Depersonalization Support Forum banner
21 - 40 of 53 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
Yes, I know it is defined as a mental disorder, but what the hell is a mental disorder? Nobody has ever been able to answer that question for me in a scientific way! Is it a material condition of the brain? If so, what is the difference between a mental disorder and a brain disease? Is it a way of classifying undesirable, disturbing, destructive or self-destructive behavior? If that is the case, why is psychiatry a branch of medicine and not a branch of the law (or is psychiatry a branch of the law)? Why are there “mental health” laws? Why can a person be treated for a “mental illness” against his will (despite the fact that there are no valid diagnostic tests for any mental illness, and treatments are underwhelming and frequently destructive), but he cannot be forcibly treated for physical illness, even when the presence of that illness can be validly identified, effectively treated, and otherwise can be fatal? Well, he can be forcibly treated if psychiatrists also testify that he is mentally disordered as well. Can you provide me a scientific definition of mental disorder that is either materialistic-mechanistic or at least descriptive and phenomenological? Why should DPDR, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, Pedophilia, and Factitious Disorders (I.e. faking or intentionally making oneself sick) belong in the same category? What do they all have in common?

The DSM-V describes mental disorder the following way:

1) A behavioral or psychological syndrome or pattern that occurs in an individual (in other words, a stereotyped pattern of thinking or acting)

2) Reflects and underlying psychobiological dysfunction (would anybody care to explain to me what a “psychobiological dysfunction” is? It sounds a lot like when Descartes incoherently claimed that the soul was a non corporeal entity that was nevertheless located inside the pineal gland)

3) The consequences of which are clinically significant (whatever that means) distress or disability (in other words, suffering or disability is a necessary condition for a mental disorder, but not for an organic disease)

4) Must not be merely an expected response to common stressors or losses, or a culturally sanctioned response to a particular event or ritual (in other words, the person who does what he is expected to is not mentally ill, but the person who acts differently or thinks for himself might be)

5). Primarily the result of social deviance or conflicts with society

The only one of those 5 descriptions that is even suggestive of a scientific medical problem is #2, and I have no idea what “psychobiological” even means. This would all be so absurd to anybody who is interested in thinking clearly, but it makes perfect sense if we understand psychiatry as as an extra-legal form of social control.

In contrast, an organic disease is “a morbid condition of the cells, tissues, organs, or physiology of an organism that is causally related to a significant reduction in that organism’s agential capacity or life expectancy.” A very straightforward scientific materialist and mechanistic definition.

In answer to your final question, becoming a threat or a nuisance to society is out of the question for us. We’ve already been denominated—voluntarily or involuntarily—as crazy mental patients. Becoming a more visible menace to society would only validate that we are crazy and likely lead to forced hospitalization and “treatment” for a non-existent disease.

To paraphrase Voltaire: clearly, if mental illness were not to exist, it would be necessary to invent it.
"A morbid condition of the cells, tissues, organs, or physiology of an organism that is causally related to a significant reduction in that organism’s agential capacity or life expectancy," describes conditions like depression, schizophrenia, anorexia nervosa, and depersonalization syndrome very well. Many people disagree because they believe in a separation of body and mind which is largely rooted in religion.

You spoke about psychiatry being a form of social control. Is education not also a form of social control? From a utilitarian perspective I don't see what's problematic about administering psychiatric treatment. There are problematic aspects of psychiatry such as perverse incentives, corruption, and human error. The necessity of psychiatric intervention is established by the fact psychiatric disorders are real problems that cause measurable harm.

The answers to your questions aren't satisfactorily scientific because they're philosophical questions.

It's possible to treat a disorder without a description of what it is down to the molecular level. Depression and schizophrenia are pretty treatable, especially if a situational or wholistic approach is taken in conjunction with a clinical one. As I said above, much lack of enthusiasm for treating DP comes from lack of proven effective treatments. It's responsible not to rush headlong into talk therapies and prescribing medications to treat a syndrome for which there "currently exists no treatment." That said, people with depersonalization usually have cooccurring problems that may benefit from lifestyle improvement or intervention.

To your earlier point, most people in this community say it's better to ride the feelings out rather than trying to stop them, maybe while seeing some clinicians. I'm reminded how many of us have cooccurring obsessive, depressive, trauma, and anxious traits. I'm also reminded of people who have DP from migraines, hormonal imbalances, and epilepsy, though they seem to be a minority here.

I hope the neurological components of psychiatric disorders are better understood in the future, not to say we have zero understanding currently.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
As an addendum, I don’t think psychiatry is going to offer us a solution to our problem. Especially since many of us got this way or became worse as a result of psychiatry’s organic interventions.

One of my favorite quotes comes from Justin Martyr, one of the founders of the Christian church (I’m not Christian, btw), but in the 2nd century AD he said the following: “By examining the patient’s tongue, physicians can often identify diseases of the body, and philosophers diseases of the mind.” In other words, the phenomena that we call bodily illnesses require an understanding of matter, whereas the phenomena we call mental illnesses require an understanding of language.

Prior to our construction of the germ theory model of disease, there were still people who got infected with microbes and became sick and died from it. But nobody at that time was suffering from obsessive-compulsive disorder—at least not that kind of OCD where a person might ritualistically wash his hands due to an obsession with germs. Because the rise and development of that form of OCD was not a result of any change in the material structure of reality, but rather it came about from a change in our collective understanding of that reality. So can anybody explain to me why our scientists have been wasting billions and billions of dollars trying to discover the causes and cures of OCD and other diseases of the mind inside the material structure of the human body?

It has always been obvious to me that most of the problems that are classified as mental disorders are not organic diseases, but are existential or moral problems and conflicts. OCD is not an organic condition. Being depressed and suicidal is not an organic condition. Excessively worrying is not an organic condition. Being selectively inattentive and hyperactive is not an organic condition. Having sex with children is not an organic condition. Faking an organic condition is not an organic condition. But feeling spaced the fuck out all day every day for years on end, senses all messed up and numbed, headaches and disorientation unrelated to present stressors or conflict? That definitely could be an organic condition. Perhaps it was psychogenic, or due to some toxin or microbe, or a concussion, or poor sleep or diet, or any number of other etiologies. But I really think if we are to have any significant results here, we really need to turn our attention towards neurology or general medicine, or something else entirely, and steer clear from psychiatry. Because inasmuch as that profession does anything that is actually medical in nature, their fundamental epistemological foundations are shitty.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
People with depersonalization are not martyrs. Other psychiatric conditions which you're calling "moral conflicts" are just as real as depersonalization. The simple fact of the matter is that science is not sufficiently advanced to solve these problems with the level of ease and success that high blood pressure or cholesterol can be treated, not unless an obvious cause such as an adrenal tumor is found. Acceptance of these facts is an important step for people with chronic, "untreatable" conditions. You talk about psychiatry making mistakes, but every field of medicine makes terrible mistakes on a regular basis, often leading to death. The brain is a complicated organ. Human consciousness and behavior are seated in the brain, and in this sense everything that happens in the mind is the result of a real, physical process. Understanding behavior is essential to understanding the brain, even if the insight behavior provides is limited. A person who is in a moral conflict such as child molestation is having a behavioral problem, as are the agoraphobic and the depressive. These are behaviors we've deemed unacceptable or maladaptive and are rooted in the brain. Without the structure and function of the brain they wouldn't exist.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
People with depersonalization are not martyrs. Other psychiatric conditions which you're calling "moral conflicts" are just as real as depersonalization. The simple fact of the matter is that science is not sufficiently advanced to solve these problems with the level of ease and success that high blood pressure or cholesterol can be treated, not unless an obvious cause such as an adrenal tumor is found. Acceptance of these facts is an important step for people with chronic, "untreatable" conditions. You talk about psychiatry making mistakes, but every field of medicine makes terrible mistakes on a regular basis, often leading to death. The brain is a complicated organ. Human consciousness and behavior are seated in the brain, and in this sense everything that happens in the mind is the result of a real, physical process. Understanding behavior is essential to understanding the brain, even if the insight behavior provides is limited. A person who is in a moral conflict such as child molestation is having a behavioral problem, as are the agoraphobic and the depressive. These are behaviors we've deemed unacceptable or maladaptive and are rooted in the brain. Without the structure and function of the brain they wouldn't exist.
You didn’t directly quote me, but I’m assuming this was a response to my post.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that I was calling DPed people martyrs. I did provide a quote from Justin Martyr who, fittingly, was indeed martyred.

