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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Finally, I've come to accept that it doesn't matter what you or I have. It doesn't matter if we can be labelled with Depersonalization Disorder or with Psychosis. What matters is our symptoms and how much they disturb us. We should be treated based on our symptoms and not on a label. Why do psychiatrists need to place a label on someone before determining which drug to treat them with? Besides, who's to say where one is to draw the line between "normal", depersonalized and psychotic? At what size is a stream considered a river? Treatment should be targeted towards the most disturbing symtpoms and not towards a disorder.

Well, I'm not one for thinking too much about diagnoses, but there are two important points here. If someone wants insurance coverage, they need a diagnosis. That's the way the law is set up and it's not going to change. Also, Uni Girl, you're applying for disablility - they can't give away money just because someone doesn't feel well....a diagnosis gives license to determine factors that result in money or insurance coverage,'s just practical.

Also, your analogy of the river only works to a point. Psychosis is NOT part of the same flowing water bed....granted most of these symptoms are on a spectrum, and a nervous breakdown exists like the river analogy - it MIGHT turn debilitating, or it might not. But it will NOT turn into psychosis...that's an entirely other animal.

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Janine, good point about the insurance and disability. You are right, a diagnosis is neccessary for these, but I was specifically referring to medications. Also with regards to the stream-river analogy, I disagree (currently... :lol: ). I believe there is a continuum of symptoms. Many DP/DR symptoms overlap with symptoms of psychosis. Add a few more symptoms or a few more feet to the width of the stream and wham, you've got a full-blown case of psychosis. And yes, these extra symptoms may never surface.

Johnny, what happens if you never arrive at a diagnosis you feel fits you? This is certainly a possibility we all must recognize. There are so many variations in what can go wrong up there in our brains. That's why I feel more emphasis should be put on treating our most disturbing symptoms and not on naming them with a disorder.

Nope, simply untrue, Uni. Yes, schizphrenics might also experience dp, but they also experience anxiety. An anxiety attack is not on the same continuum as schizophrenia, and neither is dp.

Naturally, in the GIGANTIC set of all things, then sure, every illness is somewhere on some giant continuum, but within the spectrum of "what can eventually TURN INTO what" dp and anxiety are not ever going to turn into psychosis.

A pre-psychotic person might feel dp and anxiety, but they are incidentials to the eventual state that person will reach. They don't lead to it, or cause it. It's like saying a pre-schizophrenic person has a head cold, and then develops psychosis. The cold did not lead to it, it was a secondary condition.

Psychotic states require a DIFFERENT brain chemisty than the people who post here most often have. It's clear as day to any decent psychiatrist. Three sessions, and the question of schizophrenia is answered.

I do agree that dp states can FEEL utterly insane, and most of us at some time feel like we ARE/or WERE mad. Absolutely. But feeling "as if" and BEING are entirely different.

It sounds like nitpicking, but it's one of the very few true foundations of psychiatry that therapists across the board of different theories and schools of thought all agree on.

Dreamer?? Where are you? lol..back me up. Dreamer and I disagree on the fundamentals of neurological versus psychological, but on this issue I'm positive she and I concur. My point in dragging the poor hairball into it, that this is not just "janine's perspective" - it's psychiatric general knowledge.


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I'll weigh in , I guess....

I was told by a psychiatrist that I too had a mild form of psychosis. I didnt buy it, because I knew that antipsychotics had just dumbed me down when I had tried them before. For the record, they arent a good treatment for DP. I'm saying this from a scientific and a personal standpoint. I DO believe that our symptoms overlap, and due to the fact that some people perceive themselves, others, and the world to not truly exist, we are closer to being psychotic than we like to admit. For a psychiatrist, its an easy leap to make. Because we dont lose the ability to talk about it rationally, I dont think we ever really cross the line. Besides, I'm not big on the DSM way of diagnosing. Its like those coin collecting books which help you ascertain the value of Susan B. Anthonys. Most of the appraisal is subjective. On brainscans, you can immediately tell how we differ from psychotics. Their SPECT scans look like jagged peaks - the scan isnt even recognizable as having the shape of a brain often times. If you look at the scan of a DP person, its only one or two areas with problems of perfusion or metabolism. They arent the areas which allow rational thought - they're the areas which process sublteties of reality. To be honest, I dont even think that the DSM remarks whether DP is psychotic at all.


