[Brainsilence02]

Using words under doubt: I assume that crediting or acknowledgement involves giving congratulations and honors to someone.

I am embarassed to say this, but I need your oppinion.

I impulsively (in an instinctive way) credit myself for unimportant things that I do. I take a minor achievement and convert it into a big feat inside my imagination. I am imaging situations honoring for me. I re-create an imaginary version of a real incident the way I would like it to happen (of fource the imaginary version is to my advantage and is crediting me). I imagine revenge upon things that still bother me of the past.

The resault of these thoughts is that I feel better. Of cource, I understand that it is not right: I am living a fantasy that could very easily absorb me and destroy me.

This is happening at many levels of the personality. I try to stop it wherever I "see" it, but it appears to be in a greater extent than I can percieve it. I have the sense that I will not be able to kill it

The reason I placed this topic in DP discussion is because it must be contributing to the cumulative thing that DP is.

Has anyone met this beafore?

 

[Guest]

I have fantasies too. Its kinda fun actaully, infact, i did some before i was on this bored. I was at a rave with this really cool tight outfit. It was really cool

 

[Sojourner]

The other side of the coin is that "visualization" is often recommended as a helpful thing to do -- to imagine oneself in a situation in which one is succeeding at the task at hand and feeling happy about what he or she is doing.

Or like Wayne Dyer says, "Think from the end."

I did something like that before I went to grad school; I visualized myself going to classes and studying, and liking it, and I felt comfortable doing it. It made me feel good. When I did it in real life, it was very similar to the visualization.

The visualization has to be for something in the future that you want to do, but may have mixed feelings about, or nervousness about, or even fear about. The thing to do is to imagine yourself in that situation -- but feeling relaxed and happy. You are totally free of nervousness and anxiety, and you are functioning just as you know in your heart you most want to function. You face the future fear in your imagination by putting yourself in the situation and simultaneously IMAGINING that you are relaxed and happy.

But going backward in time to exalt ourselves isn't going to help. Do the other side of the coin that I talked about above. You don't want to suggest to your mind things that are not possible. Just imagine yourself in a situation that will be coming up and imagine that you are peaceful, engaged, totally without anything resembling anxiety, confident, and joyful.

Try it and let me know how it goes! I believe it works. It is our wishes projected into the future that we can impress upon our suggestible minds that will actually do us some good.

 

[person3]

i think you guys are talking about two different types of visualization here.

one, a productive kind, is where you say "hey, i want to achieve this goal in life" and you imagine yourself doing it.

a less productive kind would be to say "hey, I'm going to be famous for this."

I don't know if it's necessarily BAD, but something important to be brought up...it says some things about you and your personality if anything.

I think there's also a difference between the occasional dream of seeing your name in lights, in the sense that its something you hope for but aren't life-or-death set on, and the constant conviction that soon everybody will see how famous you are.

The revenge thing, in my opinion, is slightly more dangerous; I do it sometimes but not as much as I used to...a lot of that has improved by re-forming relationships with a lot of the people these revenge fantasies were about, if possible. Sometimes when I'm more tired or something I have them. It's kind of like a cover-up, a way to get SOMETHING good out of feeling so bad or powerless about something. But you don't have to feel as bad as you think you do in the first place. One of the things is to keep trying to remind yourself that YOU are the one responsible for the situations in your life, not these people. I read in a book once: Be the board. Meaning, often we view ourselves and others as players on a gameboard. But if you view yourself as the WHOLE board, in the sense that you internalize all those actions and say "i was responsible for my part in this situation, I am only mad because i let them get as far as they did or because I couldn't change them to NOT do what they did, i couldn't control them, and this situation probably isn't even the real problem anyway"...basically view yourself as the whole board, the one responsible for everything that goes on in your life.

There are some instances where someone does something maliciously towards you, and intends it. The best thing you can do is forgive them. I still stand by forgiving them in person, or apologizing for your part in the problem (well, if insurance or attorneys are involved don't apologize! but for more everyday situations, try to talk it out with them). A female rabbi stated in her book that one must attempt THREE times, IN PERSON, to make contact with whom they are mad at, to make amends. If this person was just some total jerk I wouldn't bother, but if it was a family member or a friend, definitely try it.

Through forgiveness, re-forming relationships, and taking responsiblity for your feelings and your part in the situation, taking TOTAL responsibility for how you feel no matter how bad the feeling is, not only do you gain more power and confidence but the person's importance diminishes in your mind. And when you have more power and confidence and self assurance, you will have less fantasies about seeking revenge on the world or certain people.

