[peaceboy23]

I feel like people ask this all the time, or want reassurance, but I need it now. I have been thinking too much again about the idea that i'm going crazy or something somehow BEYOND crazy where I"m completely sane but with crazy thoughts or the worst feel in the world, although that's what I get now. Is it the panic feeling, that sometimes i just feel like there is no escape from anything, my mind and body get warm, and I feel like i need to run somewhere, run away somewhere, even though I know that there is no where to go really. I KNOW that this problem is doubled by thinking about it, but i just can't stop thinking about it. I think i have some feeling that there is something that if i think about too much, i will go crazy, crack, go insane. Or I will disappear. I just feel so empty and so forsaken and like everything is completely pointless now...i don't have any happiness, really. i'm constantly worried about how i'm going to feel or what I'm going to feel. Sigh. Thanks for listening to me rant again guys

 

[rainboteers]

Peaceboy wrote: I just feel so empty and so forsaken and like everything is completely pointless now...i don't have any happiness, really. So sorry you are feeling this way and i really relate. What you wrote there is exactly how i feel. I wish i had some words of wisdom or a brilliant way to help you, but all i can offer you is all my sympathy.

I am right there with ya and it is no way to feel. Hope you start feeling better real soon, and i am sure others will relpy and offer you the wisdom and help that i cannot. :wink:

 

[yesemina]

I feel like people ask this all the time, or want reassurance, but I need it now. I have been thinking too much again about the idea that i'm going crazy or something somehow BEYOND crazy where I"m completely sane but with crazy thoughts or the worst feel in the world, although that's what I get now. Is it the panic feeling, that sometimes i just feel like there is no escape from anything, my mind and body get warm, and I feel like i need to run somewhere, run away somewhere, even though I know that there is no where to go really. I KNOW that this problem is doubled by thinking about it, but i just can't stop thinking about it. I think i have some feeling that there is something that if i think about too much, i will go crazy, crack, go insane. Or I will disappear. I just feel so empty and so forsaken and like everything is completely pointless now...i don't have any happiness, really. i'm constantly worried about how i'm going to feel or what I'm going to feel. Sigh. Thanks for listening to me rant again guys

Thank you for posting this, welcome to my world! haha. Just today I was on a run, and I started thinking about my whole experience that triggered my anxiety and DP episode, really just trying to understand what happened with the whole experience (yet again), because what triggered my anxiety and DP was sort of a complex issue. It was through meditation - and enough meditation makes you feel completely out-of-body anyway, but I thought that was good. It's like I was purposely trying to get to a higher state of being by meditation and I couldn't handle it and got extremely anxious. So, now I am the same - I periodically get worried about whether I'm going to go insane, or if i'll be anxious forever. Stuff like that. I feel empty and forsaken too, and that if I think about these things too much more I'll go insane. I'm with you as well...we need to get out of this!!! hehe.

 

[Scattered]

Same shit. It gets better, it gets worse. I'm farther in some days yet on others I feel ok. Its like being on edge, never really sure if your completely sane or just a few inches from insanity.

 

[Guest]

I have been thinking too much again about the idea that i'm going crazy or something somehow BEYOND crazy where I"m completely sane but with crazy thoughts

I get this too man. I had a particularly bad run of it tonite. I was riding in the car with my parents and I felt like I was just sitting there watching everything, just going through the motions, like I wasn't there at all. And then I started obsessing about whether this feeling meant I was crazy or not. And then I started fearing that I must already be crazy and maybe none of this real. And the cycle continues.

And what feels even more bizarre is what you said in the last part - that i'm completely sane but "beyond crazy." That's what always bothers me the most. When I'm in a state of DP/DR I'm always afraid that I'm never going to snap out of it, and that I'll stuck being sane in an insane mind. Klonopin usually pulls me out of it thankfully. But man does that feeling suck.