Human problems are definitely real. Suffering and disability are very real. But not all forms of suffering and disability are diseases. Poverty causes much suffering and illiteracy can be very disabling; neither are diseases.

I don’t know about you, but I consider the adult who molests or rapes a child to have a moral and legal issue. He is not a sick patient. And while some consider suicide to be a moral or legal issue, I do not. I consider suicide in the abstract to be a fundamental right. But it is a very weighty existential matter to be sure. Suicide is about the meaning, value, and purpose we attach to our existence; it is not the consequence of a malfunction of neurotransmitters in the brain. That is just absurd.

I don’t think psychiatry makes mistakes; i think organic psychiatry is itself a mistake. Sure, people feel better or act better after taking antidepressants or stimulants or ECT. But it’s important to remember that lobotomy was scientifically demonstrated to be an effective treatment for schizophrenia, mania, depression, and it was also a fairly effective pain killer. It was so impressive to the scientific community that its inventor was awarded with a Nobel Prize. I’m not against drugs; I understand they can help people cope. Caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, marijuana, shrooms, lsd, cocaine and heroin can do the same. None of them are healing the brain.

I think it’s adorable whenever I hear scientists claim that the mind is an emergent property of the brain, or that thoughts are produced by the brain, or that memories are stored in the brain. Mind, thought, and memory are not things or entities or substances or processes that are created by, contained within or secreted from the brain. I would agree that the brain is the sine qua non of the mind. But it is also true that I have never seen a disembodied brain mind anything. Mind is not a positivistic construct, it is a semantic and teleological construct, and at the core of the construct of mind is not the brain but the institution of language. Minding implies agency; but science does not deal with agency or teleological explanations. Why not? Because such explanations are not testable, reproducible, falsifiable, or deterministic, which are all the core values of the scientific enterprise. And yet, it is self-evident to me that human beings are not controlled by the laws of Newtonian physics, nor are we logic machines like computers, but rather we are goal-seeking agents. So why can’t we accept that our motion is the result of how we are using language to talk about our goals and values? Because it is not scientific? And science is the one and only pathway to The Truth? If the history of ideas has taught me anything it’s that we seem to have a lot of difficulty playing more than one game at a time. Ancient persons viewed everything as agents like themselves…everything was willed, and nothing just happens. Modern people view everything as caused…there is no agency in the universe, not even ourselves. With the advent of science we made substantial improvements over our ancestors’ naïveté. I wonder how long it will be before someone comes along and corrects ours?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
I'm not quoting you directly because the forum is acting weird.

I think you borrowed some of your views from Christian fundamentalists. It's really crazy to say suicide and child molestation aren't behavioral disorders. Yes they have a moral component, but that moral component isn't any more real than the concept of a behavioral disorder, nor does something being a moral problem preclude it from being a behavioral disorder.

We can be skeptical about anything. Who's to say we aren't living in a simulation where our consciousnesses are merely computer programs? Thinking like that outside of a philosophy class is pointless and, if combined with DMT or a psychiatric break, can render a person dysfunctional. Your view on mental illness seems motivated to convince yourself that you have a neurological disorder rather than a mental illness. As I said before, mental illnesses all have neurological components. There would simply not be schizophrenia if schizophrenics didn't have something different about their brain which causes them unease. I'm not discounting that society contributes to the paranoia and discomfort of schizophrenic people, but the fact of the matter is some people's brains are schizophrenic while others are not, and this is supported by genetic evidence. Just because you don't believe science has helped you personally doesn't mean it's bunk. It might be nice to have a device the knows the brain perfectly, or maybe it would be a curse, but until then we're going to differentiate between behavioral or mental health disorders and neurological disorders.

I get what you're saying about how science doesn't leave room for teleological and human agency explanations. That's because they're religious concepts. They're especially religious in the sense that humans throughout the years have had a tendency to look at physical processes like rainfall and ask, why is this happening? They'd be especially inclined to ask why is it raining if the water flooded and killed their crops. Their answer was gods, but the gods were never real. As a formerly Christian society we give such special privileges to the concept of God that we don't give to any other concept. He's the only being we're supposed to believe in without proof.

I've heard several people say determinism is annoying, depressing, and even dangerous, but I haven't seen anyone refute it. Besides, having materialistic assumptions about life and belief in physical sciences doesn't mean one has to behave in a defeatist or immoral fashion. It's disappointed theists who temporarily become defeatist and immoral when they realize they were worshipping a falsehood.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
584 Posts
Also, it's not a definitive answer but I think I prefer to act where my donation or action is going to have the most effect helping people. And there are a lot of people who are as desperate or more desperate than most people with dpdr (at least I imagine) and who i could help more effectively. I find it a little strange that people with bladder cancer are going to donate for research about bladder cancer and people who are victim of rape are going to associations for survivors of rape. I think it would make sense to donate for the problem that i think is most important right now, but it sounds like it should be normal that people should donate for what disease they have themselves, as if they were saying "the disease that is the most urgent to treat is obviously the one I have, or have had". Personally, when it is about giving money i am more into helping homeless people, because I feel (but I might be wrong) that they must endure something terrible and at the same time that's where even small amounts of money could be very effective and are needed. I think depression is also a terrible thing and deserves a lot of attention as it is affecting many people, and a lot are not helped by treatments. Or helping victims of wars.
But at the same time if those with dpdr don't do something for dpdr few others will since most people ignore it even exists.
I have just seen a famous stand up comedian who has several mental illnesses and talks about them and owns them, and talks about his own suicide attempt for example. It's smart dark humor and he does a great job at explaining things, talking about the problems in psychiatry and reducing stigma. He is not the only one to do that, and I think that strangely enough comedians are part of the people who can make things change a bit too.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
I'm not quoting you directly because the forum is acting weird.

I think you borrowed some of your views from Christian fundamentalists. It's really crazy to say suicide and child molestation aren't behavioral disorders. Yes they have a moral component, but that moral component isn't any more real than the concept of a behavioral disorder, nor does something being a moral problem preclude it from being a behavioral disorder.

