SPOOKY STUFF... psychic psycho

The problem is not that the supernatural is IMPOSSIBLE - clearly you're correct, Sebastian, there may very well be all kinds of "explanations" that are not logical according to the laws of physics as we know them.

The problem is that people don't just take oddness (or the supernatural) and say "well, well....it's quite something, true?" and then go on their merry way. The mind, and particularly the minds of obsessional types, wants answers. In attempts to UNdo the unknown, we create bizarre delusional "reasons" for the anomaly - and we really screw ourselves in terms of mental health.

Delusions are built, not as the unexplained, but from neurotic desperate efforts to NOT leave things unexplained. To counter-act the reality which is that we humans know very little, we weave tapestries of intricate and disturbing details - little Twilight Zone episodes - that answer the "Why?" to the supernatural doings we encounter.

Note too, please...nobody's delusions revolve around "well, that is so odd. Must be this explanation (and then weave a story that has NOTHING to do with them!). We always 'write' fantasy explanations that have us as the centre du universe. To counteract the unknown (and our narcissistic annihilation terrors) we end up with a delusion that revolves around US - and then we take more meds and have more sleepless nights, terrified of some future revelation that was only born from the panic of a small child who is not sure who he/she is in this world of very dangerous others.

Peace,
Janine

Sorry folks, I shouldn't have said that 'the bloke' wasn't talking to himself, but instead was chatting to evil boogeymen. I was only joking, so as to give a more spooky atmosphere to this thread. Still, it was very immature of me. :roll: I also shouldn't have said I believed the bloke must have been suffering from a mental illness.

My brother suffers from Schizophrenia. I believe the voices come from within him and that they're a part of his 'whole' self.

I know I often come across as a 'know it all', but I honestly don't mean to sound like that. I often write and say silly things without thinking. Impulsive and scatty - that's me!

However, I do still think it's possible that the bloke knew Gavin's name, simply because the name had 'entered' his mind, in the same way as it had happened with me.

'How' the names entered my mind is obviously unexplained, and I have no desire to try to analyse 'why' they did. I learnt a long time ago, that it's a waste of time and energy, trying to understand something which is beyond my comprehension.

Nowadays, if the unexplained happens, I usually think, "So what?", accept it as a bizzare part of my conscious exsistence, and carry on with life.

Sebsastian, friend, dare I comment on your post ? Because if you're going to demolish my argument using one of thoses esquisite flowing repostes of yours, then I'm not going to say anyfing, because you make me sound stupid. And I'll stomp off in a terrible huff.

Anywho;

I think it's funny how so many people are willing to disregard the notion of the "supernatural" on the sole premise that it is something that science can't, as yet, explain

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First, why is it funny ? Anyway, secondly, what we are dismissing is appeals to something that has absolutely no basis in consensual and recognised reality. We dismiss it in the same way as we do, as adults, Father Christmas. It is less-than-idle-speculation-based-on-tabloid-paranormal-cultural-wonts. Something deep inside me desperatly would love it to be Goblins or whatever, but I can't see any reason for it to be so. Never in the history of paranormal investigations has anything 'spooky' been proved to be other than selective induction (noting the hits, ignoring the misses), illusion, misunderstanding or fraud. I, however, find it funny that people have to put their hands over their mouths when they say 'science' or 'reason'. They seem to think they are dirty words - it's all Genetic Modification, Nuclear Bombs or forcing Beagles to smoke cigarettes in the name of research. Yet I doubt they'd so so ready to dismiss the laws of gravity as they were about to fall off a bridge, or submit to conventional medicine to the realm of quackery when they discover they have appendicitus.