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Dont ever worry about a diagnosis. It means absolutely nothing. Its psychiatries' way of matching the so called "disease" with the correct color pill. Keep in mind that very little about modern day psychiatry is scientific. As far as Im concerned a person could just as well wipe their ass with their diagnosis.

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hey Janine,

Nope, still unconvinced. :) I used to think the way you think but not anymore. Like I said before, there are a number of symptoms that overlap between DP and psychosis. Yes, a different type of brain chemistry is required but again, some of the brain chemistry overlaps. Antipsychotics target many of the same neurotransmitters as do anti-depressants. As I said before, I strongly agree that DP may never turn into psychosis. The symtpoms of DP that are described in scientific articles do not account for a large number of symptoms people report here. Where do those fit in? Some symptoms are certainly symptoms of psychosis althought this does not mean the person is a psychotic. It just means the person may have one (or a few) psychotic tendancies that are not described or accounted for by DP. Anyways... guess we remain divided on this. :wink:


I should have mentioned brain scans in my original post. I was going to but I forgot to. Oops. Yes, psychiatrists should look at the brain and neurotransmitter systems. When I asked my psychiatrist about SPECT scans, she seemed to think they have little validity. :( I believe brain scans are the way to go. I would jump in a car and drive myself to the Amen Clinic in an instant, if I had the cash. I feel so strongly that in order for me to get on the correct med I need to have that SPECT scan. Sorry to make this post personal.

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Per Ms. Baker's request, the Hairball weighs in: 8)

Dreamer?? Where are you? lol..back me up. Dreamer and I disagree on the fundamentals of neurological versus psychological, but on this issue I'm positive she and I concur. My point in dragging the poor hairball into it, that this is not just "janine's perspective" - it's psychiatric general knowledge.
Fortunately (or unfortunately) there is a massive post about diagnoses and labels, etc. diagnosis

I rambled on there as follows:
Regardless of whether a doctor understands the mechanism, THE
CAUSE, THE ORIGIN of an illness, a doctor can eliminate things and
come to some logical diagnosis. The diagnosis is based upon the
elimination of certain illnesses, and by the fact that many others
100s who have paraded through his/her office or a hospital, have
shown up with the same group of symptoms.

The treatment is in debate with DP/DR. But for me, I know that when
I KNEW that's what I had there were some treatment options. Granted
nothing helped until certain medications were available, but when
they were available, I tried them and some worked, gave me a better
quality of life.

Again, I always use this example... AIDS. This is my millionth

1. Some 25 years after the beginning of some heavy duty
investigation and research into AIDS (originally GRID -- Gay
Related Immune Deficiency, that was incorrect but that's how it
first looked to doctors) NO cure, NO vaccination, NO understanding
as to why a few people have HIV but don't develop AIDS, there is a
far greater understanding of how it is spread, and there are
medications that can improve quality of life, and even extend the
lives of those with AIDS. There is no cure, but it can be

2. We don't understand that little virus, but we can DIAGNOSE, we
know what we are dealing with, we know how one can get it, transmit
it, NOT get it. And the brain is far more complex than one little
vicious virus.

It isn't a perfect metaphor/analogy whatever, but w/DP/DR, anxiety
we can know what it ISN'T. We can also be relatively certain about
diagnosing mental illnesses. They fall on a spectrum, and there is
always the "Not Otherwise Specified" category, but in the main, we
have something to work with.

Someone has bipolar or they don't. Has schizophrenia (and there are
many types that can be noted -- paranoid, hepephrenia, catatonic,
etc.) or doesn't. They have OCD or they don't -- contamination
version, hoarder/clutterer, checking type, etc.

If you look at the vast combination of illnesses, a constellation
that appear in AIDS, it is astounding (various things from a skin
cancer, to thrush, to a certain type of pneumonia, etc., etc.).
But there IS a pattern, and now a bloodtest can confirm that if the
doctor believes the pattern indicates AIDS. And those who are
asymptomatic who engage in risky behaviors should have their blood
tested and will find if they are HIV positive or not and to act

With DP/DR a well trained M.D.psychiatrist can pretty quickly
(within several sessions -- with my first doctor, 1 session or 2):

1. Rule out epilepsy and brain tumors, even by observation (or if
one is suspicious of these can order neurological testing)

2. Note if one is psychotic or not

3. And generally diagnose someone with relative accuracy
and then find a plan of action after several more sessions.

I have seen 5 main psychiatrists in my day (long term) starting in
1975. The change in psychiatrists was due to moving out of state,
and in one case realizing the therapy was getting me nowhere.

