[person3]

(Thoughts I developed after a highly troubled friend with a sordid family past, who coped by making fun of people, drinking, making lewd comments and being sarcastic...one night he broke down over the direction of his life and in an instant felt the love of god and became a born again Christian, now is extremely fundamentalist and black and white. This whole thing could be a hoax on his part, but I have experienced similar with my whole Ayn Rand idealism at age 17, so if it is true I very much can see why. This might be of help to those of you who at some point in your life became blindingly devoted to a cause and felt "born again"...)

I wonder, sometimes, if the revelations that bring someone to a renewed state, or born again, in which they adopt strict moral values from only one source (be it christianity, objectivism, scientology, their moms, whatever), comes from the "too much" realized in the breakdown moment that happens right before the "re-birth".

What I'm saying is this:

A lot of people experience parts of their lives where things stop working, stop being fun, etc. Things slow down, then spiral down into a depression. Things are out of control when even the most dangerous and edgy vices are doing nothing to serve the person.

The person has a momentary breakdown of maybe a minute or a few days or longer, where they either experience a black depression (something I named...the kind of depression where you literally see nothing in your future and you just want to fold up into a crumb) or some other experience in which the APATHY and rebellion the person has shown to the world is taken to a deeper level. Kind of like your brain saying "Oh. So you want to see what it's like to REALLY not care and REALLY have nothing instead of acting like it for so long? Well, you are already a drama queen saying that you don't care and you can do whatever the hell you want, I am your Unconscious recieving these messages from your ego and because you think it's so true I will show you what apathy and escape are actually like outside of the ego and when primary rather than used for dramatic effect."

And the reality of what you're dramatizing...the REAL apathy versus the "You just watch, I'm going to snort all this coke and I don't CARE what YOU think!" that is a drama queen's ploy for revenge...the REAL reality, the feeling your unconscious mind gives you because you have told it for so long that "I don't care" and your unconscious cannot decipher between drama-queen ranting and actual feelings...it [your unconscious] cannot make metaphors and it cannot distinguish between fantasy and reality; it can only take things literally...puts you in a true state...

the black depression.

And you freak out. I've done it. Others have done it. You think: Oh my god...what is happening...I don't even know who I am anymore...but not because you're particularly ANXIOUS...well, you kind of are.. You are in a new state of REAL depression and apathy that is so scary and unfamiliar and NOT you that it produces feelings of fear...

Maybe in this moment your mind is ready to accept and cling solidly to the first thing it sees/hears/reads/conceives of...you will adopt to the first glimmer of hope like an infant will cling to her mother to save her from this new world where she is cold and completely helpless.

Maybe fundamentalism and being born again are like getting a new parent.

You give up your dirty human intelligence and strive for absolutist, black-and-white thinking (which, ironically, is one of the first stages of thinking in humans, usually happens in the toddler years, to deal with the terrifying ambivalence of the world one must compartmentalize into either/or categories)...

being born again, in this sense, really IS being born again

regressing?

going back to a primary though process where everything is okay because you pushed TOO far and saw TOO much when you, pre-revelation, were content with blaming the world for your problems or one of myriad complex thought lines that made you feel so helpless and scared.

Born, back to the mind of a toddler. Out of fear.

What do you guys think?

 

[g-funk]

Spot on my friend. Great analogy too -'born again'

I have born again Christian friends. They were at that all-too familiar point of no return before they discovered God. I'd like to point out that what I'm saying is in no way derogatory towards Christians, but, using religion in this way is like putting all your eggs in one basket. Faith and blind faith are two different things. If something helps, I'm all for it but relying on something to make sense of the world for you is a bad idea.

This may provoke some heated debates I think...

 

[Guest]

I certainly agree with you (but like gfunk said, it's going to be a HOT one)

Also, the Rules and "black and white" of Good versus Evil, etc. provides a "stablizer" for anyone who has anxiety around decisions, choosing one thing while losing another, etc. ...the more Proscribed lifestyle of fundamentalism removes that individual angst - 'Just do THIS and never do THAT" - recipe that relieves personal choice.

