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I know I'm going to get it for posting a title like that....but whoever you vote for, just vote. 2000's election was decided by 535 votes, so every one counts this year.

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Agreed and moved to "That's Life" This has been a stressful election for many, and I include myself.

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. As someone else said, the key is to get out and vote.

dakotajo wrote in the Kerry thread:
How can Bush be called the "lesser of 2 evils". Kerry has never been given a chance. Bush has been given a chance and has already shown he is as evil as it gets.

So I've posted this in both threads:
Kerry and Bush:

I read an excellent article the other day. Someone said, Bush and Kerry are "the lesser of two RISKS" Osama bin Laden is "evil".

Again this is terribly complex, and goes back centuries really, but bin Laden and extremist fundamentalist Muslims want ALL countries out of the Middle East. Out of the ENTIRE Middle East, and want us to dump Israel as an ally. Some of this mess goes back to 1948 when the UN created the state of Israel. Bin Laden has been a threat since 1982. He has been thrown out of his home country Saudi Arabia which is far more moderate.

This is not an easy decision for anyone, even for people who have an extensive knowledge of politics. And yes, many Presidents and other foreign leaders have made mistakes, but I reserve evil for the likes of bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, miserable despots of all kinds in Africa, Saddam who used Iraq's oil income to either build palaces for himself or to by military equipment -- we've known that for years, etc., etc., etc.

Also, Rumsfeld is someone who really messed up our follow up into the Iraq mess. He wanted to prove his own theory that the US can operate with a smaller military presense... well he forgot we needed to be there to help clean stuff up if we were going to go in and mess things up.

I'm not arguing for or against anyone here. I'm terrified by this. Also, whoever is President will have a new cabinet. Incumbents' cabinets members don't always stay for a second term. A number of bad eggs will be gone. But I'll miss Colin Powell.

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enngirl5 said:
Crumbles why do you say Democrats are less likely to be individuals and are followers? I see it as the exact opposite. Just curious on your thoughts behind this.
Interesting. Reality to talk about when I've just awakened from a hideous dream.

Why would either of these statements be true. They are ridiculous generalizations.

I am a registered Republican. Grew up in the Upper Class, suburb, doctors for parents, but abusive and neglectful. Private school I loved that was so good I didn't even need my Freshman year in college without advanced placement.

I voted for Bush for one reason -- the reason I had from the beginning -- international issues. Not wanting to change horses in midstream. I did not trust Kerry to be agressive enough. Round table peace talks don't work in the Middle East. I don't know what will. CLinton failed numerous times to kill bin Laden. He's been messing with us since 1982.

Also have read a great deal recently about the complexity of foreign policy and guessing, what does bin Laden, really want. (Not just bin Laden, fundamentalist Muslims who don't just hate America, but hate the West). Bin Laden wants us OUT of the Middle East entirely.

That can't happen. We and other coutnries have been living/working, had military involvement in the Middle East for.... forever. It's too late at night to go into detail.

Neither Kerry nor Bush will pull us out of Iraq or stop being an ally to the moderate Middle Eastern coutries, Quatar who asked us to be there, Saudi Arabia (we've been protecting her borders from Saddam Hussein for forever), etc., etc. too tired. Israel.

I saw on a 12pm analysis that the votes went this way:

1. Morality FIRST: anti-abortion, anti gay civil unions, anti-stem cell, and a return to legislative control of morality. I find that unnacceptable and I am a conservative. I am COMPLETELY against every one of those concepts. I am pro-choice, pro gay civil unions, pro-stem cell, and don't want my morality legislated.

2. Domestic Issues SECOND: this election, these issues were less a concern for me than the war. That's just me. Though i know we need many social reforms.

3. Fear of Terrorism/War in Iraq: LAST. And that was how I was voting. So my Republican vote wasn't even representing my views.

It is bigotry to assume that one person who calls themselves a conservative or a liberal is all one thing and that's it. There are people in this country from extremely bright and well-informed to those who know nothing about politics. We all came out in droves to vote. We all don't agree on everything. Even within one party.

It is bigotry to assume that one "party member" stands for only ONE thing or set of ideas and is "only a follower", etc.

It is NEVER that simple.

