A line from a favourite film of mine, War Games
'Strange game...the only way to win, is not to play'
'Strange game...the only way to win, is not to play'
Most of you are fighting a hopeless cause
G
(I do write good titles, don't I? grin grin)
But there is some truth in that title, because most of us have hopeless goals. We are stubborn and we are determined and we are desperate. And we will fail.
We WANT to finally get to the point where we can edge right up to the "OH MY GOD!" moment of abject terror - that moment where we feel each time 'this is it! I am really honestly going to lose control of myself in two seconds!!!!" - and be able to REALIZE in that moment that despite how it feels, we will be okay. We want to master it.
We want to be able to FEEL like we're right on the edge of total insanity and then TURN IT AROUND and be able to say 'now I understand...yes, that was only a thought and now I am in control of myself.."
That is how we WANT to recover. We want to master it.
However, that is not ever going to be possible.
NEVER.
Not ever.
Not today, or tomorrow or next year.
NOt with the "right meds' or the "right person" or the right attitude.
THAT IS NOT HOW THE MIND WORKS.
What you are chasing after is as ridiculous as if you were to say 'I want to heal my depression by realizing I don't need to be so SAD when I'm depressed."
IF you're IN it, you're IN IT. If you are having a massive anxiety surge, there is NO way, NOTHING you can say to yourself will make you able to turn it OFF at will. Nor will you be able to convince yourself to not be afraid of the terror!
You will HEAL when you stop GOING there in the first place.
You guys are too focused on trying to STOP the horrible feelings once they are flying full force. You can't. If it ever seems like you DO, it's an illusion. They were just abating anyway and you fooled yourself into thinking you "did it"
You cannot "have" a panic attack without PANICKING!
You cannot "have" feelings of unreality without feeling highly unreal.
You cannot "have" a loss of sense of self without being very freaked out by it!
So how do you stop yourself from getting to those horrible peaks and surges? You stop focusing on your own symptoms. you stop LOOKING at yourself like you're under a microscope. Naturally, you will still have anxiety and ruminating thoughts and dp and dr and all kinds of awful mind states for awhile - but you can FEEL the states and still not focus straight into the eye of them.
You keep yourself stuck EVERY SINGLE time you turn your focus inward - every single time you try to WIN in the battle over these mind states. It's not a Jedi battle where you can fight them head on. You defeat them by starvation, not by direct contact.If you turn your attention away, as much as humanly possible and yes, it is VERY hard - every single time you want to monitor yourself, every time you want to "check in" on yourself and observe closer and try to figure out why you're feeling this way, etc.....TURN AWAY from those powerful urges to self-investigate, then you will begin to recover. And if you can KEEP doing it, you will recover.
Will you stay recovered? I have no idea. Personally, I can't imagine how you could unless you do some indepth work on yourself in therapy and learn more about yourself and learn to really LOOK at reality and you and your place in it.....but that is the long and very time-consuming work ahead. That's how people STOP having breakdowns, and stop falling back into the pit.
But to climb out of the pit? STOP OBSERVING THE PIT.
Stop trying to win the battle, and instead, win the war.
Love ya,
Janine
p.s. and I was just like the "we" I describe above. I spent nearly 15 yrs. trying to do it my way. And what a sad waste of time.
But there is some truth in that title, because most of us have hopeless goals. We are stubborn and we are determined and we are desperate. And we will fail.
We WANT to finally get to the point where we can edge right up to the "OH MY GOD!" moment of abject terror - that moment where we feel each time 'this is it! I am really honestly going to lose control of myself in two seconds!!!!" - and be able to REALIZE in that moment that despite how it feels, we will be okay. We want to master it.
We want to be able to FEEL like we're right on the edge of total insanity and then TURN IT AROUND and be able to say 'now I understand...yes, that was only a thought and now I am in control of myself.."
That is how we WANT to recover. We want to master it.
However, that is not ever going to be possible.
NEVER.
Not ever.
Not today, or tomorrow or next year.
NOt with the "right meds' or the "right person" or the right attitude.
THAT IS NOT HOW THE MIND WORKS.
What you are chasing after is as ridiculous as if you were to say 'I want to heal my depression by realizing I don't need to be so SAD when I'm depressed."
IF you're IN it, you're IN IT. If you are having a massive anxiety surge, there is NO way, NOTHING you can say to yourself will make you able to turn it OFF at will. Nor will you be able to convince yourself to not be afraid of the terror!