I'm sure they would have exhaustively examined every possible verbal exchange they had

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Doubtful. Do you remember how many times you've broke wind today ? Do you remember how many times you've used the word 'purple' ? And, in the heat of the moment, I doubt if SB or Gav remember exactly what they said. I'd put my money on either of them saying something like...'Come on SB/Gavin, let's get out of his way'. Isn't that more sensible than appeals to the fairies ? Unromantic, I know, which is why it's frequently ignored. And lest we forget, our brains are hard-wired to latch onto coincidences and forget the mundane. A good example, for me, was a couple of nights ago when reading Da Quincey's ravaging of Coleridge (I'm a pompus t.w.a.t, I know. Incidently - did you know that T.W.A.T is short for The War Against Terror ? ) , when three times in a row I looked at the clock at 11 minutes past the hour. Has that got to do with something supernatural ? Spooky, yes. Unexplicable, I doubt it.

1. Anything is possible. Given infinite time, a sparrow could fly unimpeded through a 50 foot thick concrete wall

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This, to paraphrase Homeskooled, is Pop-Quantum Theory, and you are talking about two different things anyway. While Quantum theory indicates that anything 'may' be possible (at the quantum level) it doesn't mean that it 'is' possible if, and this is this is important, the universe existed for an infinate length of time (oh, hang on, you said that), but which accoring to current cosmology, it certainly won't, or has not. If this were the case, we'd see mountains spontaneously disappearing (as is 'possible') or you'd slip through the pavement (which is possible - like your Sparrow - but not because of Quantum Theory - because of the fact that atoms are mostly space, and it is only because of the (strong and weak) nuclear and magnetic forces repel each other that this doesn't happen.) But we don't see these things. We see weeping statues, 'evidence' of telepathy and black cats. So when something 'spooky' happens, the more educated (or desperate) like to attribute it to Quantum Theory. I doubt many Quantum Physicists would agree. Either that, or like everyone who's shipped out to Thailand on the sub-culture boat, it's got something to do with a strange blending of Quantum Theory and Buddhism.

Particles (electrons for example), literally "know" whether people are watching them or not and can make decisions based on this knowledge

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You're talking about the Uncertinty Principle here, yes ? If so, what you have said is a human emotive. Sub-atomic particles do not 'know' whether they we looking at them - rather, the direct act of observation (human or not) interferes with their action. So rather than thinking of them as particles or waves, we think of them as fuzzy clouds. Confuses the hell out of me, coz I'm not a not one of the three quarks for muster Mark.

But I agree with you, yet - and this is my most important point I think, while Quantum Theory is almost too incredible to believe, the consequences of this theory can be touched, seen, verified, used....televisions, silicon chips, microwaves. And that's believable enough for me.

Despite my plundering of all things mystical, I don't think I am as creatively barren as people might imagine - the souless, unmagical atheist that I am. Life, the universe and everything has enough to light a fire under the arse of my imagination.

But when there is no other explanation...look further.

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What do you mean by 'further' ? :wink: As I understand it, modern science doesn't understand how a Bee can actually fly. By studying it's anatomy and the way their wings beat it seems that's it's physically impossible. Yet they fly, the bastards. How is that possible ?

Ok just two things I wanted to say.
Firstly Sb and Gavin's experience was, to put it in a phrase, very cool. Regrdless of trying to explain it away, seeing a zombie like apparition stumbling around a deserted part of town late at night is cool. But then when this already terrifying creature seems to display some sort of supernatural powers, the experience becomes unforgetable. I reckon it will be one of those quirky memories that the two of them share forever.

Secondly, I'd probably agree with Martin, that we only have to look to nature to be awe struck. I don't see the point in trying to make reality out to be more than it is, when what it already is, is remarkable. I'm not saying that's what you guys are doing with this. But I don't like this attitude I see a great deal with the pseudo Buddhist types, who think there is something wrong with the reality we experience most of the time. Just read ALdous Huxley 'Doors of Perception', sorry to sum up a so called classic in a sarcastic sentence, but the guy could hardly articulate what was happening to him, because it was, after all, just a crazy meaningless drug trip.
Also science isn't something bespeceled old men do in laboratries deep under ground. The empirical method is essential to all of us, and we employ in everythign we do. It allows us to have the most meaningful experiences of all, anemly those with other people. The nest time you find yourself delighted to see a loved one, you are employing the scientific method. The scientific method is integrated into our biology whether we like it or not.

