[coolwhip27]

I know this post might be confusing but it’s the best I can do. Feel free to question and critique
Everyone here with chronic DP aka the ones that continuously suffer can’t seem to find an answer. Since the answer obviously means no DP then its just a fact that DP is ongoing, so it’s seen as an unsolved problem. While it’s attempted to go over the problem in order to discover something, the problem also may be in action (while we’re doing that). Take a look for a second. What is the state of a mind that isn’t concluding anything about anything? It’s not occupied by anything then. Pretend like we just met a house party and we’re talking for the first time. What do you really have to say to me? Just whatever thoughts you’ve gathered from this paragraph, as boggling, confusing or empty as it may sound?

I think we should be discussing this. Can we live life without certainty? I mean that very deeply, not just expressed in words. When you go with certainty you’re always lead into uncertainty. Because youll always find what proves you wrong, aswell as certainty being resistance. If you’re certain about something then you can’t change your mind about it correct? So there’s resistance with having that conclusion.

When the mind is questioning and not answering there is clarity. No, I dont think I’m a hypocrite. It’s inward certainty I’m talking about, creating predetermined thoughts. Writing statements is not what I mean by certainty

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

I theorize that my dissociation is not a problem with thought content but a situation with the actual mechanics or structure of mind. I actually can go further than that and say I'm confident my dissociation is better termed as a dislocation. I believe that Consciousness is to Mind as Bone is to Body. And just as one can dislocate a joint of bones, so too one can dislocate consciousness itself, (possibly from the Chakra/Glandular system). Three things arise here with that conclusion. 1) Almost nobody alive today can recognize this sub-physical dislocation, and so it's metaphorically as though life is a marathon race, but my legs have dislocation and yet nobody can see that, so I appear "challenged" at best. 2) Research in Consciousness at this current day and age is currently stuck at "The Hard Problem", and that is to say, Scientists don't even know if Consciousness is real or not real. 3) Assuming Consciousness is Real, and all prior statements of mine are correct or close to correct, how does one trail blaze into conquering a problem with a vitally central aspect of the mind? It's like having a broken hand and then attempting to operate surgery to fix that hand WITH that hand all the while never have been taught how to be a surgeon.

 

[coolwhip27]

I theorize that my dissociation is not a problem with thought content but a situation with the actual mechanics or structure of mind. I actually can go further than that and say I'm confident my dissociation is better termed as a dislocation. I believe that Consciousness is to Mind as Bone is to Body. And just as one can dislocate a joint of bones, so too one can dislocate consciousness itself, (possibly from the Chakra/Glandular system). Three things arise here with that conclusion. 1) Almost nobody alive today can recognize this sub-physical dislocation, and so it's metaphorically as though life is a marathon race, but my legs have dislocation and yet nobody can see that, so I appear "challenged" at best. 2) Research in Consciousness at this current day and age is currently stuck at "The Hard Problem", and that is to say, Scientists don't even know if Consciousness is real or not real. 3) Assuming Consciousness is Real, and all prior statements of mine are correct or close to correct, how does one trail blaze into conquering a problem with a vitally central aspect of the mind? It's like having a broken hand and then attempting to operate surgery to fix that hand WITH that hand all the while never have been taught how to be a surgeon.

I respect it, but I’m going to venture and try say the mind actually being mechanical is an illusion. It can be mechanical but only as a result of its own processing. For example, what makes it mechanical? You? The mind? So it being perceived as mechanical makes it especially mechanical, but im saying it’s possible to drop it all. Now your mind has rules it’s set itself by thinking about itself. A fixated process. The mind is (you) contemplating it’s mechanics. So really it’s an illusion to think about. In a very literal sense of reality, isn’t it just more bullshit to see through? And if there’s not all these processes going on dependent on other processes, then what is there? It’s possible for a person to go through life without realizing they’re always occupied by something or other, meaning they’ll never discover what it’s like to not be wasting energy. Output/effort is energy

 

[NoDevils]

Skepticism is the primary product of my depersonalization. I have questions about my sanity, my health, the universe, etc. It's not that I'm a perfect skeptic now, because that's impossible. Depersonalization in my experience shocks a person's mentality and makes them question everything.

