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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
(I am sorry but i cannot resist anymore)

Re: Abortion

God doesn't like it when you play God.
 

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What I have said has not been "playing God." "Playing God" is saying, "There is no god" as if one were omniscient oneself. That's playing God.

It's not playing God to say that I believe God has prepared a special place for people who kill unborn humans and do not repent. The same is true for those who lie about what others have said, who mistreat other people, who murder, who steal, who do all manner of evil and do not repent.

If I neglected to say "I believe that..." before I made my statements, then that is a mistake on my part.

But that's hardly "playing God," and you know it.
 

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But that's hardly "playing God," and you know it.
Well...it forcing innumerable numbers of women to have babies, which they may not love or be able to financially cater for, and for which the fathers may be long gone, and to bring them up.

It's compelling countless other women to go back to the ages of "backstreet abortions", undergoing painful, dangerous procedures, and sometimes even dying.

It's wrecking the lives of many young girls who, without the chance to abort, have to sacrifice their current concerns and in many cases their futures to care for a child.

Above all, it's denying women the choice to decide what happens to their own bodies, on the mere basis of some tenuous text with no significant historically or scientifically established veracity.

You might not be "playing God", but you're getting damn close.
 

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I'm for abortion, but becoming pregnant doesn't have to ruin your life. You can always give your child up for adoption. You don't have to take care of a baby you don't want.
 

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"Well...it forcing innumerable numbers of women to have babies, which they may not love or be able to financially cater for, and for which the fathers may be long gone, and to bring them up."

TT: That's a reason to murder a human? Decent women do not conceive babies and then kill them.

It's compelling countless other women to go back to the ages of "backstreet abortions", undergoing painful, dangerous procedures, and sometimes even dying.

TT: Aw, poor things... might get hurt while they commit murder, eh? Oh, the injustice of it....

It's wrecking the lives of many young girls who, without the chance to abort, have to sacrifice their current concerns and in many cases their futures to care for a child.

TT: Oh, yes, "the young girls," whose parents brought them up to be sluts and murderesses. Aw, the pain of those poor young things... Truly, they are just unfortunate ignorant pawns of their miserable parents, but that's still not justification for murder of an innocent human.

Above all, it's denying women the choice to decide what happens to their own bodies, on the mere basis of some tenuous text with no significant historically or scientifically established veracity.

TT: No, Einstein, it is not on the basis of som tenous text. The fact is that a fetus is a living human with all the organs you have and 100% more sense.

You might not be "playing God", but you're getting damn close.

TT: Defenders of murderers are despicable monsters. If they are too stupid to understand the facts, they are less responsible and thus one can pity their meagre minds that cannot reason and possibly excuse them from moral responsibility. You know, people who just haven't got the intellect to understand right vs. wrong. Or the severely mentally disturbed who have an illness that truly makes it impossible for them to see the difference between right and wrong. But people who are not in either of these classes who support murdering innocent humans are despicable monsters.

But they are not eternally lost until there are no more chances for them to repent. So you have some time before it will be too late -- or do you? If you die tonight, well, have a nice evening. :lol:
 

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First of all, can you learn to use the quote button. It makes things a lot more clear.

TT: Aw, poor things... might get hurt while they commit murder, eh? Oh, the injustice of it....
It's not murder, though, is it?

I'm perfectly open to the possibility that, in mid pregnancy, a baby can be considered "human". However there is a difference between simply being the organism biologically and being a "person".

I also find it highly ironic for a Christian fundamentalist to be complaining about murder. In a recent browse through the material in writing up a History paper I found that in Scotland people were being hung as "heretics" as late as the early twentieth century! And don't even get me started on witch burning...

TT: Oh, yes, "the young girls," whose parents brought them up to be sluts and murderesses. Aw, the pain of those poor young things... Truly, they are just unfortunate ignorant pawns of their miserable parents, but that's still not justification for murder of an innocent human.
Perhaps you'd get a better understanding of the "real world" if you didn't spend all that time posting fundamentalist messages on an internet message board.

