[Peter]

I'm going to totally side-track, but I have heard that one reason narcissism is not well studied is that narcissists don't go to therapy themselves, most of the time, because they don't think there is anything wrong with them.

They may be seeing psychiatrists for their comorbidities. For example in the famous case series by Simeon 13% of all subjects, who were assessed for personality disorders were diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. Thus I guess psychiatrists had plenty of opportunities to study such people, but not much came out of it.

Moreoever even if narcissists realized something was wrong with them, I don't think it wouldn't help them, because their is no treatment for narcissism.

But from what I hear and read, it seems to have very specific and strong signs that are not present in all the population, as you might expect from something that is just a very wide spread character trait.

I don't know what argument exactly purged narcissistic personality disorder from the ICD-11, but my guess would be that there is lack of empirical evidence for it's validity and alleged etiology. Another problem might be it's overlap with antisocial personality disorder, which was retained in ICD-11.

 

[Phantasm]

Generally, narcissism is about dominating others and imposing their view and personality over other people. See above.

 

[Peter]

Generally, narcissism is about dominating others and imposing their view and personality over other people. See above.

What I'm seeing above is an exchange of opinions. I don't see the part where the dominating or imposing takes place, but I'm also not the kind of person who feels "dominated" when other people have opinions contrary to my own.

 

[Phantasm]

Sure.

 

[NoDevils]

I'm also not the kind of person who feels "dominated" when other people have opinions contrary to my own.

You are that kind of person. That's why you call everyone you disagree with recovery nazis, imply they're oppressing you, and have a delusional trolling battle against everyone. Exchange of ideas isn't the right word because it's more like people saying things and then you saying nuh-uh ad infinitum.

 

[Peter]

You are that kind of person. That's why you call everyone you disagree with recovery nazis, imply they're oppressing you, and have a delusional trolling battle against everyone. Exchange of ideas isn't the right word because it's more like people saying things and then you saying nuh-uh ad infinitum.

You are dishonest, when you claim that I'm calling people recovery nazis who disagree with me. The term "recovery nazi" is an umbrella term for a specific kind of people with current or former depersonalization disorder who exploit other sufferers by portraying depersonalization disorder as a disorder everyone can recover from, often in conjunction with monetary gain by selling a "recovery method" or by otherwise making money off their fellow sufferers. Of course, those people disagree with me, but they are only a subset of all people who disagree with me.

Moreover I think it's correct to say that recovery nazis oppress the other sufferers. Their portrayal of depersonalization disorder contributes to the maintenance of the current status quo, to cementing the status of depersonalization disorder as a disorder ignored by psychiatry. That's because on the one hand they fool sufferers into believing that there already is a cure and they do not need to do anything in order to change the public image (or better: the lack thereof) of the disorder so that psychiatrists start to take it seriously. On the other hand non-sufferers, including professionals, who try to inform themselves about depersonalization disorder have a high likelihood to stumble upon their websites, where they read that everybody can get out of depersonalization disorder. But why should the public and professionals take depersonalization disorder seriously and start to fund research when even sufferers proclaim that depersonalization disorder is already curable? Some recovery nazis also run their own forums, for example on Facebook. In my experience they ban hammer on the slightest bit of criticism. They also remove posts about treatments that actually have evidence backing them up like Lamotrigine, so they also prevent sufferers from seeking treatments that could actually work for them.

Recovery nazis act to keep sufferers in the miserable state they are in and they do so for their own gain. You may disagree with this, but for me that's oppression.

 

[NoDevils]

You are dishonest, when you claim that I'm calling people recovery nazis who disagree with me. The term "recovery nazi" is an umbrella term for a specific kind of people with current or former depersonalization disorder who exploit other sufferers by portraying depersonalization disorder as a disorder everyone can recover from, often in conjunction with monetary gain by selling a "recovery method" or by otherwise making money off their fellow sufferers. Of course, those people disagree with me, but they are only a subset of all people who disagree with me.