In computer science there's this thing called user illusion. You look at a your phone screen and see an icon. It's not really an icon but a bunch of pixels in the shape of an icon. A pixel isn't a single unit rather it's a collection of red, blue, and green lights. You click on the icon and drag it with your thumb. You're not actually dragging it, rather the touch sensor is detecting your thumb and the software is simulating the icon being dragged. Reality is a similar user illusion, only created by the brain instead of a computer. In this sense there might be two meanings of the word "reality," the first being that which your brain perceives and the second being that which really exists.

 

[coolwhip27]

Skepticism is the primary product of my depersonalization. I have questions about my sanity, my health, the universe, etc. It's not that I'm a perfect skeptic now, because that's impossible. Depersonalization in my experience shocks a person's mentality and makes them question everything.

In computer science there's this thing called user illusion. You look at a your phone screen and see an icon. It's not really an icon but a bunch of pixels in the shape of an icon. A pixel isn't a single unit rather it's a collection of red, blue, and green lights. You click on the icon and drag it with your thumb. You're not actually dragging it, rather the touch sensor is detecting your thumb and the software is simulating the icon being dragged. Reality is a similar user illusion, only created by the brain instead of a computer.

Why is it similar? The brain creates illusions but I don’t see the use in thinking of illusions as coming from a genetical/inherent lack of certain perception. What we know causes pain is the illusions we create, not what our brain existing in reality does. So if the mind knows itself it has no illusions. I question there being any truth in thinking of ordinary reality as an illusion. Even if it is, the whole idea itself revolves around how we ourselves can’t know, so it’s just unknown territory either way.

 

[NoDevils]

Why is it similar? The brain creates illusions but I don’t see the use in thinking of illusions as coming from a genetical/inherent lack of certain perception. What we know causes pain is the illusions we create, not what our brain existing in reality does. So if the mind knows itself it has no illusions. I question there being any truth in thinking of ordinary reality as an illusion. Even if it is, the whole idea itself revolves around how we ourselves can’t know, so it’s just unknown territory either way.

Delusion usually comes from having excessive certainty or excessive suspicion about something. I'm using the term delusion in a modern sense of the word. Things that are societally agreed upon like certain religious or scientific truths are usually exempt from the term.

It's true that reality is like a user illusion. Using a cellphone is a microcosm of our relationship to reality. The illusions you experience with the cellphone are the same as those you experience with your loved ones and so forth, although those experiences have more emotional character. For an example of user illusion in the real world, we view solid materials as entirely dense when in fact they're mostly made of empty space between molecules.

Physical and emotional pain can definitely be inflicted by outside stimuli, though the "circuitry" for pain is located inside our body. When that circuitry doesn't register physical pain that's a life threatening condition. A person not being able to experience emotional pain is unheard of.

 

[coolwhip27]

Delusion usually comes from having excessive certainty or excessive suspicion about something. I'm using the term delusion in a modern sense of the word. Things that are societally agreed upon like certain religious or scientific truths are usually exempt from the term.

It's true that reality is like a user illusion. Using a cellphone is a microcosm of our relationship to reality. The illusions you experience with the cellphone are the same as those you experience with your loved ones and so forth, although those experiences have more emotional character. For an example of user illusion in the real world, we view solid materials as entirely dense when in fact they're mostly made of empty space between molecules.

Physical and emotional pain can definitely be inflicted by outside stimuli, though the "circuitry" for pain is located inside our body. When that circuitry doesn't register physical pain that's a life threatening condition. A person not being able to experience emotional pain is unheard of.

Of course it can. But I question whether illusion itself can be afflicted from reality. Reality is what isn’t an illusion. That’s even contained within the definition of the word, reality. Our interpretation of it is a different story. But the user illusions are put on us by us, not by anything else. So therefore I look inward. But, one point might be to question if mind and reality are separable. On what level is consciousness different from everything else?