My state is still undecided as I see. At this hour 5am, I don't know who the President will be, and at this point I don't care. I hate Bush a million ways to SUnday, but I also don't have enough confidence in Kerry's stance in foreign affairs. If he wins only time will tell. Maybe my vote mattered, changed the world, maybe it didn't.

I did what was foremost in my mind at this time in my life. I was very much affected by 9/11, and being conservative to me, simply means less government intervention. Sadly, Bush is a Republican who is MORE intrusive in our lives. You don't bring anti-gay civil unions up as a Federal issue.

This is far too complex. I feel far too miserable right now from a horrible dream.

Haev to pull myself back to reality, as stupid as it is.

I wish that morality wasn't the key reason for this vote. It pisses me off. That is not how I see government, or America. But I voted for a specific reason.

So shoot me.
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I'm a registered Republican as
1. I simply believe in less government

2. I am an agnostic
3. I could use social programs, yes, but find when the Federal government gets involved they cause MORE messes. Health care is one issue -- Federal health care in Canada and Britain is in serious trouble. DOn't know the answer. I'm not a genius.
4. I can vote in the Republican primaries for my best choice for President. There was no choice this time. The incumbent was guaranteed to win.
5. This has not prevented me in the past for voting for a Democratic president.
I do not vote a straight ticket, and when I understand the issues/representatives with confidence I vote different parties, I vote PEOPLE.

Proposals. I voted them all down in my state, they all won. All were against my personal convictions, but they were Republican, morally influenced votes.

We all have different priorities, needs, fears, concerns, ideologies. Being one or another doesn't make us "one type of person." Impossible.

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enngirl5 said:
I agree that calling one group or the other "followers" is a stupid generalization. I was just pissed last night when I saw that on his website that dem's are sheep. And I agree there are plenty of intelligent repub's. I just happen to live in the part of the country where people are voting for Bush because they hate gays, hate welfare, and don't want their gun rights taken away. And of course are blood thirsty.
Dear Enn,
Didn't mean to come on mean. Bad night last night. I also hadn't read what came before.

And I agree, I don't want the government to legislate morality. What's interesting is in my state, we had an anti-gay civil union ammendment. The only reason it was, there was fear that Kerry would win, and in that case, certain voters "protected us" from potential degradation of morals.

I was furious. I voted that down. This happend in many states. And it was cloaked in a pretty little commercial that looked like it was an affirmation of the sanctity of the marriage of a man and a woman.

I realize this is a personAL issue, and not everyone may agree with my stand.

At any rate, no attack intended. I responded directly to that post you had put up, hadn't read what was before.

Edit... that order of voting intent I think was combined male and female. I was really outraged that Morality was #1 of ALL Republican voters. I think this election brought out SO many people for SO many different reasons, many people that wouldn't have voted came out in droves. If there's anything good to be said, at least we're getting involved. I'm not sure of the statistics, but I believe 62% of Detroiters came out, which broke some record 3 decades ago. Astonishing.

And again I say, this has been brewing for years. And it's a new breed of cat. I think everyone was completely caught off-guard by 9/11. It brought to the forefront certain actions we had tabled.... killing bin Laden.. there was never "a right time" in the CLinton administration.... and we were destined to invade Iraq at some point when the UN sanctions ran out completely.

The worst thing Bush did was justify the Iraq invasion with a connection to 9/11. We may all disagree about what happened, but all events were inevitable. It was a matter of time.

And I'll say it again. If you've read the FULL tape transcript that bin Laden had for Al-Jazeera which they MERCIFULLY kept edited, bin Laden would have controlled our election, much like Spain's was. Maybe. But it's scary as Hell.

D :shock:
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sleepingbeauty said:
its nice to live in a dream world where the playing field is equal and everyone has a fair chance of success. dont forget that 99% of the successful and affluent got that way with a silverspoon stuck up their ass.
I'd say that is just as bigoted as making a generalization of conservatives and liberals.

Personal Story A:
My maternal grandfather was a train engineer (i.e. repairman for the rails) and my grandmother a mother of three and a housekeeper. There was a point when times were so bad that they worked as handyman and housekeeper resepctively for a wealthy family. They had no college educations, they spoke German and learned English on thier own.

They had little money to speak of. Of the three children, my mother was the only child to get a college education which she got on scholarship. She became a doctor. She managed her money very well. She was not dripping in money when she died, but I did grow up in the Upper Middle Class... no competition to the Fords, i.e. the Henry Fords and family who streamed through my private school. They were THE UPPER CLASS. My parents as medical professionals didn't come near the income of that class.