 

[Guest]

I got one question for you guys: One of the most uncomfortable feelings I have is right after I come back from an episode of DP/DR. At first it feels great. But then I start to think about how things were not really resolved (i.e. I still don't where "here" is, what is my identity) and I start to feel intense anxiety. It just makes me feel like shit. Maybe it's because I'm afraid of the DP/DR coming back. But it's also the fact that the reality I'm in now was exactly the same as the reality that I was in during the DP/DR. And I guess that kinda bothers me, because if they're the same then there's a chance that I could get stuck in DP/DR.

 

[Milan]

Jraffett14 I know what your talking about. The line between the two states is so close. It's very confusing and you question the whole existence and reality thing. When stuck I simply have to ignore all the strange sensations and that takes a lot of effort.

 

[Sojourner]

( 1 ) Do crazy people KNOW they are crazy?

Vote:

YES or NO

Please explain your answer.

( 2 ) If you DO go crazy, do you think you will be able to say, "Aha! I have gone crazy!"?

Vote:

YES or NO

Please explain your answer.

 

[Guest]

( 1 ) Do crazy people KNOW they are crazy?

No, not people that are truly insane.

( 2 ) If you DO go crazy, do you think you will be able to say, "Aha! I have gone crazy!"?

I believe that at some point people do notice that they are being completely irrational. You have to understand that with mental illnesses there are varying degrees. Think of the movie "A Beautiful Mind." John Nash never knew he was schizophrenic until someone actually pointed it out to him. But after that point, he knew some of the things he envisioned weren't real.

The point is that from what I infer from your questions, you're not crazy. You're just intensely afraid. And there's a huge difference. Fear and belief are two different things. The way you describe things (and I have the same problem) is that you are intensely afraid of things (i.e. of life, in a sense). And you may develop fears, such as am i crazy, i'm feeling dp/dr, that must mean i'm crazy, things look wierd, i'm psychotic. But you have to understand where all of that originated from. That originated from your fear of insanity (and life). This is what separates the "insane (such as us)" and the truly insane. We simply fear everything, they believe that their fears are reality. We, on the other hand, believe that our fears will become reality, even though they never truely do.

 

[Sojourner]

Raff,

You might want to use the person's name when you say "you" because you responded to my post and said "you," as if you were addressing me, but you were not addressing me. You were addressing someone else, the original poster, peaceboy.

At least that's what it appears happened, because *I* am not worried about being crazy, but your text addressed "you," which was me, because you were responding to MY post.

Whether people notice they have irrational thoughts or not is a far cry from being crazy and knowing. Everybody has irrational thoughts. I hope you don't think only mentally ill people have irrational thoughts. If you do think that, you are mistaken. Normal people have ALL the thoughts that DP people have, but to a lesser degree.

DPers are really not all that special. They're just like everybody else, but they probably are a bit more self-centered and immature than most. They were likely poorly parented and have to learn how to parent themselves, which is what most people learned growing up. We didn't learn that then, and have to learn it NOW.

DP is a symptom of an undisciplined mind. It's not a disease. It's a defect in thinking caused by a lack of proper parenting and/or education.

We've been screwed and we are the only ones who can fix it. One key is not seeing ourselves as very different from anyone else. We are not any different than anyone else except that we are less developed! We just have to catch up to the rest of the world who "gets" it.

The secret is that all human consciousness IS weird, IS odd, IS scary, but like children who no longer see monsters in the pile of laundry in the semidarkness, we have to find BETTER THINGS TO DO than sit and conjure up things to scare us.

We are not victims of a disease; we are just mentally childish.

 

[Guest]

Sojourner, we have to remember one thing: we're doing the best we can here and nobody wants to be told that there is nothing wrong wtih them except that they're being childish. True?

Also, you have some very profound religious beliefs and you certainly wouldn't want someone saying they are merely childish and weak. We are all at different places on the continuum of what defenses we need and how we cope.

You've managed to get out of your dp, but you say you still have the potential for depression inside. You certainly wouldn't want someone to tell you that you have nothing to be depressed about and that you're just being a baby.

