My naloxone trial

5518 Views 37 Replies 5 Participants Last post by teal, Jan 28, 2020

teal

Discussion Starter · Jan 23, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

I've got six Nyxoid nasal sprays, each containing 1.8 mg naloxone. I used the first of them today, eight minutes ago. To get a smaller dose, I blew my nose right after taking the first dose. Got five more doses left for later.

Why try? In the British Journal of Psychiatry they write.

Nuller et al(2001) found a significant transient beneficial effect of naloxone infusion on symptoms of depersonalisation in 10 of 14 patients studied. This intriguing result suggests a possible role of the endogenous opioid system in the pathogenesis of depersonalisation, and the possibility that anti-opioid drugs may have therapeutic value. To date, this hypothesis has not been explored further in the literature, despite the impressive results from this pilot study.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 23, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Appreciated, Broken. What the effects are? Nothing so far. I will prolly take a whole dose tomorrow, then a double dose on Saturday, then a double dose on Sunday, and then I am out of Naloxone and all done. There is a study on Naltrexone (sic) and depersonlization as well. How I got it? I'll send you a PM. That said, I have much more faith in things like the magnet treatment used in more recent studies.

UPDATE DAY 1. It's three hours since I took the dose. I've got some lightheadedness and dizziness. It's not bothersome.

@Mayer-Gross, yeah, people posting here does indeed become some sort of anecdotal supplement to data. That's why I post.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jan 24, 2020

I've already got the naloxone, and I am giving it a shot.

I found one or two positive reports on Reddit, if I remember correctly. Once I am done, anyone curious about naloxone will have one more case to build on.

Trials suspected of being false or a lie need also to be rebutted. As of recently the BJP wrote about the Russian results as intriguing. The more nonresponders, the less intriguing, and vice versa.

I know full well that the results of many trials are un-replicatable.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #16 · Jan 24, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Mayer-Gross said:
The other thing is the claim of being at out-pateint programme with such high numbers a patients in the former Sovjet. The awareness of depersonalisation is very low and so many people ending being referred to a outpatient programme sounds very unrealistic. Their response rate is also much higher than the english data. I think it is all made up.

I think you're right.

A while back, maybe half a year, I found some reports on Reddit, in the comment section, about getting better on naloxone. I did this Google search now: site:reddit.com depersonalization naloxone OR narcan

And with those keywords, I took a quick look over the comment section, I didn't see any "I got better from naloxone", but I saw this.

I'm on lamictal and it's doing great so far.

I was sick for 5 years prior to this and then tried Lamacital and it cured me for 7 years . Unfortunately it just came back (...)

So, DAY 2.

I've taken a dose of Nyxoid 30 minutes ago. So far I feel nothing.

Update. One hour fifty minutes after taking the dose, I got diarrhea.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jan 25, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

DAY 3
Used two Nyxoid nasal sprays four minutes ago. So this is the first day with a double dose.
Update: During the day I got quite a lot of lightheadedness.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jan 26, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

DAY 4
I got no sleep tonight. That happens sometimes. Rarely, but sometimes. It could be a side effect of yesterday's naloxone use, but hard to tell.

Four minutes ago I took two doses, i.e. two x 1.8 mg naloxone.

This is the last day.

UPDATE. I got some sleep after taking the doses. Hard to fall asleep, as always, but I managed. Still I've had no positive effect of the Nyxoid. No positive effect whatsoever.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #21 · Jan 26, 2020

This is a bit of a digression, but when I was healthy I got a strong runner's high. All it took was some ten minutes of running, and there it was. But now, alas, every feeling I have is so watered out I scarcely feel a thing, runner's high included.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #22 · Jan 26, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

CONCLUSION
Four days, titrated the dose upwards and it had no effect whatsoever.

I feel somewhat better by things like taking a double dose of Ambien, but naloxone? Nope. I'll hopefully try Klonopin for the first time next week.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #24 · Jan 26, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

I am trying clonazepam due to this paragraph, and the fact that Ambien has helped somewhat. Anyhow, I see that, like you write, it may work better with an antidepressant.

When lamotrigine cannot be tolerated or is ineffective, clonazepam may be useful, although the usual caveats regarding prescription of benzodiazepines apply. Although literature on the use of clonazepam in depersonalisation is scarce, one study found that it reduced levels of caffeine-induced derealisation in a single individual (Stein & Uhde, 1989). A role for anxiolytic drugs is also suggested by the data of Nuller (1982), and a recent case report describes an individual with primary depersonalisation successfully treated with a combination of clonazepam and citalopram (Sachdev, 2002). As Sachdev notes, the same combination has apparently been found effective by a number of contributors to an internet bulletin board for people with depersonalisation.

I am no fan of antidepressants. I was about to say they sap me for energy, but I haven't had much energy lately anyhow.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #26 · Jan 27, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Mayer-Gross said:
When I took 2,5 mg of Rivotril I was on Duloxetin 60.mg. It is the drug i tolerate the best. It can give some nausea if one starts with 60.mg at once so 30.mg is recommend the first week.

Oh, dang. I got a message today from my GP, about not getting clonazepam.

Valium. Would that somehow work, or? Your thoughts on this is appreciated, Mayer-Gross. I have taken Valium once before, but my memories of it is so vague.