You will HEAL when you stop GOING there in the first place.
You guys are too focused on trying to STOP the horrible feelings once they are flying full force. You can't. If it ever seems like you DO, it's an illusion. They were just abating anyway and you fooled yourself into thinking you "did it"
You cannot "have" a panic attack without PANICKING!
You cannot "have" feelings of unreality without feeling highly unreal.
You cannot "have" a loss of sense of self without being very freaked out by it!
So how do you stop yourself from getting to those horrible peaks and surges? You stop focusing on your own symptoms. you stop LOOKING at yourself like you're under a microscope. Naturally, you will still have anxiety and ruminating thoughts and dp and dr and all kinds of awful mind states for awhile - but you can FEEL the states and still not focus straight into the eye of them.
You keep yourself stuck EVERY SINGLE time you turn your focus inward - every single time you try to WIN in the battle over these mind states. It's not a Jedi battle where you can fight them head on. You defeat them by starvation, not by direct contact.If you turn your attention away, as much as humanly possible and yes, it is VERY hard - every single time you want to monitor yourself, every time you want to "check in" on yourself and observe closer and try to figure out why you're feeling this way, etc.....TURN AWAY from those powerful urges to self-investigate, then you will begin to recover. And if you can KEEP doing it, you will recover.
Will you stay recovered? I have no idea. Personally, I can't imagine how you could unless you do some indepth work on yourself in therapy and learn more about yourself and learn to really LOOK at reality and you and your place in it.....but that is the long and very time-consuming work ahead. That's how people STOP having breakdowns, and stop falling back into the pit.
But to climb out of the pit? STOP OBSERVING THE PIT.
Stop trying to win the battle, and instead, win the war.
Love ya,
Janine
p.s. and I was just like the "we" I describe above. I spent nearly 15 yrs. trying to do it my way. And what a sad waste of time.
21 - 40 of 49 Posts
enngirl,
It's confusing, I know, because we each get panic and DP at different times, but we agree they are connected.
I don't think Janine is saying "turn away" as much as she is saying "turn toward." When DP strikes, turn toward something other than how you feel.
The same thing holds for panic, don't run from it and don't face it, but float by it on your way toward something other than the fear. If you spend the $6 to buy Claire Weekes' book, Hope and Help for Your Nerves, you will not be sorry, and you will have a resource at your fingertips that you will treasure. She gives you more of the background and a wonderful reassurance. I highly recommend the book.
Does this help? I urge you to get that book. Amazon has it.
It's confusing, I know, because we each get panic and DP at different times, but we agree they are connected.
I don't think Janine is saying "turn away" as much as she is saying "turn toward." When DP strikes, turn toward something other than how you feel.
The same thing holds for panic, don't run from it and don't face it, but float by it on your way toward something other than the fear. If you spend the $6 to buy Claire Weekes' book, Hope and Help for Your Nerves, you will not be sorry, and you will have a resource at your fingertips that you will treasure. She gives you more of the background and a wonderful reassurance. I highly recommend the book.
Does this help? I urge you to get that book. Amazon has it.
You always help sojourner. You always get what I'm asking. Thanks. I'll go get that book. Add it to my collection of panic attack books, :wink: .
Glad to hear it! :lol:
Keep in mind that the book was written in 1969. It is recommended by physicians worldwide.
Because of its age, you may find things sound a bit outdated in parts, but that should only add a bit of charm to it!
This is also a book suitable for family members.
Keep in mind that the book was written in 1969. It is recommended by physicians worldwide.
Because of its age, you may find things sound a bit outdated in parts, but that should only add a bit of charm to it!
This is also a book suitable for family members.
G
im thinking therapy, but i could be wrong?kelson12 said:But how do we get to know ourselves??? How do I figure out what deep down pain is causing this??? How do I discover those self-lies, primitive defenses, etc. I understand that the symptoms are the cost of these things....but if I don't know what the self-lies, etc. are how do I confront them????JanineBaker said:Actually, I mostly agree with MonkeyDust there. I don't believe anyone NEEDS therapy (well, except maybe Martin, grin grin). There are always unique reasons, life situations, drug experiences, etc. that may have precipitated a person's DP experience - and for some people, resolving that particular trauma might be enough to prevent relapsing into mental symptoms down the line.
