[Trith]

Exactly. I think people on here who claim there is no way out are basically manifesting a future negative reality before themselves. Cognition plays an important role in my suffering of DP, I know when something negative is occurring in my thought.

I agree that it's good to have a positive outlook about it, because obsessions can probably feed DPDR, at least this is my experience. But it is important to not fall onto the other extreme: to think that one can get out of it through wishful thinking, or that if someone cannot find the way out it necessarily means they are being negative. In order to draw these conclusions we should have a deep knowledge about DPDR, but we are not even researchers in neuroscience or psychology, and even them don't really know. Some people have had it for a long time (it's called depersonnalization disorder), not all of them are being negative. And perhaps for some there is indeed no way out. Unless we are in everybody's mind we cannot know for sure, and we cannot pretend to know what we don't know just for the sake of positivity. Personnally my knowledge about myself and the disease needs to have solid ground. I prefer to admit what I don't know and live with it rather then make up beliefs and not trust any of them completely because I know I made them up. I have been running in that loop of believing and being disappointed for too long. I prefer to learn to be comfortable with not knowing. To the contrary, I think that making up our own truth is a kind of pessimistic path, because we don't trust that reality will be bearable.

 

[Trith]

That's right. I don't believe in the law of attraction. Manifesting a positive outlook doesn't solve all problems. Of course there is a way out for a lot of people, there are a lot of examples here and I have never seen anyone who denied that. But how do you know if people who say there is no way out for themselves are just manifesting a "future negative reality" before themselves? How do you know they are not simply telling the truth? What experience do you have that prooves there is no one in the world who will have this forever? When someone has lost their legs, nobody tells them they should believe their legs will grow again just for the sake of positivity. And as a matter of fact they can even have a positive outlook on their life without believing their legs will grow back. This is irrelevant.
And yes, DPDR is often a symptom of another disease. But specialists do say that DPDR can also be a stand alone disease. They call it depersonalization disorder. Elaine Hunter talks about it in her book ( Overcoming Depersonalization and Feelings of Unreality (Overcoming S): Anthony S. David, Dawn Baker, Elaine Hunter, Emma Lawrence: 9781845295547: Amazon.com: Books ) . She is the head of a department in a clinic in London who only treats patients with DPDR. She is a specialist in this field and has studied this in university, she has 20 years of experience about this disease and has probably seen and treated hundreds of patients with DPDR. She says that sometimes DPDR can be caused by panic attacks and even if you manage to stop the panic attacks and make the person free of anxiety, sometimes DPDR stays the same, and then they call it DPDR disorder and it is indeed a stand alone disorder. But my own psychiatrist did tell me that it could not be a stand alone disease, but he also exhibited a terrible lack of knowledge about DPDR. He could not even understand what a feeling of unreality could mean, he thought it was a philosophical problem and was clearly not up to date about it.
So what is your source of knowledge to say it cannot be a stand alone disease? Where did you get this information from?

Also here
"Researchers don’t know what causes these disorders. In up to half of the cases, healthcare providers cannot identify what triggers the disorder. "

Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder: Symptoms & Treatment

Depersonalization/derealization disorder is a common dissociative disorder. If it’s interfering with your life, you may need treatment.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Or here
"Depersonalization/derealization feelings are considered a disorder when the following occur:

• Depersonalization or derealization occurs on its own (that is, it is not caused by drugs or another mental disorder), and it persists or recurs."

Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder - Mental Health Disorders - Merck Manuals Consumer Version

Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder - Learn about the causes, symptoms, diagnosis & treatment from the Merck Manuals - Medical Consumer Version.

www.merckmanuals.com

Or here
"The disorder tended to be chronic and persistent. Seventy-one per cent met DSM-IV criteria for primary depersonalisation disorder. "

Depersonalisation disorder: clinical features of 204 cases - PubMed

Depersonalisation disorder is a recognisable clinical entity but appears to have significant comorbidity with anxiety and depression. Research into its aetiology and treatment is warranted.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Trith]

almost everyone who recover tell the same and similar things. and almost everyone who tell they have it for 60 years are the same negative personality as well.

i think accepting something is not that easy, that people can say „nah bro i accepted it for 20 years and it is still there“. your metaphor with the legless man was good. but i will give you another here. if you chase your ex girlfriend, until you make the clear and 100 percent decision to accept, that she will never come back, you will never forget her. and to call her every month once or twice is contradicting with „i accepted that she left me“. for me acceptance is „well i have those symptoms and this is my destiny so i have to accept it and look for good things at life.“ the man who didnt have a leg anymore could cry all his life why he lost his leg and whine and bitch everyday. but he could also be like this man here:


View attachment 4797

this picture above does not mean that he miraculously got legs. but he could also lay at home and search a forum for bionic legs and innovations.

this is just my opinion. i dont know what others think. but if santos barrios recovered after 35 years, this alone means to me that this illness is in particular curable. because if santos barrios would have a version that is „soft“, he would recover on its own after 6 months (like many others here). and i watched his spanish videos as well and he did consistently various things and tried so much. so he achieved his recovery and he can be proud about himself. no one gifted him his recovery. there is one philosophical incontradictable thing: you can never try everything at life time. there is too much to try at an average lifetime. but i think with the negative thinking „no matter what i do my life is shit“ and „im a victim of my illness“ this person wont get anywhere at first place.