 

[Guest]

Well since I am a born again Christian, I think I can share it from my perspective.

And for the record- I'm not offended by anything you said. I am sure if I weren't one of these born again Christians, I'd see things the same way.

It's hard to describe "faith" into words or living by the "spirit." If you haven't been "born again" than (according to my bible and what I truly believe) you can't really perceive the things of the spirit. You can only understand the things of the "flesh" or the world.

Living a life of faith is living by the unseen- not the seen. It's the total opposite of what we know.

Is it blind faith? I suppose it is. I can't physically God. I wasn't there when Jesus died on the cross. I haven't audibly heard His voice or touched Him. So believing in someone I have never really seen, is a total and complete trust.

That's what faith is..

I have a friend who is not a Christian that told me once, " that's great if that's what makes YOU feel better and cope. It's your crutch."

My reply is, " A crutch isn't so bad if you are crippled."

So yes, in a sense, coming to the "end of ones self" and feeling utterly hopeless and helpless often is when a person comes to know God or becomes born again.

But I guess I see it in a more simple way; sometimes you fight off going to the doctor until it is absolutely necessary. But the doctor is for the sick, not the well.

People go through their life thinking they have it all together and don't need God. Then, in almost every life, there comes a time when you begin to wonder what the point is. What am I here for? what is the purpose of living? what happens when you die?

And you realize how TINY you really are in the scope of things... some people then turn to alcohol, drugs, sex, careers, money.. and a few people run straight into the arms of the only one who can give an answer to all those questions... God.

So yep, I'm one of those who believes I have been born again.

I do see things as black and white, right and wrong, truth or not.

I've lived the other way; drugs, sex, lies, etc..

I wouldn't trade this blind faith for nothing in the world!

 

[jft]

I was a born again type for five years, and was one who was at the point you mentioned at "onset" of born againness. You have an interesting look at it. Don't know if I agree, but it is intrigueing. Could be too that maybe God does exist and sometimes people have to be down to that point to really see a need for God and out of despair they legitimately go for it.
I do know though that peeps like me with obessive, ruminative and doubting brains (and other predispositional stuff toward future dp/dr) gravitate toward things like theology and philosophy (my two minors in college hee hee). It is in this arena that we can search for our answers and needs for certainty not knowing that we will never find certainty (unless it comes from the heart) becasue of the nature of our pathological ruminative doubt. But of course finding the answer is never the true goal of an obsessive, the ongoing search is the goal. To find the answer would only bring anxiety. Doubting is the dymanic that keeps it all at bay.
I would have thought that the absolutes and black and white thinking would have helped me, but it really jsut fed my obsessive and depersonalized need to search and doubt but never to find. I gave up my faith due to the intense confusion it all created. Too bad really. I thought I indeed had something.
jftmn

 

[g-funk]

I'm glad we didn't offend you and I hope you don't mind if I ask some questions - how has it helped you in terms of dp/mental health?

Also, how did you come across this faith?

 

[Guest]

You can read how I "found God" in the religion thread.. I shared my God experience over there. If you can't find it, let me know and I'll find it and copy it here.

How does it help me with dp/dr. Well, this dp thing is very new to me and it is without a doubt a living nightmare and awful (even with God).

But honestly, I really, really, feel if I didn't have hope that God will get me through it, I would've likely ended my life by now.

Maybe I'm weaker than the average Joe but it's hope and faith in God and that alone that has helped me to keep on this fight.