We can be skeptical about anything. Who's to say we aren't living in a simulation where our consciousnesses are merely computer programs? Thinking like that outside of a philosophy class is pointless and, if combined with DMT or a psychiatric break, can render a person dysfunctional. Your view on mental illness seems motivated to convince yourself that you have a neurological disorder rather than a mental illness. As I said before, mental illnesses all have neurological components. There would simply not be schizophrenia if schizophrenics didn't have something different about their brain which causes them unease. I'm not discounting that society contributes to the paranoia and discomfort of schizophrenic people, but the fact of the matter is some people's brains are schizophrenic while others are not, and this is supported by genetic evidence. Just because you don't believe science has helped you personally doesn't mean it's bunk. It might be nice to have a device the knows the brain perfectly, or maybe it would be a curse, but until then we're going to differentiate between behavioral or mental health disorders and neurological disorders.

I get what you're saying about how science doesn't leave room for teleological and human agency explanations. That's because they're religious concepts. They're especially religious in the sense that humans throughout the years have had a tendency to look at physical processes like rainfall and ask, why is this happening? They'd be especially inclined to ask why is it raining if the water flooded and killed their crops. Their answer was gods, but the gods were never real. As a formerly Christian society we give such special privileges to the concept of God that we don't give to any other concept. He's the only being we're supposed to believe in without proof.

I've heard several people say determinism is annoying, depressing, and even dangerous, but I haven't seen anyone refute it. Besides, having materialistic assumptions about life and belief in physical sciences doesn't mean one has to behave in a defeatist or immoral fashion. It's disappointed theists who temporarily become defeatist and immoral when they realize they were worshipping a falsehood.
Are you really trying to tell me that the view that raping a child is immoral is an idea that I could only have gotten by crazy Christian fundamentalists? Is that seriously what you were suggesting? Most people do talk to themselves using a moral discourse, and it is important that they do so, unless of course, they don’t care about how their behavior affects others. And it is the moral discourses that we are using that prevents us from acting in bad ways. The scientific perspective encourages us to understand bad behavior as the necessary consequence of antecedent events in our lives, promoting the idea that we are not responsible for what we do. And since liberty and responsibility are two sides of the same coin, if we refuse to consider ourselves responsible, the entire enlightenment philosophy of political liberty goes out the window with it.

This idea that the pedophile cannot control his actions is ridiculous. As a gay man, I find myself powerfully attracted to every halfway decent looking guy I see. But I am not compelled to have sex with all of them (or any of them for that matter), and certainly not against their will. I have been very dismayed by the rhetoric the lgbt community has been employing in an attempt to secure our rights. After all, what is the gay anthem? Lady Gaga’s “Born this Way.” This is who I am, it’s in my genes, it’s in my DNA, I can’t help it, I can’t control myself! I didn’t choose to be gay, you do not choose who you love. Well let me just say that I choose to be gay, and this is what I mean by that: I many not have chosen (willfully) the “inspiration” behind my gayness; I may not have chosen the sense that I experience myself as passive regarding my attractions toward other men. But I did choose to acknowledge that experience, I did choose to accept it, and validate it by coming out, and I also chose to seek out affectionate, romantic and sexual experiences with other men because I found meaning and value and purpose in those experiences. And I also choose to love the person I’m with, because love is a choice.

I think that it is silly that many of us believe that, in 1973, when the APA removed homosexuality from its Index of Prohibited Behaviors, that this was due to some new scientific discovery, that we had made some great advance in the field of homosexuality studies! Do you honestly believe that we learned something phenomenologically about homosexuality in 1973 that we did not know back in 2000 BC? It’s the same thing now that it was back then; we knew what it was then, and we know what it is now, that hasn’t changed hardly at all. What has changed recently is we began to judge it differently. Homosexuality is not a scientific issue; it is, and always has been, a moral or ethical or legal or social or existential or aesthetic issue, and yet we concealed all of those judgements behind a highly medicalized discourse. In former times when people said the homosexual was sick what they meant was that they found his behavior to be morally or ethically repulsive, or perhaps they meant he was sick in his social functioning because he did not devote his life to making babies, or perhaps they just meant that the idea of two men being intimate was kind of icky, and it made them sick. But then the psychiatrist comes along and, impressed by this verbiage he says to himself “I think he’s really sick! Yeah he’s definitely a sick individual indeed, very sick…well except, it’s a bit of a different kind of sickness though. It’s more of like a…I don’t know…it’s more of like a mind sickness (yeah that’s it, that’s right) his mind is what is sick; he has a sickness of the mind; he as a disease in his mind. We did not discover in 1973 that homosexuality was not a mental illness, and the reason why I know that is because there is no such illness.

We have been operating under the assumption that we either have free will or we are determined, and that question would eventually be resolved through more and better philosophy, technology, or science. But I think that is an error. Free will and determinism are not conclusions at all, they are premises. If we are to undertake a scientific understanding of man we must assume that he is determined; if we are to undertake a moral or existential understanding of man, we must assume that he has free will. Sam Harris, a neuroscientist who does not believe we actually have free will, has nevertheless incoherently constructed his own moral system grounded in the concept of wellbeing. But if free will is an illusion, then morality is a nonsensical idea. But Sam Harris is a terrible philosopher, which is also why he doesn’t realize how terrible his moral system actually is (involuntary euthanasia would be moral under Harris’s system, assuming that killing that person passes a cost/benefit analysis). Medical ethics generally is awful, as truth-telling nor respecting the patient’s desires are core tenets of medical ethics.

Science itself is grounded in certain basal assumptions, one of which is the rejection of solipsism. Scientists have not proved that material structures exist, but they assume so because we perceive it to exist, and because we don’t have a particularly good reason to think that it does not exist. I accept that I have free will as a basal assumption also because I perceive that we have it and (the pretentions of the behavioral sciences notwithstanding) I don’t have a particularly good reason to think that I do not have it.

It seems to me that there are at least two ways we can seek to understand ourselves and the world around us. I can look at that glowing ball of light in the sky and talk about its motion in mechanistic terms or in teleological terms (but I think the mechanistic understanding is better). Similarly, I can talk about my own motion in mechanistic terms or teleological terms. I could understand my present problems as the necessary consequence of antecedent events in my life, the result of a combination of genes, heredity, structure, upbringing, a narcissistic mother and absent father; or the result of systemic structures of racism, sexism, homophobia or any other form of discrimination, and spend the rest of my life cursing the persons, systems and structures that made me who I am. Or I can examine the language that I am using to talk to myself today, try to figure out what is working for me and what is not working for me, allowing me to change that which I can and accept that which I cannot, and make a commitment to maximizing my own happiness according to my own self-defined goals and values. And so I would like to ask those of you who do adopt the proposition that science is truth and therefore free will must be an illusion: do we really not have that choice?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
"A morbid condition of the cells, tissues, organs, or physiology of an organism that is causally related to a significant reduction in that organism’s agential capacity or life expectancy," describes conditions like depression, schizophrenia, anorexia nervosa, and depersonalization syndrome very well. Many people disagree because they believe in a separation of body and mind which is largely rooted in religion.

You spoke about psychiatry being a form of social control. Is education not also a form of social control? From a utilitarian perspective I don't see what's problematic about administering psychiatric treatment. There are problematic aspects of psychiatry such as perverse incentives, corruption, and human error. The necessity of psychiatric intervention is established by the fact psychiatric disorders are real problems that cause measurable harm.

The answers to your questions aren't satisfactorily scientific because they're philosophical questions.

It's possible to treat a disorder without a description of what it is down to the molecular level. Depression and schizophrenia are pretty treatable, especially if a situational or wholistic approach is taken in conjunction with a clinical one. As I said above, much lack of enthusiasm for treating DP comes from lack of proven effective treatments. It's responsible not to rush headlong into talk therapies and prescribing medications to treat a syndrome for which there "currently exists no treatment." That said, people with depersonalization usually have cooccurring problems that may benefit from lifestyle improvement or intervention.