The reality is that these girls very often are not simply "sluts". Some are, yes. But many girls have sex underage these days, in fact probably most. Sometimes they forget to use contraception. Other times it doesn't work, and one "slips through". A minority, sadly a growing number, get raped and fall pregnant.

In any case, I don't think these people are simply "sluts", nor do I think it's time to "blame the parents" for underage sex. The issue is a lot more complex than that, and your attempts to portray it in "black and white" terms don't cut it.

TT: No, Einstein, it is not on the basis of som tenous text.
So prove me wrong, rather than simply hurling insults and sarcasm at me.

As far as I'm concerned, in fact as far as anybody reasonable is concerned, the burden of proof to establish that your sacred text - i.e. the Bible - is valid lays with you.

I've yet to see a single valid historical or scientific evaluation to show that the Bible is based on truth. In fact the opposite seems to be the case. We have no contemporaneous mention of Jesus, or even one like him, in any of the Ancient sources. We have no scientific evidence that seems to substantiate your view that human life is only 6,000 years old. Nor do we have a shred of information seeming to show that God is in existence and can influence events. Scientists have been looking for this stuff for 300 years. Nothing has turned up.

If you're text doesn't rest on shaky foundations, prove it. When it comes to matters that affect and have affected the lives of thousands - probably millions - of people, we need to be very sure of ourselves indeed.

TT: Defenders of murderers are despicable monsters. If they are too stupid to understand the facts, they are less responsible and thus one can pity their meagre minds that cannot reason and possibly excuse them from moral responsibility. You know, people who just haven't got the intellect to understand right vs. wrong. Or the severely mentally disturbed who have an illness that truly makes it impossible for them to see the difference between right and wrong. But people who are not in either of these classes who support murdering innocent humans are despicable monsters.
Nice to see that you're willing to pull out the "mental illness" card :roll: .
Of course, we only fail to see your point of view because we're "mentally disturbed"!

Kindly leave it out.

But they are not eternally lost until there are no more chances for them to repent. So you have some time before it will be too late -- or do you? If you die tonight, well, have a nice evening.
That I will! :)

To be honest, at least in Hell I wouldn't have to put up with those bloody Christians.
 
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The thing that always fascinates me about people who enjoy preaching morality to others is that (in the name of Christian love) they seem to have a palpable and near-delicious sadism in their enthusiasm while "guiding" others to grace. Lots of sinister delight is clear as day. Well, to me at least.

If everyone who relished pointing fingers and shouting "God's gonna get ya!" would spend that energy helping someone, perhaps volunteering at a children's hospital, maybe Christianty would have a better reputation world wide.
 

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Monkey,

I would gladly use the quote button, but apparently I have to copy the tags to each paragraph manually if I want to respond to things you write paragraph by paragraph.

Do you know another way that doesn't involve copying tags to each paragraph?

Thanks.

I'd like to respond to your last post without driving you crazier than necessary! :oops:
 

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JanineBaker said:
The thing that always fascinates me about people who enjoy preaching morality to others is that (in the name of Christian love) they seem to have a palpable and near-delicious sadism in their enthusiasm while "guiding" others to grace. Lots of sinister delight is clear as day. Well, to me at least.
All civil law in every society has always condemned unjust killing of the innocent. If you call that preaching morality, then yes, I am guilty. Ad hominems are really beneath you, Janine.

"Near-delicious sadism"? What are you talking about? That I use hyperbole? Do you really think I am personally threatening anyone here? If you do, I am shocked. Utterly shocked.

I am a volatile personality -- but that doesn't mean I wish evil on anyone here, and I am not the one throwing insults. I'm stating my beliefs and attempting to argue the point that killing innocent humans is evil. And yet, and yet, what have we? People who are actually defending the killing of humans?

JanineBaker said:
If everyone who relished pointing fingers and shouting "God's gonna get ya!" would spend that energy helping someone, perhaps volunteering at a children's hospital, maybe Christianty would have a better reputation world wide.
Oh, please. That's standard fare. Why get hung up on the human foibles of poor old stupid and clumsy Sojourner? She's just an idiot that believes in God, right? So she's pretty forgiving and tries to help people in her own terribly annoying way. But she'd rather defend the principle. And she isn't the one who starts nastiness, you know.