Every single one of these different psychiatrists, including the
first one, saw or affirmed the presense of DP/DR. When the first
one gave me that word, I ran home to my mother's psychiatric texts,
found it, read a case study and said, "OH MY GOD THAT'S ME. THAT IS

They also all saw anxiety and depression.

They never saw psychosis of any kind, OCD, bipolar, a personality
disorder, epilepsy (I had an EEG in @1980), a tumor (CAT scan in
@1980) ... went through the DSM-IV in their heads and from their
training and they saw I had none of the illnesses in there save
chronic DP/DR, anxiety, and depression.

They then had a basis for a treatment plan which included
medication and talk therapy and later CBT.

There are a limited number of choices really in psychiatric
illness. There is a spectrum within these illnesses, each patient
can be unique, have different severity, different responses to
treatment, etc. But if you look in the DSM-IV (the latest version
which is now 10 years old) you can see what you DON'T have and what
you DO have.

Perhaps this seems too simple. But for me, once I knew what
diagnosis I had I felt tremendous relief, even though there is no
specific treatment for my DP/DR. There has been help for my
depression and anxiety.

A psychiatric diagnosis is really far from voodoo. But one needs a
good well-trained M.D. psychiatrist and you can get a clear picture
and treatment plan. Whether the cause is known, or the treatment is
effective is moot. At least you know what you've got.
It is highly unlikely, if not impossible, that anyone here has any
illness that is not described or "labeled" in the DSM-IV, or the
Merck Manual, or the ICD-9 ... the latter, an International
Classification of Diseases, and I think they are on Number 9 now,
so don't quote me.

If I had a severe headache that lasted
several days, I would go to a hospital, and they could rule out
potential aneurysm or stroke, brain tumor, etc. and find the proper
treatment. The treatment might not be effective. Why this came upon
me might not be clear, but the diagnosis would then help the doctor
treat the condition in the proper way.
In summary, Dreamer believes in diagnoses. Dreamer believes that psychiatric disorders are medical. But that doesn't change the effect of Nature/Nurture, etc. I won't go into my lecture. 8)

Also, we have psychological problems, cognitive problems, and symptoms of various kinds that limit us socially or occupationally.

Also, DP/DR can accompany most if not all mental illness including GAD, OCD, depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, as well as seizure disorders, stroke, brain tumor and brain injury.

DP/DR as a disorder in and of itself -- alone, no other symptoms -- seems to be very rare (per the IoP). It seems to be rather common as a chronic or recurring problem in many of us here with anxiety disorders.

I think I'm repeating myself.

Yes, Janine, there is a Santa Claus, I mean, I believe in diagnoses and DP/DR is a very different breed of hairball that schizophrenia![/b]

Peace on Earth
Good Will To All
Now watch, this won't post.

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Dear UniG,
I will be brief... I hope... as I wish to watch "Medium" :shock: in a few.

I agree with Janine. The symptoms of DP/DR are not psychotic. We say we feel "AS IF" we are ghosts, "AS IF" our heads are full of cotton. The problem with someone experiencing psychosis is they will say "I AM A GHOST" "I AM THE POPE" "A VOICE IS TELLING ME TO KILL MY SISTER."

Very HUGE distinction.

DP/DR can by SYMPTOMS that come along with psychosis, and there are many types of psychosEs -- a schizophrenic has psychotic episodes, as well as cognitive impairments, and even (as I recently read) an inability to SMELL things... an olfactory disability. It is a whole other ball of wax.

Someone with OCD can also have sypmtoms of DP/DR. They are not psychotic, and will never become psychotic.

OK, my TV show is coming on, LOL.

I will say, I have read most if not all of the DSM-IV and the DSM-III-R

Diagnoses change and are honed over the years as with ALL MEDICAL ILLNESSES.

