[enngirl5]

I'm writing a speech for school and wanted everyones yes, no or neutral on whether gay men and women should be allowed to marry? I wanted to do an anonymous poll but didn't know if this belonged in the poll section. So yes, no, neutral?

 

[dakotajo]

I have no problem with gays marrying. To each their own. I just dont believe that a gay couple should be allowed to raise kids. Theres enough in the world already to confuse kids without putting them thru that.

 

[enigma]

I say yes.

As someone said recently (I forget who): "They have a right to be just as miserable as the rest of us."

Also, I've never heard of there being any ill effects on children being raised by gay couples.

e

 

[gimpy34]

No, no marriage. Civil unions are fine by me. I think, historically, marriage just has religious connotations. Basically, what I'm saying is yes, it just needs to go by a different name.

 

[person3]

yes

 

[person3]

and a lot of the "no" reasons, TO ME, seem to boil down to people being uncomfortable with homosexuality. ie, citing history and tradition (hey, women were historically and traditionally repressed, blacks were historically and traditionally denied civil rights, jews were historically and traditionally shot and killed), citing family values (what values?), citing religion and sanctity of the church (well whose church and why, and if god said it then why do humans yell it with such fervor?), etc. There is nothing based on factual evidence, there is nothing totally unbiased, there is no proof of gays being morally unacceptable (and the bible is only proof if you choose to accept other things in it like slavery)...basically if someone gets in a heated emotional state as to why this is so WRONG perhaps we need to examine the arguer. But that's just my opinion.

Also, with all the gay discrimination, no one wants to admit their own sexual ambivalence, so they smack down harder on gays. This doesn't happen with other kinds of discrimination as much (such as you can't fake your skin color as easily, but you can tell yourself up and down that you're only attracted to the opposite gender)...i guess because homosexuality is ambivalent, sexual, and deeply personal.

I think if gay marraige was made legal eventually it would be so okay in society to be gay that the issue of children in a gay marriage would be nil. It would just be another aspect of society, like women voting or blacks being allowed to exist (things that were found obscene at one time).

 

[enngirl5]

You're right person. I read that mixed marriages were not allowed in all states until 1967 which is crazy. Also, all regions in the US didn't allow blacks to marry until after the Civil War. Does anyone have any info on these statistics? I've checked them many times but it seems so crazy. 1967!?

 

[ret]

No. It's fucking stupid.

 

[Guest]

Yes (and I also love that quote "sure, let them be as miserable as the rest of us" lol)

And to me the travesty in refusing to allow gay couples to form a marriage is that this country is founded on a right of separation between church and state. To say "no, they cannot marry because homosexuality is wrong in the eyes of "x" religion" is to deny couples a santicty right by this country by using a SINGLE specific religion as a basis for "right" or "wrong"

If a particular religious group succeeds in condeming or inhibiting people based on that religion's own unique set of values, we all run the risk of being ruled by someone ELSE's religion in the name of government. People are entitled to their religious beliefs, but they are not entitled to use laws to prohibit other citizens from engaging in a lifestyle that is not conforming to those beliefs.

If marriage becomes synomous with religion, why not prevent atheists from marrying, or non-declared religious persons?

That said, I would be STUNNED if we see gay marriage openly functioning in this country in our own lifetime. The religious Right is powerful. Very powerful.

 

[Axel19]

Obviously it's logically impossible, or should be, for gay people to get married in the church. I said it in another post but the bible, as a sort of rule book that can not be changed, states that marriage is between a man and a woman. So gay people obviously can not get married in the Christian church ever, otherwise it just wont' be Christian marriage.
However I think gay people should be allowed to get a legal marriage, why not?
There are clearly a lot of difficulties surrounding gay couples having children. I can't be bothered to think about the issue either. However I think it could be argued that a child needs both feminine and masculine influence, from a female mother and a male father. Basically I think that children raised by gay couples might turn out to be very different from other children.

 

[enigma]

Obviously it's logically impossible, or should be, for gay people to get married in the church. I said it in another post

Refer to 'enigma' post after second 'Axel19' post in 'John Paul II' theard', p.1.

but the bible, as a sort of rule book that can not be changed, states that marriage is between a man and a woman. So gay people obviously can not get married in the Christian church ever, otherwise it just wont' be Christian marriage.

Refer to second 'Person3' post, this thread, paragraph 1, lines 5-6.

However I think gay people should be allowed to get a legal marriage, why not?

Indeed. But if they're religious, why should their own church treat them as second class?

There are clearly a lot of difficulties surrounding gay couples having children. I can't be bothered to think about the issue either. However I think it could be argued that a child needs both feminine and masculine influence, from a female mother and a male father. Basically I think that children raised by gay couples might turn out to be very different from other children.

Pure conjecture.

e

 

[Axel19]

Pure conjecture.