Moreover I think it's correct to say that recovery nazis oppress the other sufferers. Their portrayal of depersonalization disorder contributes to the maintenance of the current status quo, to cementing the status of depersonalization disorder as a disorder ignored by psychiatry. That's because on the one hand they fool sufferers into believing that there already is a cure and they do not need to do anything in order to change the public image (or better: the lack thereof) of the disorder so that psychiatrists start to take it seriously. On the other hand non-sufferers, including professionals, who try to inform themselves about depersonalization disorder have a high likelihood to stumble upon their websites, where they read that everybody can get out of depersonalization disorder. But why should the public and professionals take depersonalization disorder seriously and start to fund research when even sufferers proclaim that depersonalization disorder is already curable? Some recovery nazis also run their own forums, for example on Facebook. In my experience they ban hammer on the slightest bit of criticism. They also remove posts about treatments that actually have evidence backing them up like Lamotrigine, so they also prevent sufferers from seeking treatments that could actually work for them.

Recovery nazis act to keep sufferers in the miserable state they are in and they do so for their own gain. You may disagree with this, but for me that's oppression.

Your assessment of people's bullshit is pretty accurate but from there it becomes delusional. Every person who acts stupidly is harming the social justice of depersonalized people and preventing treatment from occurring? That's a stretch, especially considering you and I both know from experience the treatments you're touting don't work. You're connecting a bunch of things together that are unrelated and ultimately unimportant. "They could be putting more people in Germany on lamotrigine, the treatment that has higher likelihood of a skin reaction than a benefit to depersonalization, and if you say something I don't like then you're responsible for this injustice and I'm going to troll you." It's stupid. It doesn't take memorizing a bunch of psychopharmacological terms to recognize this behavior as totally asinine.

When forum users ask you how to increase clinical trials and overall awareness of depersonalization, or tells you about a charity that's attempting to do so, you ignore or take the steam out of what they've said. How is that congruent with your stated goals? Anything that isn't trolling or talking about ineffective experimental treatments seems to be of no interest to you.

I'm as tired of ineffective treatments as I am of "recovery nazis." Trust me, I've tried many treatments but there are always more. There are still doctors who want to do ECT and use weak magnetic stimulation devices on me, even though those aren't indicated for depersonalization. I've chosen to live my life.

 

[Peter]

Your assessment of people's bullshit is pretty accurate but from there it becomes delusional. Every person who acts stupidly is harming the social justice of depersonalized people and preventing treatment from occurring?

"Acting stupidly" and "harming social justice" oversimplifies my account, but my opinion is that the actions of recovery nazis prevent people from getting treatments and professionals from gaining interest, thus delaying future treatments from being found. It's also questionable whether some of the more prominent recovery nazis are actually "acting stupidly". For example Shuan O' Connor claimed that he sold 25000 copies of his depersonalization manual. If his numbers are true (after all we cannot check them) and he sold all of his copies for 90$, then he would have made 2250000$ just with a book filled with largely unfounded hearsay. That's immoral and deceptive and contentwise his book qualifies for stupidity, but the way he marketed it is actually clever. I doubt he worked more than a few months at his book, so he got a hugh return from quite a comparably low investment. THAT doesn't sound stupid to me. He is certainly somewhat streetwise.

That's a stretch, especially considering you and I both know from experience the treatments you're touting don't work.

Why should I conclude from my experience of not responding to them that others won't, too? In addition I know people who got symptom-free while on Lamotrigine.

You're connecting a bunch of things together that are unrelated and ultimately unimportant.

A baseless claim.

They could be putting more people in Germany on lamotrigine, the treatment that has higher likelihood of a skin reaction than a benefit to depersonalization, and if you say something I don't like then you're responsible for this injustice and I'm going to troll you.