Gotta go. This show is about a guy who is executed and then his ghost is supposedly continuing his killing spree :shock:
OK, I'm done.
Nite 8)

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

I cannot agree more with the following: The symptoms of DP/DR are not psychotic. Not sure why you came up with me thinking DP = psychosis. Yes, those with DP/DR have intact reality testing whereas those with full-blown psychosis do not. But, again, it is true that there are symptoms of DP that overlap with psychosis and vice versa. How could it be that many here have symptoms that are not accounted for by the descriptions of DP seen in scientific articles and the DSM, but are similar to symptoms of psychosis, ie. thought disorders? To me there is a clear overlap, but remember that I am in no way saying someone with DP is psychotic. Basically, what I am saying is it's difficult to make a distinct cut-off between two disorders at times. That's all. :wink:

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"Medium" was a let down.
I'm still trying to find a way to reply, and I also don't understand why my URLs don't work

That thread was about SoulBrotha getting a scan or something, and... oh I wish we could all sit down and have a conference. The only way to figure this out.

I recall reading an article, somewhere... Pubmed maybe. A schizophrenic individual was being treated (for say hallucinations and hearing voices) with some medication. An anti-psychotic I believe -- makes sense :?
OK, it relieved some of his symptoms, but he began to experience DP/DR -- he described the sensations in such a manner that the doctor recognized the symptoms as DP/DR. The schizophrenic individual wanted off the meds. He preferred hearing voices to feeling DP/DR which indeed went away when the medication was removed. The schizophrenic individual found the symptoms of DP/DR so unbearable. He preferred keeping the voices and going off that particular med.

I'll find that article somewhere again. Where I don't know.

I agree there are subtle differences in how people express how they're feeling, but I truly believe, or rather I think I have the following grasp on this:

DP/DR is a very specific perceptual shift, just like deja-vu is a perceptual shift. It can be fleeting, cyclic, or chronic. It can cause more or less disability, depending on each case.

This perceptual shift, yes, is on the same pathway in the brain, no doubt ... whenever any person experiences it ... the same "areas of the brain light up", or a certain "galvanic skin response is detected" or however we want to measure this. (And we aren't at a stage where we can measure DP/DR very accurately as I undertand it.)

However, if I, Dreamer with GAD, depression, and some borderline traits also experiences DP/DR. That's it. I really don't have cognitive impairment re: reality/insight/thought processing that is the hallmark of psychosis.

I'm no expert. This is my POV. At any rate, I think I used this analogy before:

One can sneeze. There must be a sneeze center in the brain.
1. If a neurosurgeon poked your "sneeze center" you'd sneeze
2. If you had a cold you might sneeze
3. If you had an allergy you might sneeze
4. If you smelled too much perfume you might sneeze

All of these pathways are the same, but the starting point, the precipitating factor is different.

When someone has schizophrenia, or a psychotic episode that includes DP/DR. I suppose I might consider DP/DR to be a sneeze as a part of the whole cold. Schizoprhenia is the cold, DP/DR a sneeze, hearing voices a cough.

Oh boy, I'm running out of analogies and metaphors.

We may be talking about the same thing, or not, LOL.

At any rate, you're correct, DP/DR is not psychosis, but I also don't see it on a spectrum, or your river analogy.

Finally. We know that medications that treat one illness are found to treat many illnesses. I.E. Neurontin is effective in treating some people on the board here (I know one personally) for DP/DR -- it's gone. He no longer experiences it. Neurontin is also used as an anti-convulsant. I believe it is also used as a mood stabilizer. It also has a new use -- it helps women having severe menopausal symptoms.

So then a drug, can work on different areas of the brain, and cause various effects, some good, some bad. Some treat symptoms, some cause side effects.

OK, I've dug myself a FINE large hole.

And, I am not an expert. This is how I see my disorder.
And as usual, I could be full of hogwash. 8)
Peace Unigirl, I wish I were back in uni. Really the best years of my life. I want to be a student forever.
D :)

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Hey, the URL worked that time.

And yes, I am a diagnosis fanatic :shock: a "lableler" sp? :shock:

What is important. I like to "organize things" in my head to understand them. That's all diagnosis is. Like taxonomy -- classifying animals and plants. Why do we distinguish between a blue-footed booby and a red-footed booby? Why did Darwin examine the smallest difference in finches? Why did Kinsey find all 2 million species of wasps or whatever they were? Because there are differences, even the most subtle makes something unique. :wink:

OK, I'll stop. I believe in diagnoses, imperfect as they are, and we are all unique and should be seen as unique cases as none of us can be pidgeonholed, but we can have a general sense of what ails us. Then we can move on experimenting what might help us. Therapy, meds, lifestyle changes, etc.