But hey, you all are ganging up on me and now the Forum Queen hates me, too.

Okay, I'll be quiet. I won't talk about the evil of babykilling any more.

And I don't expect anyone to talk to me anymore. I see I'm in enemy territory, just like an innocent human baby in the womb of some woman who will without batting an eye, suck the brains out of the unborn child.

How can you people not see the utter monstrosity that you are defending. You, who think you are so enlightened, support murder and condemn me because I dare to say that God will punish murderer?

I just don't get it.

So what if I get emotional? Am I hurling insults at people when they insult me? No. All I said what what I believe. But you folks cannot tolerate that. You can tolerate murdering innocents, but you cannot tolerate me speaking my mind.

Shame on you!!!

But of course I am a fool. I am still just a 23-year-old Christian and I am just not smart enough to know that this was a poor venue.

So, I will say, I think you all are lovely people, and I mean it. You intend only the best for everyone. You hate me because I come prancing in and condemn abortion. Well, it serves me right. Wrong venue, no allies. Homeskooled probably agrees with me (of course he agrees with me) but he's not as dumb as I am to have started this.

So, you all win.

I shall stop now. No more abortion condemnation. I promise.

I'm sorry for disrupting the forum. Please forgive me.
 

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I have to say one more thing (and maybe there will be a couple more after this) to Monkey:

When I said it wasn't based on some tenuous text, I was referring to the fact that it is based on SCIENCE. What the "it" is, of course, is the fact that an unborn child is alive. That's what I was talking about. It's a human creature with a heart, a brain, and it is alive. It can feel pain, it can hear, it can sense temperature, it lives, just like you and me.

I was not arguing the validity of the Old or New Testaments.
 

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Monkey,

So an innocent human who happens to be conceived in a rape is GUILTY and should be MURDERED? Any fetus is totally innocent.

Or shall we murder the innocent descendants of people who do evil? If your father killed someone, by your logic, we should kill you.

Rape, incest, whatever -- the point is the same -- the life you want to kill is innocent human life. You do see this; you cannot NOT see this. But why do you deny the wrongness of it? You know it's wrong. I know you do.
 

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Monkey,

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. What I was saying about mental illness is simply that persons who are not able to think properly cannot be held morally responsible for their actions. I was not putting you into that category. Proof of that is that what got you all so bothered was that I said you WERE morally responsible.

I know you all are just so frustrated with me and like to call me a "Christian fundamentalist" but you are using the term incorrectly. Catholics are not "Christian fundamentalists" (the term means something else).

I would have preferred not to have been nasty at all, but I am weak. I admit my mistakes, but I have never ever seen a single one of you admit you started name-calling or ugliness. Never. You know I didn't start it. I'm not proud that I started doing the same thing, but please have the decency to admit your part in all this. Or don't; it doesn't matter.

And one final (this is really it) thing; the hostility you have shown from outset to the ideas of Christianity began long before I even got here. I noticed that after reading various threads.

I do apologize for my part in any unpleasantness. I do wish we could have argued the issues without getting impatient and insulting with one another, and I sincerely regret my part in all this. I am sure that you are all very good and decent people. But your attacking me got to me, and I am just a flawed and remarkably volatile sinner.

I am so sorry for my behavior. I am sure God's got something special planned for me.
 

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Hmmm....