Multiple studies found that about 50% of all subjects respond to Lamotrigine to some degree. The forum's apparent main enemy TDX looked at how many on this forum showed evidence of a positive effect in their posts and came up with a number of about 25%. That's lower, but might be owed to different sample characteristics. We don't know the true response rate, but overall Lamotrigine is a very safe drug and I even found it to be more tolerable than most other psych meds I tried. I do not see a reason, why Lamotrigine shouldn't be the main treatment for depersonalization disorder. In particular I doubt that it's less likely to help than cause skin reactions. The chance to get a rash from Lamorigine is about 10% and the chance to get Stevens Johnson syndrome or toxic epidermal necrolysis is about 0.4%. Even if skin reactions were more likely than a benefit, it wouldn't matter that much, since most rashes from Lamotrigine are benign. After all we are still using SSRIs for depression, although their chance go improve depression is much lower than their likelihood to cause sexual dysfunction.

When forum users ask you how to increase clinical trials and overall awareness of depersonalization, or tells you about a charity that's attempting to do so, you ignore or take the steam out of what they've said.

Do you have an example of a post, where someone asked me "how to increase clinical trials and overall awareness of depersonalization" and I ignored it or did not make suggestions?

And concerning IDS and Unreal UK I already said why I consider them to have taken a wrong direction.

Anything that isn't trolling or talking about ineffective experimental treatments seems to be of no interest to you.

I just have another approach to this than many other sufferer. In accordance to recovery nazis their belief is that recovery could be found inside of us. I regard this approach as having failed at large and that the only way to get closer to a cure is to address the external causes for depersonalization disorder being underdiagnosed and underresearched. Actually that's how most self-help communities seem to act. The depersonalization community appears to have an excessive tendency to "internalize".

It doesn't take memorizing a bunch of psychopharmacological terms to recognize this behavior as totally asinine.

Asinine... Added another word to my english vocab.

 

[NoDevils]

You're not "the forum's main enemy" and lamotrigine doesn't have a fifty percent success rate. That's why I've been calling you delusional.

I don't know how Unreal UK took a wrong turn when Joe pretty much has the same opinion about depersonalization as you and me: depersonalization is woefully neglected, a lot of government health care systems are stingy with treatment to the point it harms patients, there need to be more trials, etc. Joe is actually the person I've met who's most aligned with what you're saying needs to be done.

 

[Peter]

and lamotrigine doesn't have a fifty percent success rate. That's why I've been calling you delusional.

I cited the results of several studies, another attempt at finding the response rate, that yielded a much lower result and admitted "We don't know the true response rate". Can you spot the delusion?

I don't know how Unreal UK took a wrong turn when Joe pretty much has the same opinion about depersonalization as you and me: depersonalization is woefully neglected, a lot of government health care systems are stingy with treatment to the point it harms patients, there need to be more trials, etc. Joe is actually the person I've met who's most aligned with what you're saying needs to be done.

I read his book. When looking superficially he appears to be on the same track as I am, but all the things you mention are actually self-evident and it takes a lot of delusion or maliciousness to deny them, so he won't get a prize for that. His main downside his book demonstrates is that, while the book is undoubtedly of superior quality compared to most other books by sufferers and he is more reasonable, he lacks critical thinking and believes everything people like Elaine Hunter and Anna Ciaunica throw at him. That's also my main criticism on Unreal UK. While more effective than IDS, which was essentially dead on arrival, at this time they are little more than a marionette of Elaine Hunter.

 

[NoDevils]

Is it fifty percent response rate or unknown response rate? By exaggerating the efficacy of things that haven't been adequately studied you're not doing much good. Joe is doing vastly more good than you, and your characterization of him is unfair, that's for certain. You're the recovery Nazi. You should start building the camps to put the Hunterites in.

 

[Peter]

Is it fifty percent response rate or unknown response rate? By exaggerating the efficacy of things that haven't been adequately studied you're not doing much good.

We can certainly say that Lamotrigine works for a significant proportion of sufferers, even if the response rate in studies was exaggerated, since in addition there are actually numerous credible testimonials on forums confirming it's effectiveness for some people. I would have already discarded the studies, if nobody or only very few people reported positive effects from Lamotrigine.

Actually it isn't that rare that there are clinical studies showing effectiveness for some treatment, without people on self-help-groups reporting any benefits. For example it happens all the time in tinnitus.