--------

i guess to elaborate on the "famous" fantasies, that is more tricky but my personal experience and advice is this: if you have a fantasy about something like singing, acting, performing, writing, anything...try it out in real life. go to an audition no matter how small. sing on stage. sing karaoke in a bar. submit your writing to a contest. or even a publishing company! If you wallow all day in those fantasies and never try those things in reality, that is where it gets dangerous as you're using those fantasies to replace reality. But if you have the burning desire to star in a play, do the steps it takes to get there.

Part of what you learn in DP is something most people may not be lucky enough to grasp (or will they?): this is the chance to examine those fantasies and actually sort through and see which ones you want to try in real life, and go for things that you probably would have never attempted before when you were in a world of comfort.

I think part of dp is a warning sign that you have spent too much time dreaming about doing things and never actually doing them. and you substitute fantasy for reality until you can't tell them apart.

I noticed after a re-read your fantasies that you mentioned were based on achievements you already have done blown to a larger proportion. I'm not sure about that one, I'll think about it though.

Something that did concern me is this:

"I re-create an imaginary version of a real incident the way I would like it to happen (of fource the imaginary version is to my advantage and is crediting me). "

I think on many levels that is normal, but be wary of if you are REFUSING to accept the reality of what has happened...

if, for example, you were constantly fantasizing that your lover never left you, that could be rather bad...

but if you are talking about something like "man, I wish in that interview I had done this and this instead of what I did"

that would be more normal.

i also read somewhere that fantasies are a normal coping mechanism to buffer us from very strong feelings, but do not wallow in them. A fleeting one on the drive home is different from staying in bed all day re-creating the situation.

 

[Guest]

That was a very good post person3. I had "revenge" things tied more with fantasies, where i'd be doing something really impressive for everyone to see.

I think its a look into some of my deepest feelings. Looking into it does make me think its a product of insecurity. But its also an honest look into what you really desire. Just ask why.

 

[Ben]

All,

Interesting thread, and person3, nice response. I actually believe very much in what person3 says here - mostly, that if you have constant daydreams or visualizations or imaginings about certain things, it's best to explore them.

Growing up I daydreamed a lot, and one of the things I daydreamed about was being up on stage, playing a guitar. Well, doing it makes me feel very good and appeases a side of me. The act of doing it can become somehwat obsessive - and I really enjoy performance and, well, I do it....but I had to meet that daydream head on to accomplish that side of me.

I think, in the least analytical sense, it boils down to this: If you're daydreaming about it, or visualizing/imagining it, then it's a strong enough part of your awareness that it something worth exploring/fixing/facing.

This thread could get very, very deep, potentially - but I think it all boils down to this: unfinished business.

 

[Brainsilence02]

Thaks everyone for participating. It is very important to me. Processing (and solving) this issue will result a great victory in this war I am into.

I don't know if it's necessarily BAD, but something important to be brought up...it says some things about you and your personality if anything.

Tell me what it means about me and my personality. That's why I posted this text. I am trying to kill this thing.

I think there's also a difference between the occasional dream of seeing your name in lights, in the sense that its something you hope for but aren't life-or-death set on, and the constant conviction that soon everybody will see how famous you are.

I, frequently, see my name in the lights. Not for something that has to do with art, like painting, music, acting, etc; but for personality features, like an article, a scientific application, and other stuff like that. The thought that "soon everybody will se how famous I am" is not present in me. But, as you saw, I said "frequently" and not "occasionally".

The "fame" thing that you mentioned above, is quite "macro", while (about) 50% of my thoughts are for "micro" stuff. For instance: when I am saying something that is correct (that is "right") and people around (for instance my company of friends) see and admit that is correct, I get this weird feeling of cediting that I can't get rid of Like a shudder causing me boast/pride.

One of the things is to keep trying to remind yourself that YOU are the one responsible for the situations in your life, not these people.

Yes, you are right. I was suspecting this sentense in the background but it was only after I read it that I realised that this is the reason I am having this revenge thing. Because the revenge is sometimes a burst for other things that bother me (general things).

I read in a book once: Be the board. Meaning, often we view ourselves and others as players on a gameboard. But if you view yourself as the WHOLE board, in the sense that you internalize all those actions and say "i was responsible for my part in this situation, I am only mad because i let them get as far as they did or because I couldn't change them to NOT do what they did, i couldn't control them, and this situation probably isn't even the real problem anyway"...basically view yourself as the whole board, the one responsible for everything that goes on in your life.