But labels/diagnoses in psychiatry -- they should not be stigmatizing. That is something society as a whole hasn't caught up with, and may never catch up with. That makes me very angry.

D 8)

Damn, that was so impressive, I'm almost tempted to help you move.

and to UniGirl:

How could it be that many here have symptoms that are not accounted for by the descriptions of DP seen in scientific articles and the DSM, but are similar to symptoms of psychosis, ie. thought disorders?
I'm one of those people, too...I absolutely had delusional thinking, but paranoid delusions are a separate commodity from psychosis. The distinction you make is a very good one - and you're right, that very often but not always, we see additional symptoms that cluster around dp. Those often (but not always) include delusions, paranoid suspicions, obsessive thinking and obsessive/compulsive behavior. Those fall under delusional ideation, but not thought disorders. A thought disorder, in the psychotic definition of the term, involves a LITERAL break with reality in reaction to powerful emotional stimulus.

The person with delusions, and there are many out there working in offices right next to you, lol.....know to keep their delusions quiet in mixed company. They may FULLY and completely believe they were abducted by aliens, but they refrain from sharing that at company meetings. The psychotic has NO sense of appropriate guile around his/her thought disorder and will tell anyone around that the aliens are in the yard. That lack of self-observing ego is one of the benchmarks of psychosis.

The delusion is "state dependent" in the sense that it is ONE (or a small handful of related) delusion that is held onto with dear life. But that one unreal belief stays compartmentalized from the rest of their sense of reality. Its also one of the reasons delusional thinking is so hard to treat.

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Dreamer said:
The schizophrenic individual found the symptoms of DP/DR so unbearable. He preferred keeping the voices and going off that particular med.
Okay now this totally freaks me out.

I spent nearly two weeks in a psyche hospital a little over a decade ago (after a sui*** attempt, which is another thread), and I remember seeing schizophrenics screaming in horror at imagined threats.

And I remember pitying them deeply because I thought they looked like they were in hell.

But if a schizophrenic trades symptoms with me for even a little while, they want the schizophrenia back?!

I really don't know how to feel about this.


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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Eek. Too much for me to catch up on here. Thanks for your opinions... they are always appreciated. :wink: Oh, and I'm actually not at uni. I'm taking a break and attempting to get better, not that I haven't been doing that for the past 10 years but heck, it's worth another shot... I guess. By the way, I just had to add :) different species exist because there is a huge difference between them: they are not sexually compatible. They cannot mate- not sure if I'd call this a subtle difference. Easter chocolates call...later!

I have some problems with the definitions....

For my case, I've never been diagnosed schizo or psychotic, and I've seen 3 psychiatrists (one, 1 time, a the emergency; one (1 time) for the unsurances; and my current, since 2 years). Diagnosis :1 (first psychiatrist) panick attack 2:GAD, socia phobia, dp disorder, depression 3: major depression, severe anxiety and bouts of dp caused by anxiety.

I have talked by the phone with some psychiatrists, a few times, and the never told me I was psychotic. I have seen my family doctor many times, and she never told me I was schizo.

Still, I have big trouble not to think I am becoming crazy. I sometimes would like to be psychotic, because they are meds for that.

My symptoms who are very debilitating are :
1-Time distortions (always feel like I did things like hours ago, or it's not really me who did it)
2-Always feel like a part of myself is dead, I miss myself, but I feel like I don't know me anymore, and it's frightening me
3-Extreme tiredness
4-Depression, I cry all the time, I miss my life, and don't understand why it happens
5-Derealization : I always feel like I don't see clearly, or I am besides reality, or not there, or the world is there, and I am not grounded, in it. Also, I feel like so depressed sometimes, I look at the sky and it seems menacing, even thought it's sunny out there, for me, it's terryfing, sad.
6-Memory problems
7-Feeling slow mentally; I hvae big trouble with organization of my day, thinking forward, thinking of what I will do tomorrow, what I just did, I always am in a fog
8-Flashes of the old reality who make me cry so much
9-No motivation at all, I feel like I am under water.