Joe is doing vastly more good than you, and your characterization of him is unfair, that's for certain. You're the recovery Nazi. You should start building the camps to put the Hunterites in.

 

[NoDevils]

We can certainly say that Lamotrigine works for a significant proportion of sufferers, even if the response rate in studies was exaggerated, since in addition there are actually numerous credible testimonials on forums confirming it's effectiveness for some people. I would have already discarded the studies, if nobody or only very few people reported positive effects from Lamotrigine.

Actually it isn't that rare that there are clinical studies showing effectiveness for some treatment, without people on self-help-groups reporting any benefits. For example it happens all the time in tinnitus.

Man you really act like a hopeless relic. Tinnitus is a normal sensory phenomenon. I'm gonna eat dinner now.

 

[Peter]

Tinnitus is a normal sensory phenomenon.

But not chronic tinnitus.

 

[NoDevils]

But not chronic tinnitus.

It's a normal phenomenon like visual snow, except some things such as hearing loss and head injury are proven to make it worse. I may be confusing "ear ringing" and "tinnitus" where one is a normal phnenomenon and the other is a super common medical complaint.

Silence May Lead To Phantom Noises Misinterpreted As Tinnitus

Phantom noises, that mimic ringing in the ears associated with tinnitus, can be experienced by people with normal hearing in quiet situations, according to new research. Tinnitus, an auditory perception that cannot be attributed to an external source, affects at least 36 million Americans on...

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Peter]

It's a normal phenomenon like visual snow, except some things such as hearing loss and head injury are proven to make it worse. I may be confusing "ear ringing" and "tinnitus" where one is a normal phnenomenon and the other is a super common medical complaint.

Silence May Lead To Phantom Noises Misinterpreted As Tinnitus

Phantom noises, that mimic ringing in the ears associated with tinnitus, can be experienced by people with normal hearing in quiet situations, according to new research. Tinnitus, an auditory perception that cannot be attributed to an external source, affects at least 36 million Americans on...

www.sciencedaily.com

According to this logic hallucinations are "normal", because all people get them in an isolation tank.

 

[NoDevils]

According to this logic hallucinations are "normal", because all people get them in an isolation tank.

No, tinnitus is more akin to something like visual snow than psychotic hallucinations, except that it can be exacerbated by hearing loss, injuries, and so forth. I don't think a doctor would make a synonym between tinnitus and psychotic hallucinations to his patient.

 

[leminaseri]

but overall Lamotrigine is a very safe drug and I even found it to be more tolerable than most other psych meds

user REB got erectile dysfunction from it. and another user i dont remember the name got complete emotional numb

 

[Peter]

user REB got erectile dysfunction from it. and another user i dont remember the name got complete emotional numb

Very safe doesn't mean that nothing can happen at all. Every medication has risks and side-effects. But my impression is that you are more likely to get erectile dysfunction and emotional numbness form SSRIs than from Lamotrigine.

No, tinnitus is more akin to something like visual snow than psychotic hallucinations, except that it can be exacerbated by hearing loss, injuries, and so forth. I don't think a doctor would make a synonym between tinnitus and psychotic hallucinations to his patient.

The point is that you are deriving the alleged "normality" of tinnitus from the well known fact that most people start to hear tinnitus in a soundproof room. That's fallacious, because a soundproof room is not a normal enviroment. During daily life we seldom encounter rooms with no noise, because there is always some low level noise from the outside that walls don't block or from electronic devices. Abnormal sensory input or lack of sensory input leads to abnormal perceptions. That not only includes tinnitus, but hallucinations (or "pseudo-hallucinations" if you want to assume the lack of a delusional component) as well.

 

[leminaseri]

erectile dysfunction and emotional numbness form SSRIs than from Lamotrigine.

yeah. and in one of your older posts you recommend people to try every med on the market available which include for sure ssris as well. this is the point where it begins to lose all of sense. depersonalization affects negatively the libido and the ability of feeling emotions anyway. then i should try a medicine what causes ED and emotional numbness? this is the biggest fuckshit i ever heard in my life. it is like driving fast on a rainy day and then trying to drift yet.