Since I also come from a psychological bent, as you do, I agree that in many respects we ALL create our own mental symptoms, but the meaning behind "we create it" is very complicated. Part of the mind creates reactions to other variables, and in the end, we are not aware at all that we are the man behind the curtain pulling the levers.

What often happens when people recover is that they harbor so much rage against their "weaker" self (who was ill) that they can become very aggressive against the people in the world still suffering. Sadly, this is even pretty common in therapists! It's a "that's not me anymore" kind of grandiosity that takes no prisoners in being critical of people who are struggling. In reality, we are all struggling, and we all have blind spots. When we're too aggressive about someone ELSE's blind spots, we may be desperately trying to avoid questioning our own.

We have to remember that each person moves uniquely through this maze and one person's REAL issue is someone else's "childish indulgence."

Peace,
Janine

 

[Guest]

Peaceboy,
I recognize all your obsessions there and trust me, I lived with those fears most of my life.

The main thing you should try to face is that there is NEVER going to be enough "logic" to make you feel the kind of reassurance you're seeking. Ultimately, those obsessions are fueled by a deep fear of any uncertainty in life, a terror of the Unknown - and on top of that, the fear that WE are seconds away from running amok.

We fear what we could "turn into" or DO..we fear we are a serial killer in the waiting or someone who could do something equally horrific.

No amount of efforts to reassure youself that you are IN CONTROL will ever be enough, because truth is, you are much LESS in control that you want to believe (in normal ways) and NO way are you going to really lose control in the ways you fear.

We get like this, in this obsessive anxiety horror, when we are seeking unrealistic levels of self-control. And at the first "oh, my GOD see I REALLY DO NOT HAVE CONTROL" we assume that means we are also capable to running stark raving insane.

Avoiding the topic entirely is the best way out. Just don't let yourself focus for more than an instant on those kinds of fantasies (the myriad of horrible ways you MIGHT lose control, etc.). They're self-torture and they are never ever going to resolve the way you want.

As you progress and make peace (TRUE peace, not psuedo-peace, grin) with the darker and more human aspects of yourself, you will no longer be afraid of the horrible fantasies. As we get a better picture of who we really are, we are less likely to pretend we're a monster underneath -and realize we are only human.

J

 

[Sojourner]

Janine,

That word "childish" in my post ruined it -- without that, I was not criticizing anyone for being childish. I didn't mean it to come across as a rebuke -- but a fact. It's not a rebuke to say we were screwed. I didn't mean to imply that blame should be directed at one who is learning to cope.

I agree with what you say in the rest of your post, but I just wanted to clarify that by using the word "childish," I didn't intend it to be a criticism -- just an observation of a fact.

You make excellent points. I guess today was my lucky day because I have an awful lot to think about.

 

[Sojourner]

Janine wrote:

"Also, you have some very profound religious beliefs and you certainly wouldn't want someone saying they are merely childish and weak. We are all at different places on the continuum of what defenses we need and how we cope."

I don't believe I said anyone's feelings were merely childish and weak, and I frankly don't see how anyone could read that into my remarks.

I wrote, and if anything, I included myself in these observations by saying "we":

"... DPers are really not all that special. They're just like everybody else, but they probably are a bit more self-centered and immature than most. They were likely poorly parented and have to learn how to parent themselves, which is what most people learned growing up. We didn't learn that then, and have to learn it NOW.

DP is a symptom of an undisciplined mind. It's not a disease. It's a defect in thinking caused by a lack of proper parenting and/or education.

We've been screwed and we are the only ones who can fix it. One key is not seeing ourselves as very different from anyone else. We are not any different than anyone else except that we are less developed! We just have to catch up to the rest of the world who "gets" it.

The secret is that all human consciousness IS weird, IS odd, IS scary, but like children who no longer see monsters in the pile of laundry in the semidarkness, we have to find BETTER THINGS TO DO than sit and conjure up things to scare us.

We are not victims of a disease; we are just mentally childish."

----------

So, for the record, I wasn't calling anyone "childish" -- I was calling the problem itself as being "mentally childish" which is restricted to the way we think about the specific things I talked about.