 

[NoDevils]

I theorize that my dissociation is not a problem with thought content but a situation with the actual mechanics or structure of mind. I actually can go further than that and say I'm confident my dissociation is better termed as a dislocation. I believe that Consciousness is to Mind as Bone is to Body. And just as one can dislocate a joint of bones, so too one can dislocate consciousness itself, (possibly from the Chakra/Glandular system). Three things arise here with that conclusion. 1) Almost nobody alive today can recognize this sub-physical dislocation, and so it's metaphorically as though life is a marathon race, but my legs have dislocation and yet nobody can see that, so I appear "challenged" at best. 2) Research in Consciousness at this current day and age is currently stuck at "The Hard Problem", and that is to say, Scientists don't even know if Consciousness is real or not real. 3) Assuming Consciousness is Real, and all prior statements of mine are correct or close to correct, how does one trail blaze into conquering a problem with a vitally central aspect of the mind? It's like having a broken hand and then attempting to operate surgery to fix that hand WITH that hand all the while never have been taught how to be a surgeon.

Your choice of words is interesting and I think "dislocated" could be useful. When you say "glandular" it reminds me of endogenous and when you say "sub-physical" it reminds me of functional. I think any modern scientist would have to agree with you that consciousness and depersonalization aren't well understood.

Of course I'm no neuroscientist and I'm sure a lot of what neuroscientists do is in or on the verge of quackery but they seem to be very interested in the activity of brain regions. Sometimes they think disorders are a product of not enough activity in one area or too much activity in another. I think this is why your "dislocation" sounds logical to me.

Learning what consciousness is, or if it even exists, would satisfy many questions in neuroscience. There are people who lost pieces of their brain that were supposed to be responsible for consciousness and yet they exhibited awareness that was normal apart from memory impairment. Maybe consciousness and brain function are merely processes and that's why we struggle to locate them. Maybe the "brain is a computer" metaphor reaches its end because computers do their processing in regions (CPU, GPU, RAM, etc.) whereas the brain is a biological "computer" and functions much differently.

 

[NoDevils]

Of course it can. But I question whether illusion itself can be afflicted from reality. Reality is what isn’t an illusion. That’s even contained within the definition of the word, reality. Our interpretation of it is a different story. But the user illusions are put on us by us, not by anything else. So therefore I look inward. But, one point might be to question if mind and reality are separable. On what level is consciousness different from everything else?

Yeah. I talked about the two types of "reality." "Inner reality" can refer to our experiences and "outer reality" is allegedly composed of molecules, electromagnetism, and gravity. The truth is we don't know if outside reality exists or how to characterize our brains' interaction with outside reality. I think that falls under the category of metaphysics and it's very trippy stuff. Personally I leave it alone because I'm a skeptic and would probably go insane thinking about such things. John Nash thought metaphysics was a step towards going insane.

"I've always believed in numbers and the equations and logics that lead to reason. But after a lifetime of such pursuits, I ask, 'What truly is logic? Who decides reason?'

My quest has taken me through the physical, the metaphysical, the delusional -- and back.

And I have made the most important discovery of my career, the most important discovery of my life: It is only in the mysterious equations of love that any logic or reasons can be found."

I hope this is from the real man and not just A Beautiful Mind but it's a pretty good quote either way.

