lets disuss... DRUGS

2861 Views 10 Replies 6 Participants Last post by TDX, Jun 8, 2016

Anna Carly

Discussion Starter · Jun 7, 2016

I can appriciate people will disagree with drug taking after getting DP/DR and thats totally understandable as it is more than likley a step backwards when it comes to recovery and if this is you please refrain from hate commenting! Those who havent managed to shake the habit what are your views on the subject. Personally, i am never touching weed again as i think freaking out while eating edible cannabis in amsterdam had a small part to blame when it omes to my DP/DR. I used to do a lot of coke before i got this, and funny enough doing this gives me such relief it makes me feel alive, in the room and ike i can think clearly and not about my DP, jut connect with people. I have only done it 3 times in the 5 months i have had depersonalisation and have really had difficulty staying away from it but feel proud I have managed to cut down so much. I wonder if this has something to do with DP does anyone know what neurotransmitters coke plays with, dopamine? I read a forum once which said coke and stimulants work on dopamine and adrenaline and that plays a part for some people who may be low in it helping them and treatments like Wellbutrin would benefit them where as people who do well with weed and alcohol have a serotonin problem and SSRIS would help them. I'm really confused as to what neurotransmitters are not behaving in my brain and how I should be addressing this!!! I find when I drink alcohol I feel more detached like my legs are made of jelly and people are monsters and I just feel seriously stoned but the coke seems to sort me out. I have stayed away from MDMA and anything else along those lines for I also read tht could have been the cause of my visual snow and, I know they would definitely not help me. Whats everyones thoughts on this???? Do you have a drug that helps/worsens your DP or anyone know much about the neurotransmitters?

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Anna Carly

Discussion Starter · #2 · Jun 7, 2016

King Elliot- Wow! You are very clued up that was a very interesting reply! I didn't realise how many different receptors there were for dopamine and serotonin etc looks like its not going to be as simple as I thought to find the right treatment etc!!!! you say dopamine has the same mechanism of action as methylphenidate what kind of treatments would mimic this? and what would you say the most successful one is, obviously everyones dp is different but what has worked/not worked for you. I feel like since we both had a bad expeiance with cannabis we may have done similar damage to our neurotransmitters. I am currently on Lamical 200mg and feel confident that with time I may see some result since it is a mood stabiliser hopefully fixing whatever imbalance there is am I correct in that? (sorry I probably sound pretty stupid I'm not as clued up as you seem to be but trying my best to understand)

As for the panic attack on weed I can totally relate its funny thinking back now I to thought I was going to die, we were staying on a canalboat just outside Amsterdam I had smoked a lot in the past and thought eating a cake would be easy and not affect me- I was wrong! I ended up getting a taxi back to boat alone feeling ike I was on a full on acid trip I lay down and had to search on youtube 'I'm having a panic attack' and 'how to calm down on a bad trip' I was trying to call a paramedic and then I freaked out so much I ould hardly walk I crawled cross the boat in the dark and trid knocking on the neighbouring boats door for help, thankfully they weren't in I crawled back and lay in despairfor the remaining hours of feeling fucked and spent the rest o the trip feeling like a ghost haha!!!

Autonomic space monkey- interesting reply! would you say your dp seemed to improve after stopping the drugs or no different? I can agree th after effects of taking drugs aren't worth dealing wit for the few hours of normality. I wish I coul stop at two cans, I tend to feel very anxious after a few drinks so I think stuff it I'm going to get smashed and forget about everything!!!

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Alex617

· #3 · Jun 7, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

Hey buddy, in regards to dopamine, the only time I've felt normal in the last year or so was when I did a few lines of cocaine so I do agree there might be a usefulness for certain 'hard' drugs. What do you think of this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27189960

When given acutely, both ketamine and LY341495, but not the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) citalopram, increased the number of spontaneously active dopamine neurons in the ventral tegmental area (VTA), increased extracellular levels of dopamine in the nucleus accumbens and prefrontal cortex, and enhanced the locomotor stimulatory effects of the dopamine D2/3 receptor agonist quinpirole[/size]

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TDX

· #4 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

As for causing it, I'm not so sure. It may be that a history of heavy regular dopaminergic drug use could predispose a person to DP. One of my pet theories is that chronic use of stimulants causes kappa opioid receptor upregulation that might predispose someone to DP -- or perhaps even cause it beyond a certain point.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, as dopaminergics are not really that known to cause depersonalization, like serotonergics, NMDA-Antagonists and kappa-opioid-agonists. Dopaminergics are more linked to psychosis.

(low dopamine in particular but I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that DP sufferers have high levels of PFC dopamine and low levels of dopamine in sub-cortical structures

It's interesting that antipsychotics often make depersonalization worse, but it's probably not so simple, because antipsychotics alone don't cause depersonalization. Maybe it does in combination with another drug that we don't know, just like mCPP. It has been shown that mCPP causes depersonalization in people with mental illness, but not in healthy people. But it does so, if healthy people take a benzodiazepine antagonist before.

It should also be noted, that in the NMDA-Antagonist-Model antipsychotics do not make the depersonalization worse. Because of this I conjectured that Lamotrigine does not work for poeple, who get worse by taking an antipsychotic.