But that was yesterday...and I was in STUN mode.

 

[Universal]

so how do we go about actually changing our behavior, to make it not so "childish" as you say

i don't think it's lack of education, it's like getting lost on a big trippy ferris wheel, and everyone got off when the horn sounded except you.

so it's like SORRY GUYS IM IN MY OWN FUCKED UP WORLD NOW.

anyway i feel we need to look for solutions and we need to do it collectively. that's why i said be specific as to what can help, instead us keep "giving our sympathies" which are i mean great but the fact is this is not just a disease, it's totally fucking nuts okay? like everyone one else has a personality EXCEPT you. great now what i am i gonna do, conjure up a new one out of thing air? after all these years?

 

[Sojourner]

Hi, Universal,

It's not so much that we are "childish" -- after all, how could I mean "childish" in the standard sense when we are thinking about the very things that a child's mind cannot even comprehend? So, I don't mean "childish" in the sense of being "like a child."

I mean "childish" in the sense of:

- Thinking that we are the only people who have irrational thoughts.
- Hanging onto the concept of "DP" as a badge of honor of some kind that takes away our personal responsibility for finding a solution that works for us.
- Not working collaboratively with our doctors and therapists.
- Not listening to and heeding the urgings of people who have given a roadmap and exhaustive emotional support.

I mean "childish" in the sense of not committing oneself completely to and taking charge of finding a solution.

I mean "childish" in tolerating what is very much like an emotionally abusive parent.

I mean "childish" in acting like a six-year-old victim.

I don't mean "childish" in that we ARE emotionally like children, but that with regard to DP, we are not taking charge and acting like adults.

We are not good managers of our "cases" and we have to be, because when our doctors and therapists hear no complaints and get no persistent and serious demands from us, they go on their way treating other people.

For those of us who are not working (I don't know how many aren't working), finding a solution needs to be our "job."

For those of us who are working, finding a solution needs to be our second (or our third) job.

If we were not being "childish" we would spend more time planning on how to obtain and implement a solution than we do on sharing our experiences.

Sharing experiences is good; it strengthens us. But that strength should not be used on stoically waiting for the Promised Land to arrive or on commiserating with others similarly suffering. We have to take charge of the process and use that strength to take up our weapons and fight for our lives. It certainly IS like a fight for our lives. Because nobody can live in our heads but us, nobody is ever going to know what horrors we want to slay. We have to hate the monsters enough to want to do what it takes to slay them. A child does not believe he has the strength or ability to do it. That's the "childish" I am talking about. This is a question of life or death. We need to have the awarenss that only we can take charge of this. No psychiatrist is going to stretch himself or herself to help us find a solution unless we PUSH them to. They cannot get inside our heads. They may never have experienced what we experience. My own psychiatrist has no idea what it feels like; he doesn't know depression and he doesn't know panic. I have to motivate him to help me (I'm speaking theoretically) by insisting that I need to find a REAL solution and by letting him or her know that I intend to find one, whether it is with him or her or another doctor. I would insist on a PLAN from the doctor and a timetable, and tell him or her in terms that are as strong as necessary to get across the concept that I am not going to accept spending the rest of my life this way.

Don't spend 6 months using a drug that doesn't do anything. Don't talk or read or post more than one hour a day about symptoms. Keep a journal and record your fears there but don't spend more than half an hour writing.

Also, it seems to me that understanding some basic principles are necessary. They are all here on this site and in links to other sites.

We have to be "grown up" enough to believe that we CAN do it--that we can find a solution that will work for us.

And if, for some reason, we are not able to take charge, we need to hire someone or enlist a competent family member to either work with us or be our health-care proxy for this illness only.

You see, if one sees one's doctor and goes home, and one's suffering does not lessen after 2 - 3 weeks, one may feel reluctant to "bother the doctor." But that's precisely what we must do. If we don't "bother" them, they think we are okay.

I mean "childish" in, "I am at the mercy of the big people and I can do nothing on my own. I must simply wait until my drunken father stops hitting me."

That's what I mean by childish.