My father was born in a tiny town in Ohio at the turn of the century. Parents, poor school teachers who also owned a general store.
Four children. One son became a playwright, died young. One son became a career military man. The daughter in the family became a housewife. My father received a scholarship to University and subsequently medical school and became a doctor. He was the most succesful person in the family. My father had severe OCD and lost his money.

My mother, thank God, was able to be financially independent, a taxpayer of course. She of course was also abusive, but that's beside the point.

My life, if you want to call it that had a lot of silver spoons in it. But a lot of struggle. I was still able, despite my mental illness, to complete a B.A. and an M.A. and if I weren't disabled I would have continued my career in the "corrupt entertainment industry" -- I suppose I would have been a closet conservative, LOL. I would have made a decent living. I'm now in a real shit mess. But I don't consider my friends who have been succesful in many fields to have gotten to such places without hard work. And their careers are varied and admirable. Professionals to those with vocations. Human beings, struggling with everyday problems. Some with serious problems.

Personal story B:
My husband's Uncle A. and Aunt F. They were poor/Jewish (hence discriminated against)/in the early 1900s. No college education, either of them. Because they lived through the depression, in true poverty, they were extremely careful with their money. This is a tendency of people who lived through the Depression.

Uncle A. was a machinist. A factory worker his whole life. Aunt F. was a secretary. They had two children who are now in their fifties, and there are granchildren. One of Uncle A. was a proud WWII Veteran. Front line. Fighting in Germany. An American Jew against the Nazis. (Sounds like a soap opera I made up, but it's true). The two were also socialists. My husband's father (Jewish) -- a communist.

At any rate, Uncle A. and Aunt F. took their lives into their own hands. Worked as hard as Hell their whole lives, took care of two kids, both while working. They were very careful with their money, their investments.

Uncle A. died of cancer about... 6 years ago. Aunt F. can live comfortably on over 3 million dollars, which is earning interest, so she will not be a burden on anyone, even if she has to go into a nursing home. They were taxed, once they became wealthy at the highest income tax bracket. That money was hard-earned, fought for, and well managed. By a man who had no college education, came from a hated minority at the time (perhaps still hated), lived in poverty, he lived "the American Dream" and was a distinguished war veteran.

Dare I mention that Kerry is extremely wealthy, not merely by his own family wealth, but in his marriage to the heiress to the Heinz ketchup empire. Kerry is no poorer than George W. and they're both a helluva lot better off than most of us here. BOth of them went to Yale.

What is wrong with this?

No, we are not all equal, we never have been. But being wealthy doesn't mean someone didn't work for it. And someone is supposed to be guilty if old wealth is passed down.

And, if I may say, entertainers in Hollywood, and sports stars earn an obscene amount of money, regardless of their backgrounds. Many are philanthropists, many are not.

How can one decide that an actor is worth millions, or these sports players, millions of millions, I can't even think of the figures ... and yet a secretary, or a plumber, or a doctor, or a businessman, or an attorney is worth less.

Just a few thoughts.
Again, about generalizations.
There are nasty rich people and there are nasty poor people.
There are decent conservatives and decent liberals.
There are nasty conservatives and there are nasty liberals.

That statement is truly .... again bigoted.

I'm not saying capitalism is a system better than any other. All social/economic systems have plusses and minus'.

And, I hate to say this, but did any of us get to select what family we were born into, what COUNTRY. Why in God's name does someone have to apologize for being a wealthy American, a poor American, a wealthy British Monarch, or a poor working class Brit.

This completely ignores the complexity of human existence. And it's only the beginning ... this is again like saying, all black kids are gang members and murderers... we start going into the deepest ugliest stereotypes from here.

In the spirit of debate,
But with frustration,
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Forgot to mention. My wealthy Aunt A. and Aunt F. were life-long liberals, voted democrat all the way.

Yes there are evil greedy people in this world. But there are also decent hard-working people. There are people with inherited wealth who are a disaster. There are people with inherited wealth who have gone on to be decent hard-working people. There are poor who are hard-working and good, there are poor who are hardworking and bad.