To your earlier point, most people in this community say it's better to ride the feelings out rather than trying to stop them, maybe while seeing some clinicians. I'm reminded how many of us have cooccurring obsessive, depressive, trauma, and anxious traits. I'm also reminded of people who have DP from migraines, hormonal imbalances, and epilepsy, though they seem to be a minority here.

I hope the neurological components of psychiatric disorders are better understood in the future, not to say we have zero understanding currently.
I apologize for not responding to this sooner as I only now saw it posted.

Depression, Schizophrenia, and Anorexia are not organic structural conditions. How do I know this? Because they are defined by psychiatry only by their characteristic behaviors. Moreover, the DSM explicitly states that the diagnosis of those conditions should not be made if the problem is better understood as the result of a known organic condition. In other words, most DSM diagnoses cannot be organic structural problems, by definition. I would also argue with the whole “causally related” part. A person might have an organic condition that makes their life crappy so they then decide to end their own life. But his suicide is not causally related to his disease.

The separation of ourselves into mind and body is not a purely religious idea; I’m not sure where you keep getting this idea that everything that is not science is religious superstition. Enlightenment philosophers, including Immanuel Kant (the philosopher who provided the foundations for the scientific revolution) also made that distinction. But as I already stated in previous posts, the distinction between mine and body is not empirical it is conceptual.

Yes, education is a form of social control, especially at the primary level. Children need to be coerced at that age in order to achieve a basic level of competence with the symbols and systems our society uses so he can have the tools necessary for surviving or thriving. Education does not pretend to be something that it is not.

I have to very strongly disagree with your utilitarian ethics about psychiatry though. Perverse incentives, corruption, and human error are problems for psychiatry and those who believe in it to figure out for themselves, just as “heretical beliefs” are problems for religions and their practitioners. But psychiatric treatment is not justified by the fact that they are real problems that cause measurable harm; it is justified by the client’s informed consent to treatment. If a person has violated somebody else’s rights he should be punished humanely by the criminal law, and if he has not, then he should be left alone to his suffer from his own errors, and if the rest of us do not agree with his choices we must be satisfied with our power, limited though it may be, to convince him to change his mind.

Sure, it’s possible to treat a problem without knowing much about it. I could treat poverty by just giving money to poor people without having any idea why they are poor. It might make me feel better, and it might make that person happy at that time, but the long-term results of that treatment might make both me and those persons worse off. Antipsychotics and ECT can be effective “treatments” for psychosis and depression, but they both are destructive to the body, especially over the long-term. But the question is: are the people receiving these generous “treatments” fully informed and fully voluntary patients? Most of the time, the answer is no.

I have no problem with people deciding whatever course of action is most meaningful to them, I simply express my own ideas on the topic and might challenge others’ ideas. But the foundational premise of organic psychiatry is that undesirable, uncomfortable thoughts, ideas, feelings, sensations, and behavior (only if they are “clinically significant” of course) are the result of some malfunction of the structure or function of the brain. Yet that premise is widely unquestioned by most because it is “backed by science.” And so a lot my responses focused on science not because I believe science is prima facie invalid, but because I don’t see any reason to assume that the positivistic approach is necessarily the best one. The best materialist models of human behavior are not only terribly complicated and unparsimonious, but their predictive power is only a little bit better than chance. But perhaps scientists are right, the behavioral sciences are still in their infancy (I don’t buy that excuse at all). But if that is the case, maybe we should at least wait until the mental sciences become responsible adults before we give them so much damn authority over our lives.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
The DSM doesn't claim mental disorders have zero basis in physical reality. You're basically twisting it to support your argument. It says we endeavor to diagnose schizophrenia as a mental disorder with behavioral markers. This doesn't preclude schizophrenia from having neurological components or even an entirely neurological basis. All mentation has a neurological basis because no one has ever had a thought without a brain in their head.

Far as what you said about child abuse, you're engaging in this false dichotomy where child abuse is either a moral or behavioral problem. It is positively both. To claim it is merely a moral problem suggests child abuse would be rational and advantageous were it not so morally hazardous. We're off topic now because this has very little to do with whether or not mental illnesses exist as valid brain disorders.

You said clinical psychology is oppressive. This is true in many circumstances, such as homosexuality formerly being in the DSM, but that doesn't preclude disorders like PTSD or schizophrenia from existing. It's almost tangential to your point.

You suggested that belief in mental illness is itself morally hazardous because it causes people to view themselves as victims and be defeatist. This is a potential downside to believing in mental illness and something clinicians should seriously consider before giving their patients gloomy or negative prognoses. However, this problem doesn't negate the whole utility of mental illness as a concept.

Psychology and thoughts about how physical processes can influence the mind date back to ancient times. Disorders like depersonalization seem to have been described since the early modern era. Mental illness isn't merely a modern invention designed to screw people up and erase their morality.

What I'm trying to do is argue for the value of believing in some sort of reality. To simply choose our belief systems based on how they make us feel is delusional. Is epistemological responsibility not a moral? I admit there can be any number of things wrong with concepts like PTSD or schizophrenia, but I'm not a proponent of throwing them away just because of how they make me feel.

People experiencing psychosis sometimes think their brainwaves and thought patterns can be read by outside forces. How does believing mental illness is a fake, arbitrary concept help them? Have you ever been to a mental ward and met the more severe patients? There's the manic person who can't modulate their behavior, the severe depressive who can't get out of bed and wails instead of talking or eating, and so on. You said in another thread something like, "Reality testing cannot fail if you're true to yourself." For some people, being true to themselves might involve committing suicide, homicide, or self harm to avoid an imagined catastrophe that is part of their delusions. I'm honestly a little concerned for your reality testing and that of our entire society as large swathes of the population become stranger and more isolated.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
The DSM doesn't claim mental disorders have zero basis in physical reality. You're basically twisting it to support your argument. It says we endeavor to diagnose schizophrenia as a mental disorder with behavioral markers. This doesn't preclude schizophrenia from having neurological components or even an entirely neurological basis. All mentation has a neurological basis because no one has ever had a thought without a brain in their head.

Far as what you said about child abuse, you're engaging in this false dichotomy where child abuse is either a moral or behavioral problem. It is positively both. To claim it is merely a moral problem suggests child abuse would be rational and advantageous were it not so morally hazardous. We're off topic now because this has very little to do with whether or not mental illnesses exist as valid brain disorders.

You said clinical psychology is oppressive. This is true in many circumstances, such as homosexuality formerly being in the DSM, but that doesn't preclude disorders like PTSD or schizophrenia from existing. It's almost tangential to your point.

You suggested that belief in mental illness is itself morally hazardous because it causes people to view themselves as victims and be defeatist. This is a potential downside to believing in mental illness and something clinicians should seriously consider before giving their patients gloomy or negative prognoses. However, this problem doesn't negate the whole utility of mental illness as a concept.

Psychology and thoughts about how physical processes can influence the mind date back to ancient times. Disorders like depersonalization seem to have been described since the early modern era. Mental illness isn't merely a modern invention designed to screw people up and erase their morality.

What I'm trying to do is argue for the value of believing in some sort of reality. To simply choose our belief systems based on how they make us feel is delusional. Is epistemological responsibility not a moral? I admit there can be any number of things wrong with concepts like PTSD or schizophrenia, but I'm not a proponent of throwing them away just because of how they make me feel.