I've been on this forum a long time, and as some of you may have noticed, I dont have those many posts. I like to "think" before I type, so to speak. I want what I write to be clear, concise, intelligent, and have a postive effect on whomever I am addressing. I want my meaning to be clear. And I dont want attention. That being said, at times I feel it is better to be quiet and then perhaps later to carefully measure my words. I happen to agree with a great deal of what Sojourner posts, and there is a certain amount of selfless fervor in your posts which I find admirable. Oftentimes when people are claiming not to judge others, what they really mean is they are saving face so that they will not be called a bigot. It is a desire for acceptance which overrides a desire for truth. But I have found that there is a great need for diplomacy in daily life as well as in our "internet lives". I have always had an innate desire to sympathize with people whom I may not necessarily agree with and to understand the reasons why they choose what they choose. St. Thomas Aquinas once said that religion is a human imperfection. It is a (necessary) human construct which helps us to understand God. I am in some ways a very average 24 year old guy. I dont "enjoy" Church or religion. I cant eat, sleep, and breathe Church 24/7 like some of my friends. I am a very nuts-and-bolts religous guy. Living a moral life is its own reward - living an immoral life is its own reward as well. Catholicism teaches me how to be the best version of myself, and I read its theology to answer my questions about why, or about how these answers were arrived at. My parents were very, very preachy and obsessed with religion, and it seemed only to isolate them. Because of all of this, I have had a rather innate aversion to sounding preachy or polarizing arguments. Goodness, if it truly exists and is truly of God, should speak for itself. We lead best by example. It should, to others, look honest, clear, rational, and rewarding. Evil is the shortcut in our lives which leads to irrationality, deceit, and unhappiness. Vice weakens, virtue strengthens.

What do I beleive about abortion? It is wrong. Mother Teresa of Calcutta said that the eventual fruit of abortion is nuclear war. Sounds extreme, doesnt it? Pope John Paul, when he visited the US under President Clinton, said that it is impossible to build a just society if we do not protect the weakest and smallest humans in it. When we make children a choice or a means, its only a small step towards mistreating them when they are born. And them mistreating others when they get older. And so the value of a human is weakened, and a vicious cycle of maltreatment begins. If you fail to see that your own happiness is tied up in the happiness of others, and you begin to see the life of another as an obstacle to it, then any kind of action against others can be justified. The most common reason I have seen for abortion is convenience.

It's compelling countless other women to go back to the ages of "backstreet abortions", undergoing painful, dangerous procedures, and sometimes even dying.

TT: Aw, poor things... might get hurt while they commit murder, eh? Oh, the injustice of it....
Thats probably something I wouldnt have typed, or I wouldn't have typed in that way, but its a good point nonetheless. I wont justify a crime just because someone might get hurt while doing it. Yes, it is dangerous. Its almost as dangerous nowadays. There is nothing gentle about a medical abortion, and frankly, its a quite underdeveloped branch of medicine. Doctors are idiots, yes. We all know that here. But they arent stupid. They've all delivered enough babies for them to know the difference between a human and a tumor, something I've heard people liken a fetus to. Abortionists are the most despised of all doctors in the medical profession. Doctors hate handing out referrals to them, and when they do, as I've seen it, they reprimand the women and remind them that this should not be their choice for contraception. Then they send them over to the women's hospital, to the one of 3 or four abortionists on staff whom the faculty see as a "necessary evil", and terminate the life and the pregnancy with 1970s equipment and alot of internal bleeding. Its not safe. It physically scars a woman's insides. She'll have miscarriages in the future becuase of it. And its usually black women from the poor sides of town who do use it as a means of contraception. No, I've never even heard of it being used for a rape case in our city of 4 million county residents. That argument is such a red herring....rapes are rarer than other forms of violent crimes. If one occurs, it must occur on one of two days a month that a woman can conceive. I know its another plea for sympathy for women who get abortions, but its just not the real state of medical abortions in the world. Abortions are done, on the whole, for poor women, minorities mostly, who are not exercising sexual restraint, and for whom more children would not be convenient, fun, or monetarily desirable.

It's wrecking the lives of many young girls who, without the chance to abort, have to sacrifice their current concerns and in many cases their futures to care for a child.

TT: Oh, yes, "the young girls," whose parents brought them up to be sluts and murderesses. Aw, the pain of those poor young things... Truly, they are just unfortunate ignorant pawns of their miserable parents, but that's still not justification for murder of an innocent human.

Above all, it's denying women the choice to decide what happens to their own bodies, on the mere basis of some tenuous text with no significant historically or scientifically established veracity.

TT: No, Einstein, it is not on the basis of som tenous text. The fact is that a fetus is a living human with all the organs you have and 100% more sense.

You might not be "playing God", but you're getting damn close.