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

I respect it, but I’m going to venture and try say the mind actually being mechanical is an illusion. It can be mechanical but only as a result of its own processing. For example, what makes it mechanical? You? The mind? So it being perceived as mechanical makes it especially mechanical, but im saying it’s possible to drop it all. Now your mind has rules it’s set itself by thinking about itself. A fixated process. The mind is (you) contemplating it’s mechanics. So really it’s an illusion to think about. In a very literal sense of reality, isn’t it just more bullshit to see through? And if there’s not all these processes going on dependent on other processes, then what is there? It’s possible for a person to go through life without realizing they’re always occupied by something or other, meaning they’ll never discover what it’s like to not be wasting energy. Output/effort is energy

I think you're over analyzing the word 'mechanical'. Let's throw that word out of my post. And focus on the theory of "Consciousness is to Mind as Bone is to Body". So many spiritual people and gurus have set 'Consciousness' up as being something mysterious and hard to grasp the nature of, because of it supposedly being this big secret that can only be pointed to through allegory and special "Spiritual Terminology". In contrast, in my humble opinion, Consciousness is something that Science can potentially 1) Detect 2) Study and 3) Manipulate. And by Manipulate I mean simply the same as if your Shoulder was to Dislocate, then it could be pulled back into its socket.

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

Your choice of words is interesting and I think "dislocated" could be useful. When you say "glandular" it reminds me of endogenous and when you say "sub-physical" it reminds me of functional. I think any modern scientist would have to agree with you that consciousness and depersonalization aren't well understood.

Of course I'm no neuroscientist and I'm sure a lot of what neuroscientists do is in or on the verge of quackery but they seem to be very interested in the activity of brain regions. Sometimes they think disorders are a product of not enough activity in one area or too much activity in another. I think this is why your "dislocation" sounds logical to me.

Learning what consciousness is, or if it even exists, would satisfy many questions in neuroscience. There are people who lost pieces of their brain that were supposed to be responsible for consciousness and yet they exhibited awareness that was normal apart from memory impairment. Maybe consciousness and brain function are merely processes and that's why we struggle to locate them. Maybe the "brain is a computer" metaphor reaches its end because computers do their processing in regions (CPU, GPU, RAM, etc.) whereas the brain is a biological "computer" and functions much differently.

I tend to see Depersonalization/Derealization as a very broad spectrum. The common factor in dissociation seems to be that the Protective Fight or Flight mode of Instinct is either "stuck" on or antagonized through repeated Panic Attacks or something similar. There's certain symptoms that tend to be prevalent with the Fight or Flight response. Some people have this dissociation state as stemming from trauma, (and trauma can be from so many different life events as well). Some have dissociation from drug induced experiences, most commonly marijuana.

The second time I smoked weed, I had weed induced DP/DR for 15 minutes. Thanks to a friend I was able to relax, lay down, close my eyes and it passed. Then I smoked weekly for 2 years before I had the breakdown, that I'm just now getting over 19.5 years later. It's different but still can be talked about using the same terminology. That's the thing too, words are so limited, especially with feelings of unreality. For 10 years I spoke almost daily with another sufferer of dissociation. We finally concluded that even though we were both using the same words, we actually are like polar opposites in our disorders.

 

[coolwhip27]

I think you're over analyzing the word 'mechanical'. Let's throw that word out of my post. And focus on the theory of "Consciousness is to Mind as Bone is to Body". So many spiritual people and gurus have set 'Consciousness' up as being something mysterious and hard to grasp the nature of, because of it supposedly being this big secret that can only be pointed to through allegory and special "Spiritual Terminology". In contrast, in my humble opinion, Consciousness is something that Science can potentially 1) Detect 2) Study and 3) Manipulate. And by Manipulate I mean simply the same as if your Shoulder was to Dislocate, then it could be pulled back into its socket.

Well, the word means what it means. Science itself won’t ever manipulate consciousness. What will do the manipulation is the consciousness itself, which does not come through theories, study, or any kind of knowledge that the consciousness itself chooses to hold onto. Consciousness becoming aware of ITSELF is what it is, not through any scientific model which is just something our consciousness has put together

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

Well I disagree. You seem certain about your position. I on the other hand have theories open to being proven incorrect.

 

[NoDevils]

I tend to see Depersonalization/Derealization as a very broad spectrum. The common factor in dissociation seems to be that the Protective Fight or Flight mode of Instinct is either "stuck" on or antagonized through repeated Panic Attacks or something similar. There's certain symptoms that tend to be prevalent with the Fight or Flight response. Some people have this dissociation state as stemming from trauma, (and trauma can be from so many different life events as well). Some have dissociation from drug induced experiences, most commonly marijuana.