People experiencing psychosis sometimes think their brainwaves and thought patterns can be read by outside forces. How does believing mental illness is a fake, arbitrary concept help them? Have you ever been to a mental ward and met the more severe patients? There's the manic person who can't modulate their behavior, the severe depressive who can't get out of bed and wails instead of talking or eating, and so on. You said in another thread something like, "Reality testing cannot fail if you're true to yourself." For some people, being true to themselves might involve committing suicide, homicide, or self harm to avoid an imagined catastrophe that is part of their delusions. I'm honestly a little concerned for your reality testing and that of our entire society as large swathes of the population become stranger and more isolated.
I apologize for the delay in my response, as these conversations take a lot out of me and my attention, awareness, and cognition are severely impaired in great part because I uncritically accepted the claims my psychiatrists were making about my condition as “scientific truth” and allowed them to administer poly pharmacy and to give me a total of 20 epileptic seizures in an attempt to electrocute the “suicidal ideations” right out of my diseased mind-brain. So my writing style may not be as cogent as it was prior to my brain damage, and I ramble quite a bit, but this does not mean that my “reality testing” is impaired as you so graciously suggested.

You said “To simply choose our belief systems based on how they make us feel is delusional.” Inspired by this quote, I spend a fair amount of time reading about “delusions” from various psychiatric sources, and I suggest, if you are actually interested, that you do the same, because it was quite enlightening and revealing.

So what is a delusion? Richard Dawkins wrote a book called “The God Delusion.” What did he mean by that? Was he saying that theists have a brain dysfunction? Do you believe that most of the people who have ever lived have dysfunctional brains? Or was Dawkins saying something along the lines of: “According to my own scientific mind, there is no empirical evidence that any god exists or has ever existed, and good logical reasoning suggests that the existence of God is either impossible or highly improbable. Yet still, in the 21st century, this false belief is still widely held.” Why do so many people still believe in God? The answer is obvious: because they find meaning, value, and purpose in that belief.

Now, psychiatrists do not classify belief in God as a symptom of mental disorder partly because they could never get away with it. But it’s not because they respect religious delusions, as they do classify some religious ideas as delusions. So how do psychiatrists identify delusions that are symptoms of a mental disorder? There are essentially two requirements. First, they must be idiosyncratic, that is, they must not be derived from his general culture or social group. In other words, his belief was derived independently of the suggestion of others. However, academics and scientists often develop ideas and theories that are rejected—indeed, mocked and derided—by their peers and society generally. But those people are usually not considered mentally disordered. Because the second criteria is that the belief must be bizarre and “un-understandable.” What does that mean? It means that the belief or claim was not derived by some normal, comprehensible error in empirical observation or logical reasoning. I’m other words, it is a belief that is not the product of a scientific kind, and therefore is not amenable to change by correcting his errors. Ergo, it must be due to some malfunctioning in his brain.

But just because a person makes a claim that is not scientifically derived does not mean that he has no reason at all? Your suggestion that I might be lacking “reality testing” because my ideas are not premised on the proposition that Science is Truth is incredibly arrogant. You suggested in an earlier post that my understanding might be due to the fact that science hasn’t helped me or made me worse. That is incorrect. I did not abandon my belief in a positive mental science because psychiatry hurt me any more than I abandoned my belief in God because Christianity hurt me. I did so because I was interested in seeking the best understanding of myself and this big world that I was thrown into, and as a result of much reading and consideration I was convinced that most (but not all) of what my religion was saying was either invalid or harmful, as well as arrogant; and I now feel the same about organic psychiatry. I understand that the domain of science is limited. The proper attitude that the scientist should take about religion, in my view, is “were God to exist, science does not have access to him (or it).” Why? Because God is generally conceptualized as as immaterial teleology, and science just does not deal with those ideas. Similarly, I think the proper scientific medical attitude was summed up by the 19th century neurologist John Hughlings Jackson who said: “Our concern as medical men is with the material body of the organism; if there be such a thing as a disease of the mind we can do nothing for it.”

I would agree that some, perhaps many, of the people who are now being diagnosed with mental disorders do have something wrong with their structures that is causing or contributing to their problems. He might have a problem with the brain or CNS for example. But that is a problem for neurologist to figure out. He might have a problem with his hormones. But that is a problem for endocrinology. Or it could be an issue for the immunologist or pulmonologist, or cardiologist, or gastroenterologist or ENT, etc. What is psychiatry’s domain? All know organs and systems of the body are taken by other specialties? Psychiatrists are acting very stupidly by assuming that what we call “mind” is localized to the brain. Yes, the mind is “in” the brain, but it is also “in” the hands and “in” the larynx and “in“ the heart and “in” the stomach. We are not just brains in vats, we use our entire structures TO mind, and our mindings are based in how we arrive at an understanding of ourselves and the world around us.

The subject matter of psychiatry is not the brain or the body, the subject matter of psychiatry is conflict; psychiatrists deal with persons in conflict with themselves or with others. Psychiatry could be a positive science concerned with understanding human behavior mechanistically, or it could be a humanitarian enterprise focused on trying to help people with their life problems, but it cannot be both. And in my view, psychiatry has been making the wrong choice. Just because conflict is not a scientific concept, does not mean it is not real.

What psychiatry needs is not more funding nor do they need more scientific research. What psychiatry needs is more courage and more empathy. They need the courage to think and speak clearly about the issues they are dealing with instead of hiding behind a pretentious, semi-incomprehensible neuropsychobiological jargon. And they need to be empathetic by abandoning their DSM, stop classifying their clients with stigmatizing “mental disorders” and insist that their clients are human beings who are dealing with the problems inherent to social intercourse, and their minds are not diseased, they are suffering and struggling to cope. Psychiatrists claim that persons who are speaking in a highly unconventional idiom have a “thought disorder.” But saying that the schizophrenic has a thought disorder is like saying the Hungarian speaker has a thought disorder. Just because his utterances are not meaningful to you, does not mean they are not meaningful to him. Empathy is sorely lacking in the “helping” professions, probably because empathy, unlike testability, is not a scientific value.

To be good at helping his client, the psychiatrist does not need to analyze the motions in his brain or listen to the beating of his heart; he needs to analyze the motions of his hands, his eyes, his mouth and tongue, and listen to the meaning of his speech. And no, he doesn’t need “scientific research” to do his job effectively.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
And as a final note, if you haven’t seen it yet and have the opportunity, I would highly recommend watching M. Night Shyamalan’s 2008 film “The Happening” and then answer the following question. The characters in that movie were thinking and acting very scientifically, and so did most of the movie-going audience, according to most of the reviews and commentaries I read. But was their “reality testing” intact?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
By the way, I also fully acknowledge that my criticism of the DSM’s definitions of schizophrenia, etc, as being “not the result of an organic medical condition” was a bit tongue-and-cheek. I often use colorful rhetoric in my criticisms, as you’ve probably already figured out. I know that a lack of demonstrated pathophysiology does not mean there necessarily is none, I was simply using the authors of the DSM’s own sloppy words against them.