As we know there is no blood test for F48.1. I've got a sky high score on the CDS, and lots of things mesh with DPD. The main reason I'd like to try clonazepam is to use it as a diagnostic tool. If I indeed get somewhat better, then it underpins that I have F48.1. I am not thinking about benzodiazepines as a permanent fix (they aren't), but like I wrote, primarily as a diagnostic tool

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teal

Discussion Starter · #28 · Jan 27, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Mayer-Gross said:
It can not be used as a diagnostic tool. I would guess that 20-30% might feel a response.So, if that is your idea,- drop it.

I know a danish women who felt nothing from it except being extremely tried. When it works it is the opposite. You fell much more energy and more present . I had tried other benzodiazepines prior to clonazepam without a similar effect. It could be that i was on other antidepressant. It likely shall be on a antidepressant that also works and you have been on for 4-6.weeks before such effect can be felt. There is no blodtest for any mental disorder and DNA test.

The blood test comment was meant as a sigh. I haven't got a diagnosis in the F-realm of ICD, so if I indeed get better, that would indicate we're talking about an F-diagonsis. That's what I meant by "diagnostic tool". As a tool it would not be precise as a scalpel, but blunt as a stone.

Much appreciated, your comments about other benzos. I looked over my digital journal now, and see I have used diazepam on some occations for sleep long, long ago. Sometimes I got somewhat better the next day, but most days not.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #30 · Jan 27, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Mayer-Gross said:
If you had a reduction of 30% on clonazepam it would still be very subjective and not something that can be evaluated from the outside.

Yeah, so it wouldn't be to evaluate it from the outside, but for myself. I've never seriously explored psychiatric diagnosis before. Only had them thoroughly excluded by a professional early in my case history (excluded mood disorders, excluded schizophrenia, excluded personality disorders, etc).

But I now have become aware of DPD, and I score really high on the Cambridge Depersonalization Scale, so I think it's a great fit. Pretty much everything fits. So, for my own sake, if a psychotropic drug would make me (temporarily) better, then that would be good to know. It would underpin the rest.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #32 · Jan 27, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Something that underpins something is not a confirmation. It's just something that underpins something. So, there are no good treatments of DPD. No good treatments. But Anthony S. David et al. writes this about clonazepam.

Regarding treatment for depersonalisation disorder

4 e clonazepam is useful in some patients.

You won't find such treatment advice for say A49.3. I don't want to discuss my medical history here out in the open, but yes, I do really think it would be valuable to know if I could get better by a psychotropic drug. I don't see what's off about that. Just like if someone got better by corticosteroids it would indicate they have some sort of inflammation, though what type and the cause would not be known. It would only be an indication.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #35 · Jan 27, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

Some people get symptom relief from corticosteroids without having an inflammation; some people don't improve by corticosteriods yet still have an inflammation. So to use diagnostic terms, neither the specificity or sensitivity is 100 %. I guess back in 2004 when you got better from clonazepam it made you less prone to think something like mononucleosis could be driving your symptoms, if you ever thought so.

Anyways, did you feel some sort of improvement instantaneously on clonazepam? I get instantaneous improvement from Ambien. I used to get instantaneous improvement from alcohol, a single unit of alcohol was enough. That was long ago, and now alcohol doesn't have such an effect. Or, well, I tried two units of alcohol just recently, and it did nothing. But I don't want to try a higher dose. Why it no longer works, I dunno. It could be that I need to break some sort of threshold, needing a higher dose, and it could be the disease has progressed and changed since it broke out.

I know full well about withdrawl. I have had Ambien withdrawl, which ain't good, but have never tried anything stronger. You could say using benzos is playing with fire, and I would agree, but I can limit the number of pills I get to less than a full box, and decide that I shall only take 0.5 mg one day, wait some days, try a higher dose, etc.

I don't want a dead-end diagnosis by a public health care system that doesn't do a damn thing. I have no faith in a psychiatrist who has nothing to offer but to perform an interview he/she has just looked up how to do and has never done before.

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teal

Discussion Starter · #38 · Jan 28, 2020 (Edited by Moderator)

I have never by myself thought i suffered from anything somatic.

I have never thought I suffered from anything psychiatric. Mononucleosis, CFS and lots of other diagnosis have been suggested.

But, the majority with depersonalisation who tries clonazepam do not benefit from it,- so it is not a diagnostic tool.

The majority who tries picking a lock with a binder clip fails, but that doesn't mean a binder clip is not a tool, it just means it's not a good tool, not a professional tool. If I'd take clonazepam and nothing happens, then whatever, but if I'd take clonazepam and I'd get some sort of instantaneous relief, then that would indicate my symptoms are psychiatric. Such an indication would be valuable to me. I guess it wouldn't be valuable to you, but to me, yes. Sure, sure, people with neurological conditions can also improve from benzos (absolutely!), but nonetheless it would be an indication I am on the right track.

But, some will say that since clonazepam works depersonalisation disorder dosn´t exist because it is a anxiety disorder with symptoms of depersonalisation/derealisation. You have go to therapy for anxiety. That is the position among some psychiatrists have here in Denmark.

Bully for me that such people aren't in charge of me. If I'd get better, then I'd think "gee this means an F-diagnosis is more probable", and the only F-diagnosis that hasn't been ruled out, which gives anhedonia, is F48.1, where I score off the charts on the symptom scale. Getting such affirmation would be encouraging going forth, when making attempts at getting further treatment.

If I'd get access to clonazepam, which I won't do in the near future, then I'd try 0.5 mg and then wait, then a bigger dose, say 1.0 mg, then wait, then a bigger dose, so on and so forth. Much appreciated what you write about doses! That you needed a higher dose!

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