However, and yes, I am not a doctor, not even a therapist *quite yet (still in school), I cannot for the life of me see how anyone like ME, who had all kinds of murrmerings of distress all her life and then finally broke down totally, slowly pieced herself sort of back together, limped along, had another breakdown, then another - I don't see how a person like that could ever truly achieve freedom of mental torment without going to the root of the pain. I could be wrong. As Monkeyman said, CHANGE is needed. And that I agree with totally.
But I still maintain, despite those who disagree with me, these symptoms are for the most part created from self-lies, massive primitive defenses and from patterns of compulsions to repeat past unacknowledged pain. Most people who live with mental symptoms most of their lives do not know themselves welll - and the symptoms are the cost.
J
G
Wow. I had a panic attack earlier today, and I tried to pull out of it as it was happening. Needless to say, that didn't work.
Janine's first post was like a ray of light parting clouds. Your brain can't feel panic without being affected by the chemicals that produce that feeling, and if the chemicals are there, you can't pull out of it. Same with anxiety, and depression. An important realization for me.
Janine's first post was like a ray of light parting clouds. Your brain can't feel panic without being affected by the chemicals that produce that feeling, and if the chemicals are there, you can't pull out of it. Same with anxiety, and depression. An important realization for me.
here's an analogy:
are you the kind of person that says "I'm NOT going to [leave the house, get a job, achieve this or that goal, make friends] until the dp is gone!"
--------------
now imagine sitting in your room as a teenager when your first loser girl/boyfriend dumps you and you are saying "IM NOT LEAVING THIS ROOM UNTIL THEY COME BACK!"
wow, that would be, like, totally irrational. because you could be in there for a long time, miss out on a lot of hot dates, and...you would be slave to the whims of another person.
that person would control you wouldn't they?
----
so when you say you're not going to do this or that or you're not going to have fun until the dp is GONE, you're totally giving your control to an irrational force, that, like the boy or girlfriend, you have no control over and may never do what you will it to.
-----
maybe your dp is an analogy for your real life situations, where you REFUSE to do [this thing that thing] until the people around you change, until your enemies apologize or your lovers come back or what have you.
and maybe if you worked on THOSe attitudes, you Would see a difference in your dp. you maybe really really would.!
-------
oh, and with the above analogy between Dp'd you and the heartbroken teenager, don't you see the irrational reasoning there? by giving dp the power you're basically saying that "sitting here in the house will lead to a result of cure." now how do you figure? Or "If i can think it through enough i can beat it" sounds a bit magical there. have you ever been able to think your way out of a common cold? you would probably be miserable trying. That's actually the thing making you miserable, btw. Not the DP itself but the attempt to figure it out and cure it.
i get really miserable over past situations if i sit and THINK about them and analyze them. But when i go out to new places and meet people, i forget about those situations for long periods of time until they're way less important. same kind of principle.
are you the kind of person that says "I'm NOT going to [leave the house, get a job, achieve this or that goal, make friends] until the dp is gone!"
--------------
now imagine sitting in your room as a teenager when your first loser girl/boyfriend dumps you and you are saying "IM NOT LEAVING THIS ROOM UNTIL THEY COME BACK!"
wow, that would be, like, totally irrational. because you could be in there for a long time, miss out on a lot of hot dates, and...you would be slave to the whims of another person.
that person would control you wouldn't they?
----
so when you say you're not going to do this or that or you're not going to have fun until the dp is GONE, you're totally giving your control to an irrational force, that, like the boy or girlfriend, you have no control over and may never do what you will it to.
-----
maybe your dp is an analogy for your real life situations, where you REFUSE to do [this thing that thing] until the people around you change, until your enemies apologize or your lovers come back or what have you.
and maybe if you worked on THOSe attitudes, you Would see a difference in your dp. you maybe really really would.!
-------
oh, and with the above analogy between Dp'd you and the heartbroken teenager, don't you see the irrational reasoning there? by giving dp the power you're basically saying that "sitting here in the house will lead to a result of cure." now how do you figure? Or "If i can think it through enough i can beat it" sounds a bit magical there. have you ever been able to think your way out of a common cold? you would probably be miserable trying. That's actually the thing making you miserable, btw. Not the DP itself but the attempt to figure it out and cure it.
i get really miserable over past situations if i sit and THINK about them and analyze them. But when i go out to new places and meet people, i forget about those situations for long periods of time until they're way less important. same kind of principle.