I do think that some of psychiatry’s conditions, including schizophrenia and autism might have for many (though probably not all) diagnosed with those problems some organic disturbance, but it does not necessarily have to be the brain. A schizophrenic, for example, might have some organic problem that establishes very uncomfortable feelings and sensations, which then results in him turning his attention heavily inward, making him self-absorbed and isolated from social and empirical reality, and after awhile he starts to develop paranoia about others, ideas about his own self-importance to boost his damaged ego, starts perceiving his own thinking with exceptional intensity and clarity (“auditory hallucinations”) and his language begins to evolve in such a way that words which used to have a concrete worldly meaning start to develop a highly metaphorical, figurative flavor (“thought disorder”). But delusions, “command” hallucinations, and unconventional speech are not the direct consequence of any brain disease.

Similarly, at the core of autism is probably (in my view) a neurological difference that directly results in a different experience of himself and reality (autistics often experience sensitivities or differences in sense perception, light, sound, and touch, for example). As a result of these differences that can make “normal” social life challenging or uncomfortable, he finds ways to cope with this by self-soothing body movements, developing intense, often intellectual interests, and limiting social interaction. But “social awkwardness” is also not the direct consequence of any organic disease. And given how autism is now, due to the heavy influence of psychiatric thinking, conceptualized as a “spectrum” with thousands of potential behavioral manifestations mild to severe, I have strong doubts that most of those diagnosed have an organic issue, and I’m not terribly confident that neurology/neuroscience will be able to validly identify the organic issue at the source of autism given how poorly these conditions have been constructed. If scientific researchers really want to try to understand the possible organic basis of these conditions, I think they need to divorce themselves from the influence of psychiatry’s megalomaniacal insistence on categorizing all human differences and problems as psychobiological dysfunctions.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
You speak about psychiatry as if it's a monolith and a stereotype, like none of the practitioners are spiritual in their personal beliefs or humanistic in their practices. This is false. I agree the field ought to have more humanism. It needs less harmful perspectives, jargon, perverse incentives, and (did you mention this one) financial corruption. It could maybe use less woo woo and pseudoscience too but that seems to be my personal gripe.

Research requires money and other resources, unless you think there will be a big movement to research depersonalization for free using no facilities, staff, or scientific instruments. A scientific instrument in this case could be a computer or a calculator. Regardless whether the field of psychiatry views the problem of mental illness exactly the way you want and gives mental illness a new name that would be more favorable to you, research requires funding and most workers expect to be paid a salary so they can live and pay their debts. Research pays significantly less than treatment and requires substantially more work.

Your perspectives on what causes schizophrenia and autism look like a reversion to psychoanalysis and kind of lack an empirical basis. Do you remember in history how psychoanalysis was the dominant mode of thought and schizophrenia was said to be caused by inconsistent parenting? It wasn't necessarily trauma that was emphasized, specifically it was inconsistent parenting. It was false, and the discovery of the genetic heredity of schizophrenia was a humiliation to the field. I can't imagine the vindication felt by scientists and doctors who believed the entire time schizophrenia was at least partly an organic condition. This isn't to say psychoanalysis offers nothing, but valid scientific approaches should compliment rather than compete with one another. Approaches with limited bases in evidence shouldn't dominate approaches with equal or stronger bases in evidence. If the approach with less evidence has value it should integrate itself rather than trying to occupy a separate reality where it can operate unchallenged. The point of socratic inquiry is to be temporarily proven more or less wrong, no to achieve absolute certainty. It is an agnostic approach.

Your analysis of the schizophrenic and autistic person places them at the same level of severity as yourself with the added caveat that they can think their way out of being mentally ill. Everyone has different levels of psychological disturbance and their own unique path to recovery that should be understood without bias. Painting everyone with the same brush is anti humanistic. You said a person cannot become psychotic if they're true to themselves. That is false, and sounds like a Christian fundamentalist.

You're also exhibiting a fallacy I don't know the name of. It goes like, "Many believers in God are sexist therefore God isn't real," or, "The field of psychiatry has many problems and abuses therefore its bases in science and philosophy aren't valid." Nobody who wants to occupy a shared reality with other humans should do this without irony.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
And as a final note, if you haven’t seen it yet and have the opportunity, I would highly recommend watching M. Night Shyamalan’s 2008 film “The Happening” and then answer the following question. The characters in that movie were thinking and acting very scientifically, and so did most of the movie-going audience, according to most of the reviews and commentaries I read. But was their “reality testing” intact?
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The plants were releasing spores that made people commit suicide. I would say the person who makes this discovery is sane, as is the person who hears the absurdity of the discovery and doubts it. There were people running around saying, "This is happening because of our sins to ourselves the planet," and presumably their intuitions were based in a variety of things such as ecological activism, religion, etc. The people with those intuitions were only so correct because they were operating with limited evidence and making assumptions. Only in the end when our main character makes the discovery about the spores do they have a satisfactory level of knowledge. The person who knows about the spores is able to convince the doubter, not the screaming zealot. Science is about taking the hypothesis (the plants are killing us) and finding evidence (it's the spores).

It's generally believed in philosophy that one can be right accidentally but that being accidentally right doesn't constitute knowledge. In medicine this is important because it's the difference between knowing a that treatment works and knowing how it works.

When I was in high school my science teacher designed an experiment to prove SPF in sunblock didn't matter. She used UV reactive beads and coated them in different SPF sunblocks. The SPF made no difference on the beads. They all changed color at the same time. "The beads aren't perfectly analogous to human skin," I said.
"It's unethical to burn human skin," she replied. Can you guess how SPF is measured? It's measured burning human skin with a UV bulb. A single mild sunburn isn't too detrimental to your health to be considered unethical. The SPF number represents how many minutes it takes for symptoms of sunburn to appear under the intense bulb.
"But I can get an hour of sun protection from SPF 15," a student said. The bulb is not perfectly analogous to the sun. The irony is not that the people in this story are mistaken but that my understanding of these concepts could also be mistaken. If it's really important to you how effectiveness sunscreen is measured you should Google it and not simply take my word for it. You might also have to doubt the Google result if it pulls the wrong answer or directs you to a dubious source. Sometimes nobody provides us with a satisfactory explanation and we have to doubt even our own assumptions.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
To be good at helping his client, the psychiatrist does not need to analyze the motions in his brain or listen to the beating of his heart; he needs to analyze the motions of his hands, his eyes, his mouth and tongue, and listen to the meaning of his speech. And no, he doesn’t need “scientific research” to do his job effectively.
I have to highlight his part of your argument because it's especially off base. Firstly, most psychiatrists prescribe medication for psychiatric disorders because they along with nurse practitioners have a largely exclusive right to do that. All FDA approved medications need to be researched, so I don't know why you're putting scare quotes around the word "scientific research." These nurses and doctors also need a strong background in pathology and physical sciences which would also not exist without research. The medications they prescribe can cause horrible physical side effects and you wouldn't want a person who doesn't know anatomy performing ECT. But this is not limited to nurses and physicians. A clinical psych doctor who may have a PsyD for example needs to comprehend scientific and mathematical concepts, how else can they be qualified to diagnose learning disabilities and do other psychometrics? It sounds like your entire concept of doctors is based on the worst and least agreeable quack you ever encountered, and perhaps he is not even getting enough credit. A mental health professional who knows nothing about science should be a social worker at best, not to deride social workers or suggest that they can't benefit from socratic dialogue.