 

[jft]

Spriggy. I hope I don't chase this thread out of this section and over to the religion thread, but I had a comment.
I left my active practice of Christianity becasue so often I would be so depersonalized that to have an "intimate" and "personal" relationship with God when I lost my sense of self and enviroment seemed impossible. I would, as dp/dr creeped in at Bible studies and church doings and spiritual discussions, lose this "connection" I had with God instantly. One hour I would feel in tune, the next hour jsut depersonalized. This inconsistancy drove me bonkers. I would then get angry and say that if God can't help me help him then I would leave. And I did. I wish I could have seen like you are seeing it now. You are a lucky man.
jft

 

[terri*]

Person3...you put together a very interesting post. The concept/theory you write about was written in a way which I, as one of those who "believe" in the big story of the big Guy in the sky, found no problem in your using as an example of what could be.
Many things could be. I don't know how black and white I actually am about The Big Picture. I just know, like Spriggy, I get the Picture.

As for me, I'm fine with whatever people believe. I hope the thread can stay on the point that Person3 makes, as it is in relationship to whatever "renewed state, or born again, in which they adopt strict moral values from only one source (be it christianity, objectivism, scientology, their moms, whatever)..." breakdown moments that happens right before a re-birth so to speak.

I do think you need to add atheist and agnostic to the pot. I mean, I do think one can certainly look at all that goes on in the world and come up with that as their take on the whole thing and how it relates to what happened when they were "pushed too far and saw too much".

It cracks my brother-in-law up that I " still believe in that fairy tale". I hope seeing in shades of gray ends up being okay when it's all said and done.

Good luck with your thought of being "born, back to the mind of a toddler. Out of fear." It's a very interesting point to ponder.

terri*

 

[person3]

Yes, athieism and agnosticism too (those went with my objectivism...well I was so b and w in my thinking that I went straight for atheism!)

Terri made a very important point guys. This has nothing to do with god or religion (although I appreciate the posts about people's born again christianity experiences, faith in god does matter in this world and it is good to have it if you are comfortable with the idea of god). It has to do with the process of hitting rock bottom and then suddenly emerging new.

And the asshole that did the LJ thing did the whole thing as a very early April Fool's trick. I thought I was onto something there...

Well, if it's still valid, discuss.

Also let me mention that whatever we attach to in that born again state is ALSO a good thing in some respects, it has good and bad...not all good or all bad. See, in a born again state people establish new rules for themselves, usually ones of order, cleanliness, activities and tasks, structure, responsibility, social awareness (even if it is about figuring what's wrong with others...at least now you NOTICE them!), humility (sometimes, and not always a good/bad thing...just a thing), acceptance of some aspects of reality, energy, motivation, positivity, strength, initiative, ecstatic joy, loss of anxiety (for the short time period), appreciation for life and things around them, love, self-respect and self-confidence. At least those are the things I learned on my Atlas Shrugged high.

If I had just acquired DP without having experienced a dose of an author who taught me about personal accountability, the negative effects of guilt, living for myself first before others, standing up for myself...I would NEVER have understood ANY of those concepts, not in a million jillion years.

OR...would I have?

Maybe it was some things I knew in me all along, and a book and a good moment caused a flood of everything coming together at once. Maybe I should read it again It is a good read, even if it's written by a helplessly neurotic woman (whose name isn't Janine....er um..)

 

[Homeskooled]

In this area of life, I dont believe in black and white thinking. I'm actually going to quote Janine, and say that its all shades of gray. I think that its incredibly healthy to have doubts about your faith. This is the way it should be - faith should be a leap that you knowingly make. The thing that is so unnerving about some Born Again Christians ( and not all- I went to an evangelical school for a time eventhough I'm Catholic ) is that they KNOW that they know the truth. And you can look in their eyes, and the blank stare tells you, they really, really do think they KNOW it. But thats when I kind of know that their faith isnt the real Mcoy. It may be a reaction to something in their life, in which case they'll eventually move onto something else to fill the voids, or else they may be the kind of people referred to as "sheep", followers who want acceptance and arent using their critical thinking skills. They say that when we die, two of the evangelical virtues will no longer exist. Faith, because you'll KNOW that God exists, which is supposed to be impossible on this earth, and hope, because you've finally won the prize - you dont need to hope for it anymore. In other words, if someone claims to KNOW the truth about God, they're either alrieady dead, or in the more likely scenario, very confused.