Ohio was the deciding vote in the election. Ohio has been hit seriously by loss of jobs during the Bush administration, yet Ohioans voted Republican, for a million different reasons.

What should we do with the 99%????? of SUCCESSFUL and affluent people with spoons up there asses? Tell me what to do about it? Let's have a plan here.

Henry Ford was a pioneer. HIs money came from the concept of the auto on the assemblyline. The Ford Family is one of the largest philanthropic organizations in Michigan. We have hospitals, schools, all form of cultural and educational foundations that were established and maintained by the Fords.

I don't understand the logic of this.
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Yup, Shelly, I think we're talking about more examples as well. The safety net of welfare here has been abused, not by everyone, but by enough people that those truly deserving of help get a smaller slice of the pie.

I am not judging any person that has done this, but it sure as hell doesn't help the system work. People are law suit happy here as well, driving up the cost of health insurance and even keeping young people from going into medicine. OB/GYNs have staggering health insurance premiums. They are also mired in paperwork that costs a ridiculous amount to process.

My mother took on many Medicaid patients when she worked in the court system. She ironically evaluated abused children, and was often called "the baby snatcher" as she would help remove abused babies and children from horrible family situations. Even if she testified to guaranteed potential of death for these children, they would be returned to their homes, only to be reported dead in three months.

My mother didn't have a secretary. She did her own billing, and even had me doing it!!!! We THREW AWAY, HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS OF MEDICAID FORMS. There was no way she could keep up. She never collected thousands of dollars. She didn't have the time, and paying a secretary for a single woman's practice, she wasn't part of a group, wasn't worth it. She paid malpractice, rent on her office, etc., etc., etc.

I'll tell you who bugs the Hell out of me PARIS HILTON. And she is one of the most popular celebrities these days. Admired, fawned upon, ACH, ACH, ACH. Now there's where I say, yeah, give me a break. I'd like to kick her in the head, LOL. Yeah, she pisses me off. But she is not an example of all wealthy people born to great wealth.

OK, like Shelly, off my soapbox. :)
But here's something interesting. Even Paris Hilton has made a career for herself. She doesn't need the money, but she actually works for a living as well!
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Just for the record, as NOTHING is simple....

I suggest two books Gavin.

Believe it or not, one was written by one of my classmates in private school here in Michigan. He was in our private school on scholarship as he lived in a poor area of Detroit. He doesn't like being called an African American, he likes to simply be called an American.

He graduated from my private school, coming from a strong family background in a very poor area of Detroit. He lost both his brother early, and his mother, and his father raised him with great emphasis on education.

Things DO start at the family level. Good things, and bad things. I've had both.

My friend from highschool and his book:

Out Of Amercia: A Black Man Confronts Africa by Keith B. Richburg. He is a journalist for The Washington Post

Also, by a CONSERVATIVE black man who grew up in South Central L.A.... you passed through there on your awful train ride from LAX... I agree that was a BAD part of town.... this man, Larry Elder has gotten death threats from black people, and is called an "Oreo" which in this country means "black on the outside, white on the inside" which is truly insulting, simply because he got out of the ghetto (his father was a hotdog vedor!), went to university and became a lawyer and now an author, radio talk host, etc.

The Ten Things You Can't Say In America by Larry Elder Take him or leave him.

All I'll add to this. I never said it was easy being a minority in America. Where does racism come from. From eVERYWHERE. Not just whites.

And the public school system here is rife with corruption. If parents would participate in their childrens' education there might be some changes. I was damned lucky to go to Private School. For me, it saved my life. It was my family since Pre-Kindergarten. I feel very fortunate. I wish all school could be like mine was. But for some reason the Public school system in America is falling apart, and it used to work rather well.

Many reasons I won't even try to go into here.

I do recommend these two books, and yes, I am very proud of my classmate and friend who even acted in plays with me. His source of strength -- his family. Bottom line.

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PS, LOL Shelly. Agreed, Paris would NOT have a TV show, what now, a clothing line, a fragrance, etc. if it weren't for her name. SHe can't act to save her life.

I can only say though... so, she was born into wealth? SHould we crucify her for that? -- (directed at Gavin/and Sleeping.) Kick her in the head, YES. LOL. But she sure is popular. ACH. :shock:

All the boys seem to think she's peachy. I wouldn't want to LOOK like her and I'm not lying.