That's a good idea, for people who try to give responsibility for everything to others (I am such a person). But the optimal is to examine each situation and see whether it was or wasn't in your control.

There are some instances where someone does something maliciously towards you, and intends it. The best thing you can do is forgive them. I still stand by forgiving them in person, or apologizing for your part in the problem

Well, if I have "hurt" them (economically, justice, etc), they may be justified to seek revenge (a real one, not the one I dream about). But if I haven't hurt them, then, thet either do it out of profit or they are crazy (easy characterization... they just might try to burst in me what someone else did to them). In this case, I can't forgive them. I can deliver justice inside my head, but not the imaginary revenge. I will say "this person was unfair with me. Poor man, he doesn't understand what is justice".

A female rabbi stated in her book that one must attempt THREE times, IN PERSON, to make contact with whom they are mad at, to make amends. If this person was just some total jerk I wouldn't bother, but if it was a family member or a friend, definitely try it.

Yes.

Through forgiveness, re-forming relationships, and taking responsiblity for your feelings and your part in the situation, taking TOTAL responsibility for how you feel no matter how bad the feeling is, not only do you gain more power and confidence but the person's importance diminishes in your mind.

Again, YES! I think that this is the reason that this achknowledgement-and-crediting thing has declined a bit: I am now starting taking SOME responsibility.

i guess to elaborate on the "famous" fantasies, that is more tricky but my personal experience and advice is this: if you have a fantasy about something like singing, acting, performing, writing, anything...try it out in real life. go to an audition no matter how small. sing on stage. sing karaoke in a bar. submit your writing to a contest. or even a publishing company! If you wallow all day in those fantasies and never try those things in reality, that is where it gets dangerous as you're using those fantasies to replace reality. But if you have the burning desire to star in a play, do the steps it takes to get there.

Well, there is a novel I am working on, but it is actually for fun, I don't know if I will ever finish it or try to publish it. I have also have a big collection of essays and I really have this itch getting them published, but then I am thinking that it's not good material. It's just that sometimes, I get this thought of what could happen if I got them published.

The "artist" (actor, musician, etc) imaginations have "hit" me too. And I am still struggling to kill it. It is very clear why I have imagined those things: those people are projected and the audience "loves" them. That is what I seeked.

I think part of dp is a warning sign that you have spent too much time dreaming about doing things and never actually doing them. and you substitute fantasy for reality until you can't tell them apart.

Yes, for some people, like me, it's this one.

I re-create an imaginary version of a real incident the way I would like it to happen (of fource the imaginary version is to my advantage and is crediting me).

I think on many levels that is normal, but be wary of if you are REFUSING to accept the reality of what has happened...

Well, here is some examples:
1. I really did behave bad when that girl approached me. I re-create the scene with me behaving correctly.
2. I should have talked to that girl, but I didn't. I re-create the scene the way I wanted it to happen.
3. When the teacher asked something, noone could answer it. I re-create the scene with me giving an exceedingly sufficient answer. And of cource, the rest of audience would admire me :| I feel so bad when I get this kind of thought.

Person3, your whole post was a "bull's eye" (good aiming)

If you're daydreaming about it, or visualizing/imagining it, then it's a strong enough part of your awareness that it something worth exploring/fixing/facing.

Absolutely agree with you Ben.

This thread could get very, very deep, potentially - but I think it all boils down to this: unfinished business.

I wish it does. It would help me enormously, and I assume that it would help other people too.

...Unfinished business that is a big point. ... said that "we may be over with the past, but the past is not over with us". I think that "unfinished business" is "the past may be over with me, but I am not over with it". And when I am thinking about it well-enought, it is sad and lonely to imagine things that happened in the past (maybe, even 10 years ago). Everybody else that you, unhesitatingly, use in your imagination, has left this scene behind, but you still stay there. Re-playing the same play, again and again, trying to find something. Maybe a piece of my lost pride and my self-confidence. Sometimes I even do it because it is sad. And this, is a whole new branch of the issue.

 

[Guest]

I love the threads that get so complicated I'm even lost MYSELF, lol..(only kidding, this is a terrific read)

Brainsilence, the "aspect" of your personality you're asking about is this: we invent fantastic and grandiose fantasies in which we are VERy powerful to cover up deep fears that underneath, we're really nothing.