TT: Defenders of murderers are despicable monsters. If they are too stupid to understand the facts, they are less responsible and thus one can pity their meagre minds that cannot reason and possibly excuse them from moral responsibility. You know, people who just haven't got the intellect to understand right vs. wrong. Or the severely mentally disturbed who have an illness that truly makes it impossible for them to see the difference between right and wrong. But people who are not in either of these classes who support murdering innocent humans are despicable monsters
I have to take some exception to these remarks. I guess I take exception to the word slut in general, even when its deserved, because its so derogatory to another human being. And I dont know just how sexually immoral one must be to be considered a slut. I do know that Mary Magdalene was considered one, but I think remarks like that would have hampered and not helped her conversion. Yes, they commit murder, but they truly may not know what they do. In that way, its much like a person charged with manslaughter, and culpability is diminshed. I dont think that most people who defend abortion see it as murder, or even if that occurs to them, they really dont want to beleive it is. And if one is raised without beliefs about what makes us human, or gives us our innate dignity, I guess it would be even easier to rationalize it. I think many people are saving face by being politically correct, and that , secretly, many people sympathize with the prospect of having a baby out of wedlock and solving their predicament borne of irresponsibility in this manner. Nobody likes to pay the piper. In the end alot of it is about selfishness, irresponsiblity, or lack of education. They are not necessarily monsters with meager minds, or if they are, everyone with sinful tendencies is. The key is educate and teach people that we dont need to live our lives like this - its miserable. There are ways to live our lives and build our society which are so much more truthful, and free, and rational, and productive. And they are built upon thought and values and actions that last. I seriously am considering going into politics, and everyday situations like this are a good way to refine one's beliefs and one's arguments. You cant get anywhere by polarizing the argument - you have to lead by example.

Peace
Homeskooled
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Shadow Cat-

they are against it because they are poor misunderstood souls that are convinced that the fetus can feel or think. Truth is, this is where the VAST majority of abortions happen (edit: 'this' meaning at a time where the fetus does not feel or think)

The embryo is actually not even a fetus yet, I don't believe. The embryo is the size of a pencil eraser and is kind of like a sac of various tissues without any kind of consciousness. The videos you see where a doctor goes in and rips the baby out part by part? Absloute propoganda. There may be some cases where that is necessary, but it is so few and so far between...I would go so far as to say 95-99% of aborting women have the abortion early enough to where the embryo is that tiny pencil eraser.

And, yes, the embryo at that point is by all definitions a parasite. Not a human life. It can go (as in get flushed out) in my book.

ooOOoooOOOOoo I'm so eeeeeeeeevil! i'm like Dr. Evil! I went to Evil medical school! It's my bag, baby!

(oh i'm not a christian but didn't jesus say something about casting the first stone? WHY DOES EVERY CHRISTIAN FORGET THAT OMG LOLZ!)
 

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Thanks, Homeskooled. I appreciate your comments and thoughts. I am ashamed of the terrible example I gave. All I can do is try to really learn something useful from this and move on. I think I've given enough apologies to individuals.
 

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Person 3,
To recognize a difference between right and wrong choices isn't stoning someone. Berating them for it isn't either. Insulting or condemning them as lesser people than you, because of their faults, is.

No, you haven't gone to evil medical school. They would have taught you that what you are defending is first trimester abortions. After the first 4 weeks, the cerebellum is divided into two lobes (the cerebellum is the seat of consciousness) and after 6 weeks the entire nervous system is formed. By week 11, the baby is making attempts to suckle. Most women do not know they are pregnant until somewhere after the fourth week. Most terminations occur between weeks 6 and 12. Any abortion after it is larger than a pencil eraser, which would be around week three, will severe parts of the baby's body. Any abortion performed after week 10 is incredibly grotesque. Second trimester abortions, weeks 12-24, are quite common. Third trimester are rare, thank god. And I cant understand why everyone equates one's capacity to think with life - this is one of the leading rationalizations for eugenics and cleansing of undesirables from society. Be them old and senile, young and handicapped, or black and uneducated. Worth is not base on intelligence. To quote a better poster than I, a mind is a terrible thing. Waste it. Dont judge people who have an inferior one.

Peace
Homeskooled
 
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