Good to see you, person3. I've missed you. :lol:
It's the same thing with an ex boyfriend or girlfriend. As long as you randomly call them and see them, you're never gonna get over them. Everytime you see their face or hear their voice, all those feelings come back full force. But if you stop seeing them and talking to them, you start to forget them. You forget all those feelings, what they felt like, looked like, smelled like, how you felt with them. As time goes by, the pain becomes less and less until there is none anymore. I learned this trick a long time ago. It's a shame I can't learn it with the dp.
oh wow this exactly my problem... I don't want to live my life or get back to it if it feels like this... yet I realize part of getting well is doing just that... getting back to my life...person3 said:here's an analogy:
are you the kind of person that says "I'm NOT going to [leave the house, get a job, achieve this or that goal, make friends] until the dp is gone
rainboteers-
do you think THAT many people, dp'd or not, want to live their life? most people don't. but they do it anyway.
do you think THAT many people, dp'd or not, want to live their life? most people don't. but they do it anyway.
Person3,
Well I can only speak for myself, but before this happened I was very involved in and enjoyed living my life very much.
Now I feel so disconnected and depressed... I have basically went on strike thinking well if this is how I have to live then just forget it.
A childish and ineffective way at dealing with this I am aware, and I'm working on changing it.
Well I can only speak for myself, but before this happened I was very involved in and enjoyed living my life very much.
Now I feel so disconnected and depressed... I have basically went on strike thinking well if this is how I have to live then just forget it.
A childish and ineffective way at dealing with this I am aware, and I'm working on changing it.
was just about to ask that myself
I know the question was to rainboteers, but the more I ask myself this question......hmm. It really seems I have had some form of space-out, unreal, unhappy, trying to "fight" to get thru life "normally"..ALL my life. Only difference is that at some point I knew these things had names---depression, anxiety, depersonalizaion, fear, self-doubt, self-loathing...
Okay I will try and explain the best I can. Bear with me if this is confusing. I suppose it was a combination of things. I experienced something traumatic that I don't feel comfortable discussing. I was under a great deal of stress (which was my own fault). I took way to many hours in school, had a lot going on in my life and I was just stretched way to thin.
I have previously been through quite a bit of medical issues. I was diagnosed with psuedo tumor cerebri after a looooong time of feeling horrible and not knowing what was wrong with me.
After the trauma I was pretty depressed but I was getting through it. I went to the dr. for an appointment because I had been having a lot of headaches. After listening to my symptoms the dr. said I think you have an anxiety disorder. Well that was the last straw for me. I thought omg DISORDER. I can not go through anything esle. Trauma, medical issues, not a disorder too.
A few days later I was in class and I was thinking about what the dr. had said and I thought oh great watch me start having panic attacks. Then immediately I had one. :roll: Then I had more.
After a few panic attacks and just not dealing with the trauma properly everything started to feel really different to me. I looked in the mirror and felt like I was looking at a stranger. I couldnt connect with my own memories. Looking at pictures was odd as I felt like a different person. Like someone I no longer recognized. My friends and family felt distant and I couldnt connect with them either. I thought for sure I was losing my mind and I got extremely depressed. I have improved a little bit since it started but I'm still pretty miserable.
I have previously been through quite a bit of medical issues. I was diagnosed with psuedo tumor cerebri after a looooong time of feeling horrible and not knowing what was wrong with me.
After the trauma I was pretty depressed but I was getting through it. I went to the dr. for an appointment because I had been having a lot of headaches. After listening to my symptoms the dr. said I think you have an anxiety disorder. Well that was the last straw for me. I thought omg DISORDER. I can not go through anything esle. Trauma, medical issues, not a disorder too.
A few days later I was in class and I was thinking about what the dr. had said and I thought oh great watch me start having panic attacks. Then immediately I had one. :roll: Then I had more.
After a few panic attacks and just not dealing with the trauma properly everything started to feel really different to me. I looked in the mirror and felt like I was looking at a stranger. I couldnt connect with my own memories. Looking at pictures was odd as I felt like a different person. Like someone I no longer recognized. My friends and family felt distant and I couldnt connect with them either. I thought for sure I was losing my mind and I got extremely depressed. I have improved a little bit since it started but I'm still pretty miserable.
stop plugging that book geez
Why? It's a good book that might help people.
In that book does it mention anything worth noting in the feeling of unreality section?
21 - 40 of 49 Posts
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