I didn't tell you that you're out of step with reality to be insulting or mean. It happens to everyone. I created this account because there are people on this site saying so many falsehoods. It's undoubtedly normal to believe in or invent falsehoods. The one that initially inspired me was some people claiming marijuana can't trigger or exacerbate depersonalization, which is totally false.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
I'm not sure what you mean by this. The plants were releasing spores that made people commit suicide. I would say the person who makes this discovery is sane, as is the person who hears the absurdity of the discovery and doubts it. There were people running around saying, "This is happening because of our sins to ourselves the planet," and presumably their intuitions were based in a variety of things such as ecological activism, religion, etc. The people with those intuitions were only so correct because they were operating with limited evidence and making assumptions. Only in the end when our main character makes the discovery about the spores do they have a satisfactory level of knowledge. The person who knows about the spores is able to convince the doubter, not the screaming zealot. Science is about taking the hypothesis (the plants are killing us) and finding evidence (it's the spores).

It's generally believed in philosophy that one can be right accidentally but that being accidentally right doesn't constitute knowledge. In medicine this is important because it's the difference between knowing a that treatment works and knowing how it works.

When I was in high school my science teacher designed an experiment to prove SPF in sunblock didn't matter. She used UV reactive beads and coated them in different SPF sunblocks. The SPF made no difference on the beads. They all changed color at the same time. "The beads aren't perfectly analogous to human skin," I said.
"It's unethical to burn human skin," she replied. Can you guess how SPF is measured? It's measured burning human skin with a UV bulb. A single mild sunburn isn't too detrimental to your health to be considered unethical. The SPF number represents how many minutes it takes for symptoms of sunburn to appear under the intense bulb.
"But I can get an hour of sun protection from SPF 15," a student said. The bulb is not perfectly analogous to the sun. The irony is not that the people in this story are mistaken but that my understanding of these concepts could also be mistaken. If it's really important to you how effectiveness sunscreen is measured you should Google it and not simply take my word for it. You might also have to doubt the Google result if it pulls the wrong answer or directs you to a dubious source. Sometimes nobody provides us with a satisfactory explanation and we have to doubt even our own assumptions.
WARNING: SPOILER ALERT!!!

You said: “The plants were releasing spores that made people commit suicide”

Are you sure about that? What makes you believe that? Because I think that what was “happening” in that film had absolutely nothing to do with the plants. So why did you, and the characters, and just about everyone else believe that M. Night Shyamalan (director of “The Sixth Sense, Signs, and Unbreakable) believe that the characters in this 1950’s style B-horror/thriller film were—in fact!—being attacked by conscious killer plants that were emitting deadly biotoxins (which were probably also conscious) that were then interfering with the functioning of their neurotransmitters causing them to kill themselves in gruesome and hilarious ways?

I wonder how modern audiences would have responded had Shyamalan made basically the same film except in a different setting. So instead of taking place in modern day New York area let’s imagine the film took place in Medieval Europe. That movie would have began in a very similar way with a mass public suicide in the town square. Then when the towns people found out about that event, understandably disturbed by it they would have sought out an explanation. But in that movie they probably would not have gone to a scientist for an explanation, they probably would have gone to their town’s priest, or maybe even to the Pope himself. And let’s imagine that the explanation those authorities gave was that the Devil had returned to Earth, and was entering into their bodies, displacing people’s souls making them act in bizarre ways before eventually destroying his host. And the Devil was beginning the the poor, wretched blasphemers but eventually as his power grew not even the most faithful and pious will be able to resist him! And then in response to that explanation the people started freaking out, kept killing themselves and each other. And then the remaining characters continued to interpret all of those new events through the same prism as that initial explanation that they were given (after all I’m pretty sure that the characters in that movie would have noticed that the most strong-willed among them were starting to become a lot more weak-minded!)…

If the explanation for “the happening” were a theological one, do you think you and modern audiences generally would have interpreted the movie Biblically? Or do you think maybe, just maybe, you would have intuitively rejected that premise, allowing you to watch the film from an extra-narrative perspective, which would have made it a lot easier to see what was obviously “happening?”

There was a scene on that movie where Mark Wahlberg was with that girl that was entrusted into his care, and he hands to her a mood ring, puts it on her finger and then explains to her how it works: “it is scientifically proven that the mood ring will reflect whatever emotion you are experiencing. So if it’s red, that means you’re angry, and if it’s blue, that means you’re sad. Right now it is yellow, and that means you’re about to laugh!” And then, she does laugh. What was the explanation for that “happening?” Was professor Wahlberg right? Is it the truth according to science that yellow on the mood ring means you’re about to laugh? Or did she laugh because it was suggested that she would laugh? And it was suggested that she should laugh by the character that we were expected to accept as the voice of scientific authority.

During the most iconic scene in that movie, Wahlberg’s character was in that abandoned “fake” house (that really should have been a clue too) and he sees a plant in the corner with its leaves eerily moving back and forth. So he starts negotiating with it, asking him and his buddies to call off their attack, and as he approaches it he touches its leaves and arrives at the understanding that it is also fake. At that point he says: “It’s fake! I think I’ve gone insane! I’m talking to a fake plant! And I’m still doing it!” And the thing about that is, yes Mr. Wahlberg, it is absurd for you to be reasoning with a fake plant. But is it any more absurd for him to be reasoning with a fake plant then it would have been had he been reasoning with a real one?

A lot of people did comment that many of the claims that were made in that movie were a bit dubious scientifically. Good on you, I suppose, for realizing that the idea of spores acting with murderous intent is not exactly consistent with our current body of scientific knowledge on that topic. And brownie points if you were able to arrive at the conclusion that was absurd regardless of what science might have to say about it. But most people—including you—did not seem to realize that the basic premise of that movie, grounded as it was in the real-world claim that suicide is the consequence of a malfunction of neurotransmitters in the brain is also absurd regardless of what science might have to say about it.

Many of the online reviews and commentaries I read—some purportedly by actual scientists—defended the initial premise of the film as plausible, though perhaps unlikely, but the way Shyamalan did that idea just didn’t really work. Yeah, no shit it didn’t work. Shyamalan wasn’t exactly trying to make it work, he was quite clearly trying to accentuate the absurdity of it all. Did you really think that the imagery of a grown adult man voluntarily and intentionally lying down in front of an active lawn mower was suspenseful and terrifying? Or how about the guy who entered into the tiger cage in the zoo luring the animals to rip off his arms? Do you think Shyamalan, when he came up with that idea, he said to himself “oooh, now THIS is going to be SCARY!”? Or how about the fact that the characters, in response to this nature-based threat, fled from the concrete jungle of Manhattan and ended up in an exurban/rural area where they were surrounded by nature. And while they spent most of the 2nd act of the movie running through tall fields of grass with plants and trees all around them trying to escape from nature, they made a very important observation. They noticed that they were not all safe (which is what you might expect if the plants where they were hadn’t evolved yet), nor were they all becoming infected (which is what you might expect if that initial explanation were valid). Only some of them were killing themselves, and at a significantly slower rate than what was happening in the urban centers. So they realized, as any good scientific mind understands, if current observations are inconstant with your hypothesis you have to revise your hypothesis, and that’s exactly what they did. And the new explanation they arrived at was that the plants weren’t just passively emitting these pores, they had evolved to develop a substantial degree of consciousness allowing them to intentionally direct their attacks on them. But they weren’t trying to indiscriminately kill them, they just felt particularly threatened when people were congregated in larger groups, so they were trying to thin out their numbers (an explanation that probably requires their toxins to also be intentionally directing their attacks), which is why at that point they thought they might be safer if they split up into groups of no more than 2 or 3. That is the explanation they came up with for why people were killings themselves when they were in larger groups! And that was ridiculous! Almost everything about that movie was silly, stupid, and absurd! A lot of people criticized Shyamalan for his decision to cast Mark Wahlberg as the science teacher, but I thought that was a brilliant casting choice. And I would be willing to bet that Shyamalan specifically directed Wahlberg to perform that role unconvincingy, which, for Mark Wahlberg, was probably not a very difficult assignment.