I am not sure I understand the analogy completely. To be clear, I am not saying that there are any cases that are impossible to cure. Nor that we should give up trying. Some people will die with this illness and some others won't. For those who died with it, we will never know if they could have tried something else successfully or if they could not be cured at all. So we don't know. And all I am saying is that if we don't know we cannot claim that we know. We cannot say that some forms are impossible to cure, and in the same way we cannot say that all forms can be cured.
Personally I am fed up with my own fantasies. I want to live in reality. And if reality is that we don't know, then I wanto live in that reality and accept that I don't know. That being said, I keep trying, because if there is any chance I can be free from it I want to find it.
The fact that I defend the idea that some people might not be curable doesn't mean I know (nor think) there are any, nor that I am one of them. I just don't want to pretend knowing the things I don't know.
I don't want people to think they can't be cured when they can. And if some people can't be cured I want them to be accepted and not blamed for where they are in life. The solution to all of this is to just accept that we don't know. To encourage everyone, and not blame anyone. I mean blaming them for example by saying they necessarily have a negative outlook on their life and this is why they are here.
Anyway, if anyone has had this for decades I can imagine they have a negative outlook (I am not part of them, I keep trying and I have hope). Maybe they have a negative outlook because it lasted too long for them and not the other way around (not everyone is like this guy).
Again, I don't understand why me defending this idea means I am whining about my own case. Actually I am trying lamotrigine + SSRI now and it is partially working so far. So please don't misunderstand what I am saying. And even if I wasn't recovering, my point still stands.

Anyway, even if some people are being negative about their recovery (and this is irrelevant to the point I just made) why should it bother other people so much? No one needs to hate negative people to fuel their own positivity, which would be paradoxical anyway. It is like the paradox of people who quit smoking and start hating those who still do. They quit but they are still addicted.

Edit: Anyway, thanks for the name of Santos Barrios. I didn't know him and will check him out.

 

[Trith]

His analogy was pointing to the idea that depersonalization is, globally (for everyone) the result of something we control yet keep doing.

Your analogy of losing your legs and not knowing how to recover them maintains truth so long as it actually IS impossible to recover from DP for some. But I disagree, we can all agree that depersonalization disorder occurs in the mind and not our legs, therefore we ARE in control.

Whether or not we recognize whatever it is which creates our DP is dependent on us (of our own thoughts), whether it’s anxiety, ocd, fear, or some other mental distortion. It has to be something occurring in the mind, not nothing. Your narrative about it being a mystery is wrong. And the law of attraction is real, but it doesn’t mean that positivity is the only thing required. You have to find yourself out of the jungle to find out what that means.

It's not because it is in the mind that we have control over it. Look at schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, epilepsy, parkinson's disease, severe depression, narcolepsy, disability caused by brain damage, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleepwalking, amnesia, dementia, low IQ, autism, or some types of aphasia (edit: or simply being high on a drug, you can't "un-high" yourself). I am not saying that DPDR is related to any of these diseases, but they are just counter examples to your assertion, showing this is not always true, which means you cannot apply it for sure to DPDR. You could argue that some of them occur "in the brain and not in the mind", and that because DPDR occurs in the mind then it is different (which is a dubious assertion as the mind occurs in the brain too until proven otherwise). But even if we admit that "mind diseases" are curable (and you would have to define precisely what a mind disease is) you have yet to prove that DPDR is in the mind for everyone. This is just a bold assertion.
And you are saying that the law of attraction is real without providing any argument. But what is asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. So I will just say that the law of attraction isn't true and my assertion is as valid as yours.

"Your analogy of losing your legs and not knowing how to recover them maintains truth so long as it actually IS impossible to recover from DP for some. "

I didn't make this analogy to prove that DPDR can't be cured, just that some problems can't be cured and that doesn't necessarily mean that people who have them for all their life have a negative outlook on their life. I am not saying that it is the case for DPDR, just that there are cases where it is true, which means that one cannot say that every person who has a disease for all their life have a negative outlook on their life, nor that their disease is caused by a negative outlook. So it might very well be the case for some people who have DPDR until proven otherwise.
But read me well, I didn't say it was impossible to be cured for some people, just that we don't know. And even if it was true that all of us can be cured, it's not us non specialists on an internet forum who will prove it. If one could understand the mechanisms of a disease just by having it therapists wouldn't exist.