I've dealt with this alot, because my father's gut reaction to things in his life was to read them as either black or white. It started with religion, and then worked its way down to things like his relatives and children. First it was attending Mass alot.....then it was reading sin into silly things....then it was cutting himself off from his family because of their imperfections, finally, it was cutting himself off from me for having DP. Its a form of control, just like OCD. Its for the insecure. But if you see God as being governed by rules, rather than governing them, you'll eventually lose control of the house of cards you're precipitously building. This is the kind of mentality which makes ME queasy about religion. But to be honest, I believe my dad's existential preoccupations and OCDish thinking are something biological his father passed onto him, and he passed onto me. He's a good guy, but he's at the mercy of his own mind. Unless he takes medication, I dont see him changing any time soon. And my mother, who is a bit of a "sheep", isnt going to be the one to tell him to.

As a DP person, I understand this mindset. How many people on this board tend to have a black and white mindset? How many want answers to existential questions NOW? How many need to KNOW the TRUTH about reality, NOW? Almost everyone. So I think I understand where my father is coming from- and its not a good place to be. And it certainly isn't the Truth.

Thanks for the post, Person3.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[sleepingbeauty]

i agree 100%. thats the really sad part about evangelical christianity thats why i renounced it long ago. i got so fed up with people telling me that apples are electric blue.. and if i dont believe it im going to hell. that is the reason i believe that SOME christians believe what they are told wholeheartedly. because they are SCARED into it. if you dont do this... then THIS WILL HAPPEN TO YOU!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

its sooooooo OCD. :roll: and it just enrages me when someone forces themselves on me without my permission and invades my personal airspace to tell me that im doomed for all eternity. its extremely rude and to use the excuse that its to save my soul and they care so much about me is a bunch of booboo. it makes me so sad that they cant see that.

i dont mean to get all martin on this thread.. but this topic really gets under my skin. this black and white thinking has caused millions upon millions to die for it... people are dying even now the war of 'im right and youre wrong' has completely split the world apart. its also split up countless families including my own.

an open mind is a beautiful thing and a gift from GOD. its so sad that so many cant understand that.

 

[person3]

Now wait guys...look deeper into it...SB that was a good post but I ask you to maybe think BEYOND the minds of the local evangelists...I'm talking about a personal journey here. I had this kind of experience when I was 17. I'm sure I looked like a sheep, a follower, blind-faith, a lemming, etc. But I also learned a LOT of valuable things that help me cope now. I can't tell if it's what LED to the breakdown in the first place, but if it wasn't then it sure gave me some extra survival tools.

I'm not really for or anti "born again" groups. I'm trying to understand it more as a part of life that people turn to in times of great mental trouble or other distress, or maybe just because they're lost. Because I did the same thing, just not with Christianity. Instead of saying that they are the people who destroy homes, ask why an individual would make that choice?

Why choose absolutist black and white thinking?

Why choose to be subject to strict rules?

Why choose to close off to loved ones and friends?

Why choose to change your personality and lifestyle?

These are not the most appealing choices...I mean I'd much rather choose a vacation in Florida...so there has to be a lot behind why one clings tenaciously to this new system, why they adopt it.

I know of at least one old member of this board who WAS a born-again christian after a life of drugs and women...when his first child was born it happened...eventually he got DR for 5 years (his name was Ravenstone)...it turned out to be sleep apnea...but I think he was also making some psychological process; at one time he said because of DR he was doing more things he had been previously afraid to do in life, etc.

I think the "bad boy" past combined with the "born again" dynamic is something to be considered. Another person formerly on this board (recovered) broke down partially due to a challenge to her very strong, rigid moral beliefs.

It's like the "born again" structure is something one goes to when they feel their life is in EXTREME danger...and when that structure is cracked, DP can happen. That's somewhat of where I'm getting to with this.