Martinelv said:

I think it's funny how so many people are willing to disregard the notion of the "supernatural" on the sole premise that it is something that science can't, as yet, explain

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First, why is it funny ?

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Well, i meant funny as in odd, not as in ha-ha.

Never in the history of paranormal investigations has anything 'spooky' been proved to be other than selective induction (noting the hits, ignoring the misses), illusion, misunderstanding or fraud.

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First of all, are you really such an expert in this field to make this claim, Martin? And secondly, if it were "proved", wouldn't it then move out of that field and into that of recognized science, and only then wouldn't it be subjected to "proper scientific" study? I mean, that's where this stuff comes from. It's the very definition of paranormal. Not scientifically explainable, according to Webster's dictionary. If science wasn't a malleable edifice, we'd still be buying condos at the "edge of the earth", for a place closest to the sun. Or cowering in fear of Zeus when lighting flew from the sky. And as for those kooks who preached these ideas in the first place...only then would they be lauded as visionaries.

Question: What's the difference between genius and insanity?

Answer: A few centuries.

Genetic engeneering, probing the brain to elicit predictible responses, cloning, space travel, radio waves, television waves, microwaves, atom bombs, the predictions of certain natural phenomenon. These are all things that would have been thought of as wacky, had you brought them up over some mutton and mead back in the good ol' days while sitting around the funeral pyre.

It reminds me of the story of that priest or whatever he was during that battle way back when, when he told everyone that if they didn't stop the fighting he would unleash his God-like powers at a certain time the next day. Everyone laughed at him, until he turned the sky black in mid-day, and sent everyone running back to their caves in fright. He wasn't magic. He just accurately predicted a solar eclipse.

How can we, in our scientific infancy, proclaim to know what's possible and what's impossible?

I mean, i agree...i believe in the scientific method. It's tried and true. But outside experiment lie things we simply can't test because we don't know how to test them yet. We are not the Gods we think we are.

1. Anything is possible. Given infinite time, a sparrow could fly unimpeded through a 50 foot thick concrete wall

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This, to paraphrase Homeskooled, is Pop-Quantum Theory, and you are talking about two different things anyway. While Quantum theory indicates that anything 'may' be possible (at the quantum level) it doesn't mean that it 'is' possible if, and this is this is important, the universe existed for an infinate length of time (oh, hang on, you said that), but which accoring to current cosmology, it certainly won't, or has not.

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In Quantum Theory, as it stands today, everything eventually will happen. There is no "maybe" about it. It is simply a question of probability and time. And it isn't just on the quantum level, although granted the odds are astronomically more likely that say, a photon will tunnel through a concentrated gravitational mass, as opposed to an entire living thing (the sparrow, for instance), having the unfathomably unlikely fortune of flying through a concrete wall.

In fact, there is the many-worlds theory which postulates that absolutely everything that can happen, will happen, as the infinite amount of bifurcations take reality on an endless roller-coaster ride through space. And so, temporally or spatially, all is possible in this universe...or multi-verse, or whatever the hell it's called.

Now, what this has to do with the price of bread in Mexico or, more pressingly, the whole gav/sb encounter with that man, is that in a world such as this, where anything WILL happen, we should not relegate ourselves to the position that only things we know about can happen, and everything else is phooey. Quite frankly, such ideas are pure Newtonian in their terrestrial arrogance.

If this were the case, we'd see mountains spontaneously disappearing (as is 'possible') or you'd slip through the pavement (which is possible

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Dammit Martin, quit thinking like a human! If you close your eyes do you know for certain that the world still exists? Where does the world go when you sleep? Prove to me that it still exists when you're off in La La Land, having anal sex with 800 lbs. gorillas or whatever it is you do in your dreams. One has to think outside of the box.