The second time I smoked weed, I had weed induced DP/DR for 15 minutes. Thanks to a friend I was able to relax, lay down, close my eyes and it passed. Then I smoked weekly for 2 years before I had the breakdown, that I'm just now getting over 19.5 years later. It's different but still can be talked about using the same terminology. That's the thing too, words are so limited, especially with feelings of unreality. For 10 years I spoke almost daily with another sufferer of dissociation. We finally concluded that even though we were both using the same words, we actually are like polar opposites in our disorders.

It could also be said that anxiety has different causes and presentations, including being triggered by marijuana, but we regard all anxiety as essentially similar. The terms used to describe psychiatric problems are a little bit imprecise, alluding to experiences and constructs rather than material things. I think the mental health community has sort of teamed up with neuroscientists in referring to anxiety as a neurological phenomenon, like you were saying about "fight or flight," but our understanding of the brain is limited in the neurological sense too. I think most people can heal from anxiety or depersonalization thinking of it as "fight or flight" but this only goes so far, like what happens after you've done every breathing exercise and self-reflection you can stomach yet you're watching your child be born or proposing to your fiancé and feel like the experience isn't real? That's speaking of people who function on a high enough level to achieve those things in the first place. I don't know what to do in such a situation other than practice acceptance.

 

[coolwhip27]

Well I disagree. You seem certain about your position. I on the other hand have theories open to being proven incorrect.

To me, it’s a fact and not an opinionated position. I’m not saying knowledge is useless. But it will always be limited and therefore never take consciousness to timelessness. Theorize, I do too.
But if it’s more important to have a position instead of discuss, then I’ll stop

 

[NoDevils]

Well, the word means what it means. Science itself won’t ever manipulate consciousness. What will do the manipulation is the consciousness itself, which does not come through theories, study, or any kind of knowledge that the consciousness itself chooses to hold onto. Consciousness becoming aware of ITSELF is what it is, not through any scientific model which is just something our consciousness has put together

Not to be rude or crazy but you can manipulate consciousness with a hammer. In my reply to TOF I was talking about people who had traumatic brain injuries and what we might stand to learn about consciousness from them. Scientists could probably learn a lot about consciousness if they had a population to experiment on without ethics, though practically speaking it's not clear how much scientists who don't value ethics could benefit the human race. For the most part we're limited to things that happen by accident and we're limited by financial incentives or lack thereof.

By having a metaphysical discussion we're bumping up against what humans are capable of knowing and understanding, so maybe TOF's idea about manipulating and understanding consciousness will never be realized. Maybe a meteor or stupid decisions we make will blow us up before then. Or maybe, playing devil's advocate, that information isn't worth the investment.

 

[Trith]

I know this post might be confusing but it’s the best I can do. Feel free to question and critique
Everyone here with chronic DP aka the ones that continuously suffer can’t seem to find an answer. Since the answer obviously means no DP then its just a fact that DP is ongoing, so it’s seen as an unsolved problem. While it’s attempted to go over the problem in order to discover something, the problem also may be in action (while we’re doing that). Take a look for a second. What is the state of a mind that isn’t concluding anything about anything? It’s not occupied by anything then. Pretend like we just met a house party and we’re talking for the first time. What do you really have to say to me? Just whatever thoughts you’ve gathered from this paragraph, as boggling, confusing or empty as it may sound?

I think we should be discussing this. Can we live life without certainty? I mean that very deeply, not just expressed in words. When you go with certainty you’re always lead into uncertainty. Because youll always find what proves you wrong, aswell as certainty being resistance. If you’re certain about something then you can’t change your mind about it correct? So there’s resistance with having that conclusion.