The more GRAND the daily fantasies of our own victory, revenge, success, omnipotence, you can just guarantee that beneath all that "oh, I am so wonderful and powerful!" daydreaming is a person who thinks they are lower than a snail.

It's "compensatory" (the grand fantasies are COMPENSATING for real fears on the opposite end of the spectrum).

Nothing wrong at all in having fantasies of success. The key is this: for a "normal" person, having those fantasies LEADS them to do things in the world. Those fantasies are motivations to work and build something of value.

In more narcissistic fantasies (like the ones you mention and like MANY of us here have always had), the daydreams never lead anywhere.

We end up living IN our own imagination. We get "satisfaction" from the fantasy itself, not using it to spur us on towards achievement.

The point is that we discount reality - have no use for it - and live in a totally ME universe in which our own thoughts and the thinking of them becomes the playing field. We are SO afraid of the real world that we don't even take our fantasies out into it. We just stay locked up in solitary confinement, dreaming dreams of our own personal greatness, but afraid to look reality in the eye.

Peace,
Janine

 

[Brainsilence02]

The more GRAND the daily fantasies of our own victory, revenge, success, omnipotence, you can just guarantee that beneath all that "oh, I am so wonderful and powerful!" daydreaming is a person who thinks they are lower than a snail.

It sounds "inocent". I had the impression that, for me, it ment that I am a big selfist and narcisist. Wwhich I am, both a selfist and a narcisist, but I thought that those two were responsible for this one too.

Nothing wrong at all in having fantasies of success. The key is this: for a "normal" person, having those fantasies LEADS them to do things in the world. Those fantasies are motivations to work and build something of value.

I think... I am starting to either abolish or try to make reality my fantasies.

But... what happens when someone feels that something should be abolished, but, at the same time, can't take the decision to make the fantasy into reality?

For instance, I am afraid that goint into an acting audition (my favourite parts are the ones of the beggar, criminal, and soldier) the resault would be laughable. Two years ago, I starting creating parts and implementing them, but I assumed that I did that because I had a lack of experience. I, slowly, stoped that. Now, I do it once in 6 months (or maybe 1 year). Maybe I don't actually want to play a part, maybe I just want the fame, and I am chossing low-profile parts to lie to myself that fame is not my intention. A real mess :|

As for my novel/essays, I just think that they don't worth the while. Yet, there are moments that I picture myself handing over the manuscript to the publisher (under a nickname), and after that, reading the reporters say that it is a vert good novel. Then I feel that I am not a total junk. Sometimes though, I think of it with much more narcissism.

 

[Sojourner]

The only person we have to convince that we are worthwhile is ourselves.

Praise from outside will not soothe what hurts inside.

 

[Brainsilence02]

The only person we have to convince that we are worthwhile is ourselves.

Praise from outside will not soothe what hurts inside.

I am thinking that... I don't need to soothe or that I worth the while. Instead, I think that, I must try to be hard on myself. I am giving too much slack on myself. Am I wrong?

 

[Sojourner]

That's a different issue than the one I was commenting on. Now you seem to be talking about self-discipline. Only you can know if you are being too hard on yourself. I don't think that exploring how you feel about things and noticing things you don't like is being too hard on yourself.

 

[Guest]

Brainsilence, you are describing beautifully some of the core narcissistic issues here, but there is NO way to solve them on a forum, lol...these are the things that takes YEARS of therapy to even begin to address. They are also things I personally relate to 100 per cent (and it's taken me MANY MANY years to get to them in my own treatment)

One key here for you that I will address is this: your desire/efforts to be so HARD on yourself looks like it's NOT narcissism, but ironically, it's the essence of it.

It was very telling that you responded to my comment up there as "making it all very innocent.." In that post I made, I chose to use the word "Narcissisism" VERY sparingly because I could see that if I had jumped right in with "oh, this is clearly narcisissitic" you would have used that label as a weapon against yourself.

We PRETEND we're looking for insights, but sometimes we're looking for more ammunition to terrorize ourselves with.

It's like we have SPLIT our Self into two components - one that is Ideal and grand and highly judgmental. The other is weak, and human and hated. The "Grand" part of us condemns the human part constantly. It is the narcissistic ideal self condemning the real self, hating it for its weakness and its ordinary-ness.

Again, this is VERy complex stuff and it can be worked through, but I think therapy (with a VERY smart therapist) is the way to go.

Peace,
Janine