For example, if you did "slip through the pavement", where do you think you'd go? You certainly wouldn't be on here typing about it, and so by de facto logic, we can clearly say that none of us has slipped through pavement. But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened. People go missing all the time. Maybe this is what the problem is. Maybe there's a mass of people slipping through the pavement and we should inform some sort of international body about it. Perhaps that's why there's always a single shoe laying by the side of the road. It's always seemed absurd to me that people would constantly be chucking shoes out the window while driving. And why only one? What good is the other shoe going to do if the other one is laying at the side of the road? Unless you're totally unconcerned with how silly you'll look having two different shoes that don't even match. But i'd imagine the proportion of people who would be unconcerned with such fashion faux pas would be drastically lower than the amount of shoes i've seen by the side of the road. And so, maybe they are slipping through the pavement.

Particles (electrons for example), literally "know" whether people are watching them or not and can make decisions based on this knowledge

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You're talking about the Uncertinty Principle here, yes ? If so, what you have said is a human emotive. Sub-atomic particles do not 'know' whether they we looking at them - rather, the direct act of observation (human or not) interferes with their action.

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You are mistaken, my dear Martin. Sub-atomic particles DO know whether we are looking at them. Or at least they exhibit the same tendencies that a cognizant entity would exhibit. I'm not speaking about the Uncertainty relation. That restricts our ability to measure both momentum and position, and you're right in the sense that this hinders our ability to accurately monitor these things, as they are fundamentally unreconcilable given their sub-Planck like length. However, tests can and have been conducted on electrons which infers their actions from various experiments, and time and time again, it shows that the wave function collapses once the "world at large" knows about their decisions.

To put this more clearly, this means that sub-atomic particles act as though they are waves until they are measured, and then they become particles. This is really a mind-boggling revelation, in that it shows how tenuous our reality really is. In fact, i find it oddly comforting to know that the cold, bleak world that some people try to paint, is actually bubbling with mystery, and we are simply unable to comprehend it because the harder we look, the murkier the water becomes. I also find the fact that ANYTHING is possible quite comforting as i've always found eternity a rather unsettling idea. The idea of something lasting forever. But if time is no object...if we were to die and become energy trapped in a black swirling mass of gravity...trapped in a neutron star...trapped even by the weight of the universe itself...there is still an absolute certainty that one day, somewhere, somehow, we will free ourselves.

Anyway, i'm getting enormously off-topic. If anyone is interested in all this, i'd highly recommend John Gribben's Search of Schrodinger's Cat for reading or downloading Richard Feynman's UCLA lectures on quantum theory. That particular book by Gribben is written for the layman so it's quite lucid and easy to follow. The Feynman lectures are entertaining but a little more in depth. Also, the University of Colorado has a great physics web site, and actually lets you do experiments online through flash or java or whatever the hell utility they use.

Now, just to clarify things. I'm not saying that this whole incident most certainly did happen through some sort of cosmic quackery. I'm just saying that we never really know. Anything is possible. And i'm also aware of the extreme unlikelihood of all the examples i mentioned above, and that all things being equal, a Newtonian universe is precisely the kind we live in day-to-day, and for all intents and purpose, Relativity, Quantum Physics, and the multi-dimensions of String Theory, are all things i don't have to worry a whole lot about. I realize that 99 times out of a hundred, at the very least[/], a person will be delusional rather than prophetic...lucky, rather than destined...crazy rather than genius. But we shouldn't be too hasty. There's much more to this world than meets the eye.

s.

What Janine just said is so true.
However I would like to add one more point to this whole quantum discussion, even though it has nothing to do with telepathic zombies. Physicists tend to hope that the universe is finite. What they hope is that the universe is finite, and will come to an end one day. Effectively what this means is that one day we will have the 'big crunch', which is kinda' the opposite of the big bang. After the big crunch the universe will begin again, and we will all repeat our lives again, and again, infinitely. I just thought that was quite interesting, even though it may not necessarily turn out to be the case.
However, I must say, quantum theory no longer interests me. I think if there were intelligent life forms that lived at the quantum level, and were used to quantum mechanics, particles acting like waves, uncertainty over the position and velocity of a particle etc. I think that if these beings existed and knew about our macroscopic level, that obeyed the laws of Newtonian mechanics, then they would be very envious of us. I know that sounds silly, but what I mean is that when one realises that things don't have to be a certain way, that indeed quantum sized particles can randomly appear out of nothing and so on, then one finds the whole thing to be rather uninteresting. It is in our macroscpoic world that the really fascinating things occur.
Lastly, I read all of those popular science books, did the first year of a degree in physics and I eventually discovered that whatever these scientific crack pots were on about it held little significance for me as a mortal, and I'd be better off doing a degree I was actually interested in.
Mathematics, science, logic these are only ways of decribing reality in a way that is meaningful, however reality will always be the same.