When the mind is questioning and not answering there is clarity. No, I dont think I’m a hypocrite. It’s inward certainty I’m talking about, creating predetermined thoughts. Writing statements is not what I mean by certainty

I think I was thinking about something similar when reading the latest post about acceptance. Acceptance for me works with not knowing. I accept things when I listen to my feelings about my current situations, and I try to relax, and perhaps I will accept one thing I never thought about and I accept bit by bit by remaining open. But if I think I know what I should accept now, and if that acceptance doesn't happen, I might get frustrated and try to accept even harder and paradoxically it becomes a struggle in and of itself. When I struggle, it is usually because I think I know where I should go but it doesn't seem to happen so I try harder. So it is me trying to win against the world and against my feelings. But if I accept that I don't know, I start resting and listening to the world, to what my feelings are telling me and listen more to the present. I let life teach me more. It's like life is a friend I learn from rather than something I can shape to my idea of what it should be.
Sometimes there are things I can't accept for now, and when this happens perhaps this is what I can accept, that I don't have control over this. And maybe later I will accept something totally unrelated and something will unlock in me and then I will be able to accept something further. It's like those 3D puzzles where all the pieces are interlocked together and you can't remove them. There is only one that can be moved first and once that one has moved, then maybe another one can move and so on. So if I think I know what is the next piece that is supposed to move, I am trying to make my view win over life and I will keep struggling and struggling. But I don't have to do that, I can also be a friend with that whole puzzle and try to help it relax and then something might move on its own if I am very gentle and nice. I create the atmosphere and space so that things can trust me and unlock.

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

To me, it’s a fact and not an opinionated position. I’m not saying knowledge is useless. But it will always be limited and therefore never take consciousness to timelessness. Theorize, I do too.
But if it’s more important to have a position instead of discuss, then I’ll stop

I consider my own spiritual path being a Gnostic. That's not typo of Agnostic. Gnosis means Knowledge of Self. And as far as Science goes, I think it's infinitely more important for one to "Know Thyself" than to have a technology that can work with Consciousness. In a way, meditation and Enlightenment could be called a "Science of Self".

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

 

[coolwhip27]

I think I was thinking about something similar when reading the latest post about acceptance. Acceptance for me works with not knowing. I accept things when I listen to my feelings about my current situations, and I try to relax, and perhaps I will accept one thing I never thought about and I accept bit by bit by remaining open. But if I think I know what I should accept now, and if that acceptance doesn't happen, I might get frustrated and try to accept even harder and paradoxically it becomes a struggle in and of itself. When I struggle, it is usually because I think I know where I should go but it doesn't seem to happen so I try harder. So it is me trying to win against the world and against my feelings. But if I accept that I don't know, I start resting and listening to the world, to what my feelings are telling me and listen more to the present. I let life teach me more. It's like life is a friend I learn from rather than something I can shape to my idea of what it should be.
Sometimes there are things I can't accept for now, and when this happens perhaps this is what I can accept, that I don't have control over this. And maybe later I will accept something totally unrelated and something will unlock in me and then I will be able to accept something further. It's like those 3D puzzles where all the pieces are interlocked together and you can't remove them. There is only one that can be moved first and once that one has moved, then maybe another one can move and so on. So if I think I know what is the next piece that is supposed to move, I am trying to make my view win over life and I will keep struggling and struggling. But I don't have to do that, I can also be a friend with that whole puzzle and try to help it relax and then something might move on its own if I am very gentle and nice. I create the atmosphere and space so that things can trust me and unlock.

Yeah, I think you’re kind of saying like accepting is not thinking about whether or not you know your car is going to start. You don’t know if it will and that’s ok. It doesn’t even cross your mind if it will or not. Except instead of it being a car, it’s reality, or maybe you. Thats insightful because acceptance doesn’t take any recognition, its not like you say “I accept this thing” or whatever. I wonder if acceptance might be the wrong word then, since imo it’s more inaction than action. And like you said about life being a teacher, if one can’t listen to their surroundings then they can’t learn. In the same way, if all you can hear is your own thoughts then you can’t listen