Anyway, these scientists said it was plausible for plant life, in response to the threat that humans pose to their existence, to develop a defense mechanism, which might come in the form of a spore or toxin, such that when we ingest them they mess with our neurotransmitters causing a bunch of suicides. And that is ridiculous. The reason why it is ridiculous is because that interpretation at once denies agency to human beings, while at the same time it attributes agency to an abstract concept like evolution. When a person kills himself, that is not the product of a language-using agent working toward a meaningful goal. However, evolution, observing that some of her organisms are in trouble, might pull a…well, not a Deus ex Machina because that’s just silly religious superstition, right?…no evolution would pull a Natura ex Machina and graciously grant her organisms with a “defense mechanism” that they can use in their quest for survival. I have been listening to my fellow atheists spend the last several decades ridiculing religious people because they still, in the 21st century, believe in some ancient bronze-age sky daddy, while also recoiling at the horrors of the hypothesis of intelligent design being mentioned in a high school science classroom. But what they don’t seem to realize is that, when they use a term like “defense mechanism” to refer to a structural feature of an organism, they are strongly implying intelligent design. And while some of them might be aware that the narrative, teleological language that they often use to talk about evolution is metaphor or poetry, I do feel that scientists generally are very oblivious to the ways that the language they are employing influences how they are interpreting their observations.

This problem is especially pronounced in the field of neuroscience, which has a very strong tendency to reify abstractions. Not all nouns refer to persons, places or things. Some nouns, like infinity, or hug, or handshake, or mind, or thought, or memory, or (horrible dictu) gender do not refer to things at all, many of those words are best understood more as verbs, and none of those abstractions are located in our brains. There are actual neuroscientists out there who, as we speak, are trying to use their science to validate or falsify the empirical existence of all 2854 “genders” that queer theorists, gender theorists and other random persons have constructed in much the same way that a science fiction writer might construct his parallel universe. And this absurdity is squared when they try to find the neurobiology for the gender identity referred to as “non-binary.” Because the concept of non-binary contains no positive descriptive content whatsoever; what are they even looking for? Trying to find evidence of non-binary gender in the brain is just as silly as the title of Lawrence Krauss’ book, “A Universe from Nothing,” where in that book, Krauss’ own conceptualizarion of “nothing” is definitely something. Gender is not a positivistic construct, it is a presentational and performative construct. Gender refers to how a certain category of person presents themselves and moves about in the world. Non-human animals have a sex, but not a gender (unless we attribute gender to them). Our “gender” does not come from our brain, it “comes from” our language, so to speak. Certain aspects of what we call gender might, of course, be grounded in biology, but in my opinion, the part of our structures that is more closely correlated to what we call “gender” is not the differences in our brains but the differences in our hormones.

So I would like you to reflect on “The Happening,” maybe watch it again with both our interpretations in mind, and would like to ask you, which interpretation offers the better understanding of what was “happening” in that movie? Was Mother Earth engaging in biological warfare? Or was this a mass panic, and the subject matter of the film was not killer plants, but fear. My interpretation has the benefit being simple, elegant, and parsimonious. Most if not all aspects of the film, including its “mysterious” ending where the plague suddenly stopped seemingly out of nowhere, are fully explainable with this interpretation; however, your interpretation, which renders the film incoherent and meaningless, was nevertheless scientific.

When it comes to all the research you cited supposedly demonstrating that schizophrenia is a genetic condition (or that it at least has a strong genetic component), I do not deny that there is a relationship between structure and behavior, our structures certainly both limit and influence how we understand and act in the world. But i don’t agree that our structures cause our motion. Can these genetic researches offer a model that actually explains how these various genetic links they have found cause the collection of behaviors that we refer to as schizophrenia? My explanation of schizophrenia may not be valid—I fully acknowledge that—but at least it was an explanation, and it is an explanation that is at least consistent with how we understand language and behavior in the “mentally healthy” person. But psychiatrists haven’t offered anything in the way of an actual explanation, just a bunch of correlations. Why does mentally healthy behavior have reasons but mentally unhealthy behavior has causes? If Johnny sits still in class and performs well it’s because he’s a good student who wants to learn; but if he fidgets, squirms, doesn’t focus, and performs poorly, that is due to his ADHD. The “mentally healthy” defendant’s behavior is explained teleologically, whereas the “mentally sick” defendant’s behavior is explained teleologically. This position is intellectually untenable. We use the same mechanistic laws to explain why airplanes fly and why they crash; the same laws to explain the fires that heat our food as the fires that burn down half of California. But the motion of human beings seems to operate according to fundamentally different principles that just so happen to coincide with whether we judge those behaviors desirable or undesirable, as well as whether the behavior is understandable to mass modern scientific-minded people. Ours would be a very strange brain indeed if it only caused bad, idiosyncratic behaviors but never caused good behaviors that conform to social expectations.

Clearly, I think your approach to understanding is based on the proposition that science represents the transcendent values of truth, wisdom, and goodness; and I have been presenting a sustained challenge to that idea. But instead of responding directly to that challenge, you accuse me of lacking reality testing, which I think is unbecoming of someone of your intellectual sophistication. So let me just ask you the questions directly: do you adopt the proposition the the positive sciences necessarily offer the best pathway to understanding? Do you prima facie reject all other proposed ways of understanding prima facie? Should I adopt the proposition that science is truth? And if so, why?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
772 Posts
I don’t know why, but I don’t seem to have the ability to edit my posts, so I just have to make one major correction that you probably noticed: I said that our criminal Justice system, in the context Insanity and other justification defenses seeks to understand “mentally disordered” criminals teleologically, when I meant to say mechanistically.

Also, you said that at the end of the movie the main character discovered the spores. I don’t remember that part. The characters were not performing any laboratory science at all throughout the movie. They simply heard from a news report toward the beginning of the movie that scientists had discovered that the plants were responsible and then they kept interpreting the events of the movie through that prism. The conflict resolution (the end of the plague) happened after Wahlberg and Deschanel started talking about their hopes and dreams for life, and they made the decision that, come what may, they were not going to live in fear anymore. So they came out from their respective bunkers, they embraced each other, they embraced love, they embraced nature…and they were fine.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
358 Posts
I barely know anything about those movies because they came out when I was a child but I like how they were almost pre social media and inspired audiences to have philosophical debates.

If don't know if you've read my latest reply above yours. It basically answers your question what I'm trying to get at. You insist on this unusual interpretation of psychiatry which I can only describe as an Amish psychoanalyst linguist who hates science. I feel like a gun rights activist; science doesn't kill people, people kill people! It's hard to acknowledge that everyone's condition has at least slightly different causes and steps for recovery. I agree with the idea that we should be taking a more humanist approach to healing mentally ill people, but I'm not ready to burn down the hospital or overthrow the government. I'm more of a reformist. I believe humanity has made progress over the past few centuries including in the field of psychiatry. It is terrifying that gay conversion and lobotomies were performed and I think that should be taught in schools for a long time as a reminder, similar to how the holocaust is supposed to be taught and often isn't unless you're given a Jewish teacher. Humanity isn't out of the woods in terms of extreme inequities and might never be, but continual improvement should be possible.
 
21 - 40 of 53 Posts
Top