Wouldn't mind being wealthy though. WHO WOULDN'T. Yes, it would make life, especially with DP, a helluva lot easier, but I would rather have my DP go away, and contribute to society in some job.
Gimpy said:
Success is contagious and so is failure
No truer words have been spoken.

I just thought of something, the simplest thing, which is the most ridiculous debate between private and public schools.

At private school I was required to wear a uniform up through 8th grade. High school -- 9th through 12th we had a strict dress code. No casual wear, no jeans. The purpose of the dress code was literally to "even the playing field!" Some kids in my town came from heavy duty old wealth. But many didn't. The incomes of families in my school varied tremendously.

The dress code made it:
1. "an equal playing field"
2. taught us discipline, to have all parts of our uniform together as we did in gym class
3. it was easy to identify us on class trips so we didn't get lost, LOL

But right there, my private school leveled the playing field.

I had friends in the community who went to the Upper Class Public school. The schools (two in my district) were not as good as my private school. There was less respect for authority. The richer kids could wear top of line clothes and the less wealthy kids couldn't afford them. The classes were MUCH larger. I had some classes with only 8 students in them vs. 25 students in a class.... even in an Upper Class neighborhood, the private school surpassed everything that was offered at the public school.

Bureaucracy got in the way. There weren't the same high expectations. And I'll tell you. I was struggling like hell at home and it reflected in school. Poor grades, lack of confidence. My private school MADE A GREATER EFFORT to be supportive of my strengths/talents and to encourage me to do better. (They knew there was "bad stuff" happening at home and made an effort to make school a "safe place" for me.)

Had I gone to Public school, where these days kids would BALK at having to wear a uniform -- which is far less expensive than getting a kid an entire wardrobe every semester -- I know I would have gotten lost in the crowd and fallen through the cracks.

So the simplest thing, a uniform -- required at a Private school, but found not "politically correct" in public schools today -- MADE THE PLAYING FIELD MORE EVEN. Equal expectations, attention, support, demands and REWARD for the expectations was so valuable -- we were prepared for life, for university, or for vocations if we chose them. We were counseled on career choices. Educated on how to find our way.

Had I gone to the public school in my Upper Class neighborhood, I may very well have failed, I may have even killed myself, and I am not lying. Instead, I was given encouragement, challenges, hope, stimulation, attention I didn't get at home. That is the fault of my parents, and no school should babysit a child. Public schools here in the US (not all there are some EXCELLENT ones) have turned into a big playground. And where there are no expectations, kids graduate and can't write a decent sentence, or read a book.

How can we give children the best start in life if we expect nothing of them? Though who need extra help should get it. I got it in Private school. Extra help is HARDER to get in Public school, due to so many bureuacratic red tape, size, corruption, lack of standardization, etc.

I was damned lucky. I was lucky that my school expected the most of me. I felt proud when I succeded. And the teachers were expected to perform at a high level, and they didn't haev to spend time babysitting us, they focused all of their time on teaching us how to LEARN.

Gimpy said it..... "Success is contagious, and so is failure." Gimpy you ought to copyright that unless someone famous already said that.

And again this is so difficult to write about vs. discussing in person.

And Shelly, LOL.

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Dear SleepingB,
Your story makes me sad. Interesting. I made many bad choices in my younger years based on the fact that I wanted to get as far away from my mother as possible. Had I been healthy, that would have been easy, or had I had a healthy family, THAT would have made the difference.

In my experience, I find that yes, money is important, it greases the wheel, but bottom line the foundation for the rest of our lives comes from family.

Dear Gavin
Man this debate is great, but again exhausting as I have million things to explain and can't type that fast.

We certainly have differences of opinion as we have grown up in two different worlds. It's pretty amazing that I think of the Americans and Brits as "the same family" -- the colonists were Brits (and of course later many other foreign immigrants) ... but we have been raised with different ways of seeing the world. I understand that.

To sort of clarify the school thing. The public schools in the US can be excellent. The problems run deeper than that.

Public schools are funded by property taxes on the individuals who live in a particular location. (I'm making this very simplistic, and I may say have some things incorrect so don't quote me.) But for example, I went to Private School, that my father paid for. My parents were separated until I was 18 and lived in different areas. My mother paid income taxes and property taxes which went to fund the PUBLIC schools in our district. My father did the same for HIS district. On top of that my father was paying for a private school.

