[DutchMark]

A friend of mine who also suffers from severe DP for several years now, has been to a astral projection specialist guy person whatever. Because this friend also sometimes sees astral things. He explained the DP to him and this guy said he thinks that there is some sort of evolution in the human mind taking place wich is resulting in more and more "DP like" symptoms. The new generation is developing a higher self conciousnes and a better understandig of "being alive". This could also be the reason why THC can bring it on the front, it's just that we are not able to handle it because we find ourselfs lost in our own mind.
I think he maybe has a point there what do you people think of this :?:

 

[Guest]

this is odd as I was considering this very possibility the other day... basically something along the lines that people vulnerable to DP actually have an evolutionary "jump" in there genetic makeup. That we have characteristics that are "premature" and can't be realized in the present state of humanity and thus make us suffer, but that will eventually be advantageous in the future...

I started thinking this after hearing an interview on the radio with a geneticist who was asked if he thought homosexuality was genetic. He replied that he did believe it was, but that the genes that cause homosexuality today, in a different environment, thousands of years ago, might have come out (no pun intended) as a greater skill at hunting... or beadwork... or whatever. So it got me to thinking: perhaps the genes that give us or make us vulnerable to DP/DR are just showing up in the wrong era of human history, and that, in a different age, these genes might allow a person some benefit, or evince themselves in a different manner. Perhaps an ability for telepathy or precognition, or something we can't fathom yet.

:idea:

 

[Guest]

bullshit

 

[dakotajo]

I think somebodies been dropping acid.

 

[JasonFar]

I think DutchMark's words are perfectly logical and accurate, not concerning DP... I think we as a species (maybe not collectively) are gaining a larger consciousness/intelligence (whatever that implies exactly; I've got my picture of it which may or not compare to others'), and therefore dissociation as a symptom, is more prominent in today's culture/society than before. Especially when we live in such isolated times engulfed with technology, dehumanizing advertising and all that wonderful jazz... It's much easier to lose your sense of Self in a society where Ultimate Self (again, whatever that means... me likey buzz words) is hardly something obtained by most. It's much easier to spin out of control, especially when the "roots" which a lot of us aren't supplied with are pulled out from under the rug.

I understand SB and DakotaJoe's posts, because when in misery of depression/anxiety/loss of Self it seems superfulous and, well, utterly ridiculous to see dissociation and all its relative terms and symptoms as some sort of enlightenment, but I think there is "some" truth to it, angering as that may be.

~Jason

 

[JasonFar]

Also, I believe it was the philosopher Hegel who's fundamental worldview was that as Human's progressed (or maybe it was even the Universe), they would, along the course of their evolution, come to "know themselves", or "itself" in the case of the Universe. This, in his view (don't mark my words), was the state in which we were to reach eventually, a full and total knowing of oneself... We're just a dot on that infinite line of evolution.

WHO KNOWS.

~Jason

 

[Guest]

bullshit

HaHaHa

I know I'm annoying...

I think my Mum, my Brother, and my Auntie Majella NEED dp desperately...
Expose the hell out of them, THROW THEM deep into humanity... scare the weaklings to DEATH.

I'd love to show people my SELFLESS reality... and watch them... subordinate.

 

[Guest]

OI

Humility... God's trying to trigger HUMILITY.

We've lost our humility and awareness of the autonomy of others.
Humility is seen as defectiveness, and awareness of autonomy of others, is seen as putting your defences down...

I think dp/dr is felt by those born with empathy though...
All mental states start in emotions, dont they???

I think dp/dr respects human life better.
It's closer to human-ness because it puts you under a microscope...
Dunno. My head's in deep shock...

 

[Guest]

Hey, life and being and existing IS STRANGE

I will never say that is bullshit, allthough I am not behind you in this. But I think life is strange enough to agree with this.

A belli dancer...

Life is strange enough, to agree, that we could be DPing as a grand plan.
:|

We were apes, and soon we'll be DP DR to get us closer to God and have more UNDERSTANDING of being alive - wow, understatement there, boy...
If psychic ability is READING ENERGY, we must be close.
Shock does that to ya

 

[Martinelv]

Drivel. Absolute drivel. Another sickening example of the pushers of psuedo-cosmic-reality garbage onto the vunerable.

My old friend Jason tells us to keep an open mind.....why ? For what purpose ? Black is black, an apple is an apple, DR/DP is a fucking illness for christs sake. This dreamy speculation (AT BEST) is very dangerous for the mentally ill.....very.

 

[DutchMark]

Drivel. Absolute drivel. Another sickening example of the pushers of psuedo-cosmic-reality garbage onto the vunerable.

Well, i'm sorry :shock:

I don't like it when people throw each others believes with the garbage, I'd thought this might be a enjoyable topic but you're reaction is just an example of extreme black/white thinking. It's not that everything has to be taken that seriously!