It's not pure conjecture. It seems obvious that a child raised by same sex parents might turn out different to a child raised by different sex parents. It's simple nature/nurture. I'm not saying they'd turn out to be freaks or anything, just that the likelihood is that there would be differences, which may turn out to be insignificant.

Secondly, the gay people I know of in the church, who treat ther faith seriously all try to remain celibate. Christianity is based on the bible.
Person 3 said that the bible says slavery is ok. I don't know where that was said, but ti certainly wasn't said in the new testament. Christianity is based on the new testament, the teachings of Christ hence the title 'Christ'ianity. Jesus did say that marriage was between one man and one woman.
Should somone erase the words in the bible that say (paraphrased) 'marriage is between one man and one woman'?
To censor the words of the supposed son of God, because they don't agree with your way of life, would be to discard the entire religion itself. Therefore gay marriage within the church will never be possible.

I'm not saying that the bible/Christianity is neccessarily right in refusing gay marriage. Rather that gay people wanting to get married in the Christian church seem to have very much missed the point of Christianity. That's not to say that a gay person can't be a Christian.
The Christian religion prohibits gay marriage within its church, and this is said to be the word of God. Again, I'm not saying that this is right.

Gay people wanting to get married in the church makes about as much sense as me asking for my pornography stash to be blessed by the parish priest. Once again I'm not saying that gay marriage is wrong. But the reality of the situation is that Christianity considers gay relations to be a sin.
Any right minded gay person would either say that the bible isn't the absolute moral maxim that people think it is, even though it may have some truth in it.
Or if they were desperate to be a proper Christian, for whatever reason, they would try to avoid gay relations, and ask for forgiveness.
For the last time, I personally don't think that homosexuality is a sin, I think it's perfectly acceptable. Nor am I a practising Christian.
I just wanted to clarify, for the purposes of casual forum discussion, that gay marriage within the church is impossible.

Sorry if this post sounded condescending towards gay people in any way, with me constantly saying 'gay people can't get married in the church' as if teasing. I just like to deal with what is lucidly logical.

Furthermore, thusfar I think we have been very impersonal in our posts. Following recent arguments, let's try and keep it that way.

 

[enigma]

makes about as much sense as me asking for my pornography stash to be blessed by the parish priest.

Mine was! (That's an interesting comparison, btw.)

e

 

[dreamcatcher]

i'd say yes.......i believe any two people that want to commit to each other should be allow to marry

 

[gimpy34]

Really, I don't know understand what the rush for gays to get married is all about. The most genuine motive I see behind it is for the purpose of creating a family. Because people want the joy of kids but you don't want your kids being raised multiple d*ckweeds and because it is best for kids to be in a stable environment. When you don't have that ability, marriage loses a lot of that purpose. Historically, there are a lot of religious connotations associated with marriage but I don't think most people even think about that anymore-- until they think about kids and how it is wrong to have children out of wedlock. Marriage is really only a formality now. If society hadn't made it a convention, everyone wouldn't be so gung-ho about marriage.

There are a lot of selfish motives behind marriage. Because you can't stand seeing your partner with someone else, money, etc. I think rarely it's because you love someone with all your heart and soul and you want the best for them. I might be wrong, though. Marriage has become the only sure way to legally "lock-in" on your partner. The quickest way to break-up with your significant other is to say you don't want to get married.

I'm actually all for marriage, I'm just raising some questions for you Enigma.

 

[Dreamer]

I agree there should be civil unions. Heterosexuals not affiliated with a church have civil unions.

Civil unions and marriages protect both parties. One important thing is the right to be involved in the partner's health care decisions, i.e. even visiting in the hospital, making health care decisions for children, etc. There are tax benefits. All of the privileges that hetero couples have. Owning a house together, the benefits of Wills, etc. I don't know all the details. Health coverage, etc.

Also, I believe in gays raising kids. There are hetero couples who have GAY children. I fully believe that in 90%+ of cases that homosexuality is hard-wired. Purely Nature. If a hetero couple can give birth to and raise a gay child, and gay parents can raise straight kids, well ....

Bottom line I believe that one is born homosexual.

And how many hetero marriages have been ruined by a gay spouse (frequently men who get so much greif for being gay), afraid to "come out of the closet", who announces this after there have been children, years of marriage? It hurts everyone involved including the gay spouse. I personally know two friends this happened to.

Also, what is the divorce rate for hetero couples? I know more gay monogamous couples that have lasted a lifetime.

There are many promiscuous, irresponsible heteros, and the same to be said for gay folks.

Someone else said and this is in agreement: "I, Dreamer, would have rather been raised in a loving gay family than the wealthy, hetero nightmare of a family I was raised in. NO LIE."