Sebastian, you could at least make a spelling mistake, or a tiny little grammatical error. Is that asking too much ?

First of all, are you really such an expert in this field to make this claim, Martin?

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I don't have to be an expert, because I'm not the person making the claim. As far as I know, and as far as I'm sure that there is no invisible leprechaun under my bed, no paranormal phenomena has every stood up to scrutiny. Ever. Of course, I expect that's because, as I hear on a regular basis, that paranormal phenomena doesn't 'work' in a strictly controlled environment. Yawn. Even Homeskooled, in our debate regarding clairvoyance, has rationally explained seemingly miraculous events as mere illusion.

And secondly, if it were "proved", wouldn't it then move out of that field and into that of recognized science

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Yes, it would. Well, at least it would be moved from the 'paranormal' arena to the 'supernatural' one.

Genetic engeneering, probing the brain to elicit predictible responses, cloning, space travel, radio waves, television waves, microwaves, atom bombs, the predictions of certain natural phenomenon. These are all things that would have been thought of as wacky, had you brought them up over some mutton and mead back in the good ol' days while sitting around the funeral pyre.

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I entirely agree. I know what you're saying...keep an open mind...the paranormal, because of the 'weirdness' of Quantum Theory, may have some basis in reality. Sure. Maybe. But isn't it curious that paranormal claims are almost exclusively based on very human hopes, fears, desires. Spirits, aliens, god/s, clairvoyance, astrology, telepathy, numerology..As the saintly Richard Dawkins suggest...'sure, keep an open mind, but not such an open mind that our brains fall out'. I'm going to have that quote on my gravestone...unless I die in an manner where my skull is torn open and my brains do actually fall out. I'm not that insensitive, although it would be a final and delicious act of irony on my part.

In Quantum Theory, as it stands today, everything eventually will happen

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I'm not sure that's quite true, even supposing that the universe will exist for an infinite period of time. My understanding is that the Copenhagen interpretation of uncertainty does not entirely do away with certain deterministic rules. Again - I say, it may be possible for anything to happen, but as you say, isn't it stupendously more likely that this 'possibility' will manifest itself in a 'charmed' quark turning into a 'strange' quark, rather than the sparrow flying through a brick wall ? At least in the lifetime of our universe.

In my own strange way, I have been equally culpable of twisting what little I know of Quantum Theory to suit my own emotional needs. When my close friend died, last year, of Leukaemia, I pondered over the 'all possible worlds' idea so loved by Star Trek and science fiction fans, to suppose that given enough people, and given enough time, me and him would meet again. A sort of quantum-reincarnation if you like. I know, and did at the time, that it's poppy-cock, but I stand guilty as charged.

Dammit Martin, quit thinking like a human! If you close your eyes do you know for certain that the world still exists?

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If a bear shits in the woods and nobody is there to tread in it, is the pope catholic ? No, I cannot be certain that when I close my eyes that the world ceases to exist, but until the day that happens, I won't worry about it and continue to live in the consensual reality that we all live in. What point are you trying to make ?

this means that sub-atomic particles act as though they are waves until they are measured, and then they become particles. This is really a mind-boggling revelation

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Yes, the wave/particle duality certainly is a puzzle - to put it mildly. But again, as I understand it, it is more of an aspect of quantum theory than reality - or rather the inability of anything (ie. us and our paricle accelerators) to measure them with any certainty. But yet - it's still only a puzzle..a very young puzzle...and who's to say they won't figure it out ?