 

[Beth]

Hmmm...I think it's a dangerous way to think. Several times, when I've felt almost better I've felt myself sort of pushing myself back into it, to see if it's still there, because it does feel like some kind of insight, something you don't completely want to lose. But actually I know do completely want to lose it, and I think you've got to really want to, to get anywhere close to real life again. But I see the temptation. Without believing in anything mystical/spiritual/religious at all, I've still been trying to rationalise this into an enlightenment of some kind. Well, it is related to feelings that religious and spiritual people have felt, and written about, but that doesn't make everything they said true, or the state of mind desirable.

 

[lone wolf]

Well, i'm sorry :shock:

I don't like it when people throw each others believes with the garbage, I'd thought this might be a enjoyable topic but you're reaction is just an example of extreme black/white thinking. It's not that everything has to be taken that seriously!

Don't be sorry, I enjoyed this discussion. If somebody thinks thoughts like this are dangerous and/or bullshit, it is just her/his opinion. By the way, I see a point in this way of thinking, but regarding psychotic states of mind. In many indigenous cultures their belief system is shamanism. People who become visionary shamans, use to be called by spirits - and bc of that they must go through an emotional turmoil, which is called the shaman's sickness. It is a kind of psychosis, which the neophyte experiences and finally conquers it and has a total recovery - since then s/he has learned to master her/his visionary skills and can act as a shaman.

In this current modern culture there is a collective denial toward any visionary states of mind, which can be seen both in the opinions regarding psychosis (just a destructive mental illness) and psychoactive drugs (which are illegal). Yet there have been at least two psychiatric studies by doctors R.D. Laing and J.W. Perry, which showed one can recover totally after a psychotic period. Those studies showed that psychosis is rather a way to heal from traumatic experiences and an unhealthy state of mind than just a final plunge into insanity. However, the mainstream psychiatry hardly embraces the scientific results of those studies done in 60's and 70's, and I find it weird. I guess it is because this current western society is in denial toward nonordinary states of mind.

I think this is a sad situation, because in this way many people are doomed to take antipsychotic medication even for the rest of their lives and never have the chance to fully recover. If psychiatry could find another view toward these kind of psychological/spiritual experiences, it might be beneficial for the mental health of lots of people. (Well, these are just my little opinions, hopefully nobody will become annoyed bc of them.)

 

[Martinelv]

I'm sorry too DutchMark. It's just that I feel very passionately about the subject. I'm not getting at you, just the people who write that sort of crap.

Black and white thinking, OK. I stand convicted. In the same way that I think in black and white terms about, say, cancer. Is cancer another evolutionary step forward ? Should we keep an open mind ? Would you go up to someone on a cancer word and say..'Well, maybe your cancer is the lizard god from the planets zargos zapping your with his mind rays so to create another organ'. ? Or perhaps a paeodophile...think up some bilge to enourage him to molest more children ? It's the same thing. DR/DP is an illness, FULL STOP, you know it, I know it, everone on this board knows it, and the WORST, the absolute worst thing for suffers, who - incidently, have obsessional rumination on life, the universe and everything because of their SYMPTOMS, to be reeled in by some meaningless rot by someone who wants to promote their 'theory' ?

Psychiatric wards are full of previously vunerable people who have been sucked into 'alternative theories' (mainstream religion being the most common one !) about the nature of mental illness. You should go and see them. It's not a pretty sight.

I had a friend who, after being visited by a 'spiritual healer', was persuaded by her to give up his conventional treatment for leaukemia and indulge in crystal therapy or some such bollocks. He died. False hope. And don't get the impression I'm a whore of conventional medicine, because I'm not, but I'd like to see the stats of the amount of people who've been helped by chemotherapy and those who've been advised by some nut-case with a sticky idea. Really, I'd like to know...and not from those ever-so reliable stats we get pumped down our throats in Sunday newspaper magazines. You know the type of rag I'm talking about...the same magazines that say Hitler is living in a cave on the moon.

Enough of this shit, and we won't need any other outside influence to whip up our madness.[/u]

 

[lone wolf]

In the same way that I think in black and white terms about, say, cancer. Is cancer another evolutionary step forward ? -- DR/DP is an illness

I agree with you. But while we are suffering, it is sometimes fun to think about weird theories :wink: However, it is sad that sometimes people see these kinds of things too seriously and get in trouble, i.e. New Age thinkers in the mental wards. But instead of embracing the curious idea of some evolutionary step in the collective unconscious, I think this way of thinking could be seen like this:

The society, in which we are living, is alienated from nature and I see this individualistic lifestyle in crowded cities with strict time-tables etc. highly artificial, which gives quite a lot of stress to each one of us. That's why I think it is no wonder why some people develop DP/DR and/or other psychological problems, as one must cope with the stressful reality of modern society every day. (At least I think this may be one reason why I'm experiencing DR.) Instead of an evolutionary step I see DP/DR as a coping mechanism for stress/trauma that some people use instinctually. That kind of people may be more sensitive in some ways than an "average person" (sorry for this concept, I hate it too but I couldn't find a better one) is. So instead of the evolutionary thinking, it might be the question of sensitivity.