So say there is an elderly couple with no children, living in a wealthy area. Say they never had kids and lived there their whole lives. They still paid taxes which were funneled into the local Public Schools. So there IS an example of 2 homeownders contributing to a school district through taxation, (AS WELL AS FEDERAL FUNDING), though they never use the Public School system. They have no kids, but part of their income pays for the local Public School.

In higher income neighborhoods there is a stronger tax base, so the quality of the school overall will be better (in theory).

But this is interesting. My private school had high expectations, and one thing was, if you did poorly, you weren't allowed to stay, you got expelled -- for good. The fear and terror of that is, your parents would be furious, as they paid good money for you to go and you didn't take advantage of the opportunity. That happens. I have no judgement. And I'm talking about kids WITHOUT problems/disabilities, etc. Who chose to screw around. They got to go to Public school, for FREE, but they STILL screwed around.

Not every kid wants to go to school. I feel it goes back to the family though. The majority of the kids who went to the public schools in my wealthy neighborhood did go on to be successful. I think the community itself had certain standards, and parents were more involved in their kids' educations. Kids from my private school went to Harvard. Kids from the public school went to Harvard. But bottom line -- here are kids motivated by something.

These days, public schools are in bad shape. They are FREE. But there is no such thing as getting anything for FREE. Someone is paying for that out of their taxes, somewhere. Since certain districts don't have a strong tax base, the schools can start heading downhill -- that's not good, it's not fair to the young kids who want/need an education. But more money gets pumped into those school districts and the money is mishandled.

A private school is held more accountable as parents say, "Where is my money going?" "What books is my child reading?" "Why isn't there a music program?" There are stricter rules, parent involvement and expectation.

And despite that, some kids don't want to be scholars. I understand that too. But in a world where manual labor is being replaced by computers, you have to have specific knowledge. The US lags behind many countries in terms of math and science scores. Why? It's complicated.

I'm already tired.

The thing is, where does a child get motivation from? Whom does a child really want to please? His/her parents. I believe strongly in family as the basis for success. Being in a bad neighborhood is NOT GOOD though. I agree. But in the average public school, those children whose PARENTS expect something from them, want them to learn, help them to learn... bottom line LOVE them... they do better in school anyway.

And yes. If you grow up in the ghetto, you have a million strikes against you to start with. You have to worry about drug sales in the hallways. Gangs. Kids who don't CARE about learning. Public schools that existed before the 1960s, worked pretty well here. There is a giant chapter on social/cultural change I can't even get into now.

But the public schools started to fail.

I know we have problems with our health care system now. But when you guys talk about your NHS in the UK, or I hear about healthcare in Canada, I'm shocked. I hear stories here of people not being able to see a psychiatrist for 6 months. Someone with a tumor getting on a list to wait forever to have it removed and biopsied.

The social medical system in Canada and the UK, which I hear the most about is in trouble. OUR system is in trouble. So neither the capitalist system nor the socialist system is working re: healthcare overall. And I do know, that wealthy Brits have private health insurance, and they can get immediate care, better care, etc.

It is so complicated.

I don't know the answers.
But I know one thing. Certain things like starting out well in life start at the family level. I came (as an only child) from a relatively wealthy family, but I was ill. My parents didn't love me, didn't help me. So the money helped in certain ways, but had they given me coping skills, helped me live with my illness, work around it, etc..... let me get help when i first needed it (and my parents were doctors and turned their heads the other way for their own screwy reasons).... had I had support from my family, I would have done 500 times better than I am now at 46.

Personal responsiblity falls in here somewhere.

I wish I could wave a magic wand, and help everyone here.

I wish that millions of Africans weren't starving, dying of AIDS, etc. How can that be happening in 2004?

Very complicated.
There is no simple, perfect answer.

Peace Folks,
Sorry for the ramble. I like this section. It DOES take my mind off the DP!!!!
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So, this whole discussion is really totally senseless from the outset.
Well, perhaps, but we're having fun. And jeepers, it started out about the election. We know we're arguing about a million issues here.

All of this takes my focus off of my DP. Trying to understand more about politics. And ya' don't have ta' read all of my drivel. I always try to explain, and explain. I yammer on. I'm working on it, it's difficult.


D :shock:
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