I always battle so much to keep me going since 2 years, I battled so much, I was more energic, now it's like I've lost the fight... I would prefer to be schizo and not be aware of this pain... if a doctor tell me to try anti-psychotics, I will do it, but I know my life will be over, because I don't trust that, and I know it wont make me more there, more me.

Please if someone can tell me what to do with those symptoms (DR!!!!! and dissociation) tell me. I am tired.

And sorry if I made this post personal


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Dear Karine,
I don't know you, but everything you describe basically fits all of my diagnoses.

1. GAD - this can cause a lot of intrusive negative thinking, depression can come with it, also exhaustion from being anxious all the time. I was tired since I can remember. I also used to say as a young girl, "What problems do I have today?" When I was 6 and 7!!!! When school started.

To the best of my understanding this constant worry and negative thinking is the hallmark of GAD. You are anxious in a "general sense" ... everything stressful seems to cause anxiety.

2. DP/DR seems to come with anxiety, but it doesn't have to. But it seems most of us here have some sort of anxiety disorder. Panic, GAD, OCD, etc.

3. One can get depressed from a chronic illness, ANY chronic illness. So depression is to be expected I'd think from chronic DP/DR. Also current research indicates that depression and anxiety seem to come hand in hand, regardless of which is your "primary diagnosis."

4. I also see how in the bast I've had some Borderline traits. I believe those are specifically connected to my dysfunctional/abusinve upbringing. Lamcital initially, then CBT, then DBT have helped with those.

Also a note to anyone freaking over the schizophrenic person who didn't like DP/DR sensations. I had a feeling that would freak someone. Unigirl and enigma.

1. The individual's primary diagnosis was schizophrenia, which is indeed very disabling, but a person with schizophrenia can get better and worse and be lucid. Those folks in the hospital may be in a terrible stage of the illness. It's just on the spectrum of severity. A hospital ward would scare the Hell out of anyone -- but that is where the most SERIOUS cases are -- they aren't an example of the norm. Hospitals are for sick people, period. Cancer victims there, are not an example of recovering cancer victims so many of us run into on a daily basis.

2. I know a schizophrenic woman in my NAMI meetings. She is on an anti-psychotic. She complains that it has taken away all her zest for life, her desire to become a graphic artist. She has also said, "I can deal with the voices, I don't mind that. But I hate when I feel paranoid and scared." So for her, the medication is worth staying on because she finds her paranoia -- i.e. feeling someone is setting the kitchen on fire -- intolerable and is willing to stay on her meds.

She wants off her meds a lot because of her lack of motivation, yet she is willing to take the compromise as she is terrified of her paranoid delusions and hallucinations.

Listening to her, she sounds and acts "perfectly fine."

I'd like to wear a T-shirt every day that says, "Schizophrenics are human beings, not people to be feared. THey have good days and bad days like all of us, and can function on a very high level with meds and therapy."

3. My point re: the article I read about the schizophrenic man. He needs antipsychotic meds. He was trying to find the proper one. For him (like many on the board here) a trial with a particular med brought on DP/DR which he found VERY uncomfortable. He wished off THAT med, and wanted to start another.

Someone who has psychotic episodes or schizophrenia aren't necessarily endlessly incapacitated. This woman I know from my NAMI group is one of many cases.

Having schizophrenia is miserable. But again this is all relative. I find my serious DP/DR episodes absolutely unbearable. But I don't wish for some schizophrenic "escape", and I know I'm not "going schizophrenic" -- I think I would have after all these years 8)

Just to clarify.

And to emphasize the importance of diagnosis, I note Homeskooled battle to find out what has been wrong with him. A diagnosis of Porphyria now gives him the opportunity to take the proper treatment actions. Without that knowledge of a SPECIFIC diagnosis, he has been poking around in the dark, trying to figure what to do.

And his diagnosis and treatment for that, may or may not help his DP/DR -- let's hope it will. But I merely say, case in point. 8)

Karine, again. Taking an anti-psychotic does not mean you are psychotic. Meds at various levels are used for various disorders. And doctors don't know necessarily HOW they work, but they know that certain trials with any number of meds might alleviate a person's symptoms.

Hope this makes sense.
Now off to H&R block to get my derned taxes ammended again. There is no end to the confusion of life. I just have to get used to that. :roll:

D 8)
Did I say I hate moving? And Janine, you're coming to help? 8) Anyone else? LOL
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