The same with the shamans in indigenous cultures - those people are in some ways more sensitive than the other members in their society, and that's why they feel called by spirits and go through the visionary psychosis, i.e. the shaman's sickness. I think people who experience psychotic states of mind in this culture might benefit from some cultural evolution in the society around them - I mean if there would be more understanding toward the mechanisms of human psyche, people experiencing acute psychosis could go through their healing processes - i.e. the "shaman's sickness" - in a safe environment or something like that. Who knows, maybe it might be true in the future?

So I didn't take this question of evolution in a literal sense, but rather metaphorically. I'm pretty sure anyone with psychological problems, may them be psychosis/dissociative disorders/anxiety/etc. would benefit from more humane culture. This is the evolutionary step for me, a step from this highly rational/individualistic society to more sensitive and human friendly culture. OK, these are my little thoughts... Anyone agree/disagree? :roll:

 

[Martinelv]

<Duplicate>

 

[Martinelv]

I agree with you to a certain degree - that DP/DR is a defence mechanism, a natural reaction to stress. The problem is when people get 'stuck' in the fear cycle, and DR/DP becomes a problem in itself.

However, we have to be cautious with the R.D. Laing approach of mental illness being a sane reaction to an insane world. If that were the case, then we'd all being going mad. And by who's standards is the world insane ? Regardless, I'm sure that there would still be mentally ill people in the most perfect of worlds, but yes, you're right - it's a question of sensitivity. And I don't think we should be sucked into the premise that 'western', with all it's stresses and strains, is more likely to induce mental illness. It's far more complicated than that, and I think that the reason we notice more people with mental illness in our culture is because: a.) Information - everyone knows everything about everyone. b.) We expect it to be treated. I'd be mightily suprised is there wasn't any schizophrenics in isolated pygmy tribes in the congo. It's a human condition.

Perhaps, as I've postulated from time to time, that 'true' intelligence is self-defeating...unable to cope with the demands of our curiosity. Think about it - we're getting better and better at fucking everything up, like a tumor eating away it's host. Dolphins, while intelligent, aren't screwing up the oceans. Perhaps, like a dying star that has exhausted it's fuel, human 'intelligence' will reach a point where we will all go insane....

But then again, some people learn to not give a damn, others wrap themselves in religion, others drugs, and the less fortunate develop DR/DP..

 

[Guest]

I agree with Martin (which always scares me, :wink: )

I had the same kinds of thoughts during the depth of my symptoms... I constantly questioned if maybe I was "onto" something powerful, something beyond the average human's insights, etc....very "Celestine Prophecy"

It's a lie.

It's an illusion born from the state of BEING mentally ill. And yes, it can be very dangerous to wallow in those thoughts because they take you even farther away from the real world, and they make you more isolated than you already are - albeit, in the delusion this time that you are BETTER than average, not "defective."

That's how it usually comes about, too. We feel so terribly inadequate because we're not able to function in the real world, so our narcissisism creates a "happy delusion" to soothe us. What if we are really BETTER than those ordinary humans? What if we are Special or Chosen for something more profound that all those ordinary people can not discern?

They, the ordinary, care about love and work and doing something creative and forming something meaningful...all things we can't do. So it can be very tempting to believe our own concoctions that lure us with feelings of superiority rather than defect.

It's the spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down. But it's dangerous.

Keep your focus OUTward onto the real world. Trust me.

Peace,
Janine

 

[Guest]

Drivel. Absolute drivel. Another sickening example of the pushers of psuedo-cosmic-reality garbage onto the vunerable.

My old friend Jason tells us to keep an open mind.....why ? For what purpose ? Black is black, an apple is an apple, DR/DP is a f--- illness for christs sake. This dreamy speculation (AT BEST) is very dangerous for the mentally ill.....very.

Drivel.

my little opinions

'Well, maybe your cancer is the lizard god from the planets zargos zapping your with his mind rays so to create another organ'

Hitler living in a cave on the moon, martinelv, is what you say about your friend with leaukemia true?
Does narcissism mean self love? You need a narcissistic delusion when you're REALLY depressed, or else you die.

 

[Martinelv]

Yep, entirely true. He was probably going to die anyway, as his type of leaukemia had only a 10% survival rate beyond a year, but that bastard just had to speed it along a little with her pious vomit, and gave false hope to his wife, his eight year old daughter, and most of her friends. I hope she sleeps well at night.