 

[Homeskooled]

I think you answered your own question, Person. Black and white thinking IS something you go to when you feel as if you are in EXTREME danger. When your insecure. Why? Well, everyone who is insecure doesnt necessarily do this. I think that you have to either be abnormally insecure, or what is more likely, be a bit of a black and white thinker in the first place, which makes you awfully insecure in a gray, gray world. Cant make sense of things? Cant understand why your unhappy? Things like extreme religions, extreme political movements, extreme philosophies, all give easy answers. Well, its because the proletariat is being pushed about by the capitalist slavedrivers....if the workers owned everything, life would be a utopia! Or maybe you've been practicing religion half-heartedly - cut yourself off from your family! Tell others that unless you do as they do, they will go to Hell! God has no time for you unless you live in a world of black and white! I also kind of think, that , honestly, you have to have a very simple thought process to be able to live a life like that. Its too full of contradictions for it make sense for long....this is probably why it led the one man into the mother-of-all doubts, DP. Its a rational process, which like a pendulum, will swing from absolute certainty to absoulte doubt and despair. The mind cant dam up the floodwaters of thought forever. And when its released, it bursts forth with a vengeance. I think that the first thing these people need to learn, is that its okay to be insecure. Its okay not to know these things for sure. They're kind of like alkies for certainty - they'll always have that craving for absolute thinking, but if they can at least admit that, and that its okay not to feed it, they're one step ahead of the game.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[jft]

Being broken. Hitting rock bottom. Bottoming out. A nervous breakdown. All terms that describe that black hole of despair where nothing else works..not even escape. I got to thinking about so many I know that have quasi "born' again" experiences but without religion or even philosophy. A person fresh out of treatment for chemical dependency has a sense of "everything born new" and will immediately subscribe to a new rule book of life, stuffed full of black and white thinking and given increible new perceptions full of life. A newly divorced person who has been through the mill finally gets up from the pit and sees life "for the first time". Any situation where one has been brought to that hole and had their self battered to death and emerges from it has a "born again" experience in a sense.
I think that experience is really described in one word...HOPE. It casts an incredible light on life and propells one away from their past. This is not regression. This is life as it was meant to be.

I agree that one has seen too much when they overload, before their "rebirth" as you put it person 3. And yes many do cling to the first way out and wind up in arenas where they would never had gone before. But I feel the dynamic is always that when one wants out he then seeks drastic change. Change gives hope. Hope gives new eyes and ears. And life seems born again. Clean..innocent...guilt free. Black and white thinking and following new rules does not mean bad if it works. And for many it works well. They put together the shattered self in a simple way after seeing life as being too complicated. Maybe they have it right. Maybe life is simple. We make it complicated. I do not know.
jft

 

[kenc127]

Maybe life is simple. We make it complicated.

I think life is hard, but we make it harder.

Ken

 

[person3]

Hm, we could be making things too complicated out of this...only problem is with me, a year and a half after my "born again" incident, and six months after finding severe faults with the person I was "following" and felt really distressed as I was possibly more black and white than HER, was when I had my REAL breakdown with DP.

So while it almost HAD to happen to "save" me, it wasn't the be-all end-all, and sometimes it makes me a little more wary...when you ditch off the past you have to be careful not to ditch off the friends and family and parts of yourself UNLESS they are irreparably harmful influences.

 

[Martinelv]

It's well known that there are a hundred different ways that you may encounter 'god/s'. Be it 'end of the road' kind of stress, depression, drugs...even surgical intervention. Stick a probe into the part of your brain just behind your frontal lobes and wiggle it about a bit and, hey presto, instant spiritual enlightenment. They are all one of the same thing.

I'm all for finding god/s if it helps people through the day.

 

[person3]

sometimes I think your atheism gets YOU through the day...

 

[Guest]

Good point, Person. I think anyone's expectations color how they want to see the world. Same with me, Martin, whoever.

"Sometimes I think I would want to see my convictions reinforced instead of humbly seeking the truth, if the truth would contradict those convictions."