I have a gay half-brother who is in his 70s. He was born in 1932, my mother's child. He was put up for adoption and taken into a hetero family he loved very much. He and his partner have been together for 45 years. Oddly enough he and I, though we NEVER met until 1990, are musical, interested in theatre, went into creative careers, went to the same University... all of these things are common with my MOTHER.

Also, he has some of my mother's funny joke patterns. She used to say, "Hey go get the panshoo to wash my hair." My half-brother, raised by a hetero couple is very much like me and my mother, save I'm straight and he's gay. I also have problems with my marriage, he doesn't.

We don't keep in touch as he is a racist, LOL! He lives with his partner in a white bread upper class neighborhood in Orange County, California.

OK, enuf, I have 20 things to do today.

Oh, the church, yes, why have a religious union when a civil union has the same result. Again, if the church/synagogue is against this, why a "marriage" vs. a civil union. My only prob with this.

I've seen more kids messed up by hetero couples than I care to discuss, including myself.

All one needs is a loving family, no neglect, no abuse, guidance, support, etc., etc., etc.

D

 

[Guest]

I have no problem with gays or even gays getting married, but there is absolutely no way in hell they should be able to raise a kid. I look at the kid first, you should always look at the kid first. Growing up is hard enough for every kid and throw in the fact that he/she has homosexual parents and it's going to be ten times harder. The torment he or she would experience at school would be enough to tramautize that child for life.

I caught hell in school for having hairy arms, can you imagine how much flak this child would catch for having homosexual parents!! Kids are not accepting or understanding creatures. Kids can be nasty because alot of the time they don't know any better. You could always homeschool the child, but that would be robbing them of an experience they deserve.

You may downplay this and say, "well you are only in school for so long." That is very true, but your experience in school influences your future big time. I was teased in school and it has an effect on me til this very day. As much as a homosexual couple may want a child, the world is way too cruel to suit such a thing. Sad but very true.

 

[Guest]

I have computer (posting) trouble, but carefully trying if this posts.
I am saying 'yes' to enngirls poll. Wont further participate in this topic (in which some VERY good posts were made by among others Person3, Janine, Enigma, Dreamer).
Here's my contribution:

I think this is the core of what this topic is about.

 

[gimpy34]

I mean, look at the show My Two Dads. It only lasted what, 2 seasons?

 

[Dreamer]

I mean, look at the show My Two Dads. It only lasted what, 2 seasons?

LOL.

Ah, there was a discussion about this before, and I recall adding another point. Adoption. There are MANY, MANY children who have NO families. Hetero families often adopt children from other countries. There are many children in the US who are languishing in foster homes or worse, being subjected to abuse. Some are ill, some have AIDS.

Many gay couples want to adopt. These children can and do benefit from a family, regardless if it is made up of 2 men or two women. It all depends on the quality of the family.

I saw a documentary some years back of a gay couple. A male nurse, and a guy who was a businessman. They had been together for years. The male nurse worked in a pediatric AIDS ward. He brought one baby home as no one wanted him. Then another. I think in all these two men took in 5 kids with various disabilities or who weren't wanted. The doctors there were thrilled!

They raised these kids (ah, here's an interesting point too, some of the kids were black, the men were caucasion -- there's another hornet's nest .. and there were girls and boys) .... well they did a beautiful job. I think they had the kids for 10 years or more. One kid was a teen ready for college. The nurse worked, the businessman became a house husband... forget which.

At any rate, they were able to provide superior health care for these children with AIDS or HIV. Superior schooling, and most important a loving family. As gimpy says, a CIVIL UNION makes having a family more "legitimate." Also, in theory it is easier to get married than it is to get divorced. You want to think ahead before you dive in. There has to be committment there.

I think this was a legal case in Florida. At any rate, the law in Florida prohibits adoptions of AIDS babies by anyone other than a hetero married couple. I think I have this all wrong, but this is sort of the scenario. So these children, who had been raised by the same loving parents for 10 years were going to be removed from the home.

The entire group was devastated. The children didn't "become gay" and one young boy had been AIDS free though HIV positive because of the care he received.

They fought this in the Fla. courts to no avail, and the documentary ended with their all moving to Oregon. At the time the legal wrangling continued. Fortunately the older children became adults, but there was a constant threat that the younger kids would be taken away from the only loving home they knew. This was on PBS -- Frontline. Does anyone recall?

Another reason I am very pro kids being raised by gays if the family is a good one. There are so many unwanted children, abused in foster care, moving from unstable home to unstable home.

I'd rather be adopted by a loving gay couple.

And hey, kids get ribbed in school for everything.

In my private school, several kids had no televisions in the house. Some parents today would say, "How do the kids tolerate not having a television, and how can they explain this to their friends." For kids, this isn't always an issue, and if it is, it's up to any good parent to deal with this.

Good parenting is the key. It has been done by gays and heteros and it has been botched by both.

Would you rather be abandoned or loved? That's what matters.

D