 

[Trith]

You really want to compare depersonalization to something like Parkinsons? If I’m hearing this right, you are in denial of what DP is. Even so-called “experts” will agree that DP has nothing to do with degradation of biological processes, LOL. By being aware of the definition DP implies and a little bit of common sense (no Superman experts needed), you can see that YOU, YOUR mind is disordered. Not unavailable background biological processes, I’m talking about the conscious mind. So What’s that mean? It means there needs to be a complete mutation of the self, an actual change within ourselves to overcome the disorder. I don’t care how many experts you’ve studied or how much extensive research you’ve done, you can’t tell me im wrong. it is still belligerently arrogant to say that just because I don’t have sufficient (good enough) evidence for yourself means I’m wrong. Oh it’s because the experts said so. But who notified them? What exactly is evidence anyway? Articles on the internet? Seriously, just stop

I care about the truth. Not giving people a right to say they’r incurable. The fact is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who beats DP says the same thing. It is US who have to change ourselves. People like you don’t want the truth, too caught up in semantics and arguing.

You are saying that it is normal not to have control over Parkinson's disease because it is due to biological processes and not "due to the mind". But you nicely picked on Parkinson's disease and left all the others out. So how about schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, severe depression, narcolepsy, hypnagogic hallucinations, sleepwalking, amnesia, low IQ, autism, or some types of aphasia, or being high? Plus some imbalence in some neurotransmitters have been identify for DPDR. In all these diseases they all have distorted minds and still they can't change themselves by shear will and a "change of the self". So your assumption that "disortion of the mind" can be cured by "a change of the self" is just proven wrong by all these examples. So you need to use something else. It's not that it's not sufficient for me, it's just that that assumption, that theory, is just wrong given the number of counter examples. And also I am not into consciousness pseudoscience.
I don't see why you would be better at analyzing DPDR than researchers that analyzed more cases than just one as you did with yourself with your "distorted mind". The few articles I have posted are 1. a scientific paper, the second one is a webpage written by David Spiegel (a quick search to see all his scientific publications about depersonalization Google Scholar and if you do a research about depersonalization itself, you find 115 000 scientific publications, and just try to count how many are very relevant to DPDR depersonalization https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=fr&as_sdt=0,5&q=depersonalization&btnG= ) I am talking about scientific articles, like results of studies. Do you know how this works? It's their freaking job. What is your job? Accounting? I am not talking about the research I have done, I am talking about the research they have done, not by asking for some patient's opinion or by waiting to be "notified" by them, but by doing actual studies themselves. Do you know how this works? If just having the disease makes you smarter than them, why don't you go there to teach them? Yes, I can tell you you are wrong. I am just doing that now. How arrogant can you be to think you know better than scientists... Why don't you go there and replace them all? Fire them all and teach everyone the truth, you will save the world. Talk about being arrogant...
And, no, some people who "beat" DP do so thanks to medicines and not the way you say. Some recovered by doing a lot of sports. Countless people say they recovered spontaneously and they don't know why. You are throwing away all the evidence that doesn't match your theory just based on your theory itself. If anyone says they have recovered not the way you say, you will still argue that they did but don't realize it. You are disregarding the evidence that doesn't go along with your theory and wonder that everything proves your theory is right... And also you are only considering people who did recover, again only to confirm your theory. But how about people who did not recover during all their life, since this is what we are talking about? How do you know if they could have recovered since they didn't during their lifetime? Of course they will not confirm your theory nor disprove it, precisely because they didn't recover during their lifetime. And you will say that they could have recovered if they did this and that. How could you know how they could have recovered since they didn't? If there existed a from of DPDR that could not be cured (and I don't know this) you would have the exact same result as we have now. Some people just don't recover during their lifetime. Just the same. So this is just your theory and there is no way you can prove it. Actually nobody knows for sure, and this is my whole point. This is all I am saying. Maybe you are right about them but how do you know? You don't know. I don't know. That's all.
Again, I am not defending that some people can't recover. I am defending that nobody knows. Especially if we are not researchers in that topic.
And since you say we should "change ourselves" and not be "caught up in arguing", just change yourself by yourself and stop being caught up in arguing with me. Stop saying how you will recover but didn't yet. Show me how it's done. Actually don't show me. Just do it and let me argue.