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Zed

· #5 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

Anna Carly said:
I can appriciate people will disagree with drug taking after getting DP/DR and thats totally understandable as it is more than likley a step backwards when it comes to recovery and if this is you please refrain from hate commenting! Those who havent managed to shake the habit what are your views on the subject. Personally, i am never touching weed again as i think freaking out while eating edible cannabis in amsterdam had a small part to blame when it omes to my DP/DR. I used to do a lot of coke before i got this, and funny enough doing this gives me such relief it makes me feel alive, in the room and ike i can think clearly and not about my DP, jut connect with people. I have only done it 3 times in the 5 months i have had depersonalisation and have really had difficulty staying away from it but feel proud I have managed to cut down so much. I wonder if this has something to do with DP does anyone know what neurotransmitters coke plays with, dopamine? I read a forum once which said coke and stimulants work on dopamine and adrenaline and that plays a part for some people who may be low in it helping them and treatments like Wellbutrin would benefit them where as people who do well with weed and alcohol have a serotonin problem and SSRIS would help them. I'm really confused as to what neurotransmitters are not behaving in my brain and how I should be addressing this!!! I find when I drink alcohol I feel more detached like my legs are made of jelly and people are monsters and I just feel seriously stoned but the coke seems to sort me out. I have stayed away from MDMA and anything else along those lines for I also read tht could have been the cause of my visual snow and, I know they would definitely not help me. Whats everyones thoughts on this???? Do you have a drug that helps/worsens your DP or anyone know much about the neurotransmitters?

There're a lot of people in this world who self medicate. For me the question is why do people feel the need to escape their reality? What is it in their lives that they are escaping from? Anything from drinking alcohol, smoking pot, using coke, meth, barbs, heroin, opium, acid, etc etc, to taking mind altering pharmaceuticals, ultimately it all achieves the same thing - detachment from reality. And to me that poses the biggest question of them all - why can't we cope with our own realities?

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Zed

· #6 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

This is merely theoretical. Be careful not to make universal assumptions.

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TDX

· #7 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

But chronic use of dopaminergic drugs causes upregulation of kappa receptors, which mediates the properties of dependence and addiction. It seems perfectly reasonable to suggest that heavy long-term use of such drugs would increase vulnerability to DP through a kappa-mediated mechanism. Sure, dopaminergics are linked particularly to acute psychotic episodes but I'm talking about a long-term process with the kappa system.

Yes it's plausible. But the point I want to make: There is, at least to my knowledge, no evidence yet, that this kappa-upregulation, that is taking in addiction, causes depersonalization. It would be a good idea to investigate if former cocaine addicts are more prone to depersonalization.

This may well be part of what happened to me. I was using dopaminergic stimulants everyday for years when I got DP. It was a slow onset, which makes sense in terms of increasing kappa sensitisation. Of course, it could've been related to dopamine downregulation as well but dopaminergic drugs do nothing to alleviate my DP.

Have you increased your Buprenorphine dosage to a high enough? You are taking it for months, there have to be some results.

There're a lot of people in this world who self medicate. For me the question is why do people feel the need to escape their reality? What is it in their lives that they are escaping from? Anything from drinking alcohol, smoking pot, using coke, meth, barbs, heroin, opium, acid, etc etc, to taking mind altering pharmaceuticals, ultimately it all achieves the same thing - detachment from reality. And to me that poses the biggest question of them all - why can't we cope with our own realities?

It's often more about hedonism and thrill seeking, not to escape.

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luctor et emergo

· #8 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

TDX said:
Yes it's plausible. But the point I want to make: There is, at least to my knowledge, no evidence yet, that this kappa-upregulation, that is taking in addiction, causes depersonalization. It would be a good idea to investigate if former cocaine addicts are more prone to depersonalization.

As an ex-chonic weekend user from 2002 to 2008 (with some pauses for a few months and sometimes while on medication...) I experienced a clearer mind while under the influence of cocaine, but 95% of the time I was excessively drinking alcohol with it, thus my thoughts became somewhat clouded again.

So while cocaine also helped with social anxiety (the drug induced dialogues) + made you numb to pain (I once missstepped, ripped the ligaments of my left-ankle and still partied on...) and gave short-term bursts of energy, the effect on the VISUAL abnormalities of dpd, drd (the feeling of being in a movie, behind glass and the general dissociating of reality) stayed the same.

The hangovers on Sunday where terrible, getting out of bed was a task in itself + anxiety doubled in intensity + the fact cocaine is highly addictive. I would not recommed it's use to alleviate dpd, drd.

I'm pretty sure some oxidative stress has occured, what I don't know if Kappa receptors have been affected. Maybe Elliott with two T´s or TDX can give some insights.

edit: currently on Lamotrigine 500mg/d + Prozac 60mg/d, no effect whatsoever.

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Anna Carly

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jun 8, 2016

Autonomic Space Monkey said:
Unfortunately my DPD/DP/DR did not improve once I stopped. But my HPPD did gradually start to fade over time, & I consider it to be only mild these days. That said, I never have to put up with the awful come downs & hangovers anymore! Besides, I'm constantly DP'd which is kind of like being high anyway, so I don't need drugs to be a space monkey these days (as my username implies).

That is interesting, the main part of my DP is definitely HPPD symptoms constantly, it is good to know your faded over time from refraining from drugs etc, I shall just keep trying! Haha, I know the feeling I too feel my symptoms constantly it's like a never ending cannabis trip! Love the name. Thanks for the reply

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eddy1886

· #10 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

My story is very similar to Space Monkeys....Honestly even though I still have DP one of the best things I ever did to improve my condition was to quit all illegal drugs, quit smoking cigarettes and stop drinking alcohol completely....

Its bad enough dealing with DP but add addictions to that and you are fighting a totally loosing battle...

Alcoholics Anonymous saved my life as regards my addictions to alcohol and drugs and inadvertently thought me about who I really am, the type of person I am and also helped me to deal with my mental health issues much better...

My theory and its just my personal opinion is that by using illegal drugs and alcohol we stunt our psychological and spiritual growth which is seriously bad for people like us with mental health issues....I believe all DP sufferers are mentally stunted (we basically dissociate to avoid pain and suffering) Its a very slow process but to recover in any way we need to gradually reintroduce ourselves to pain and teach ourselves how to deal with it properly (but vey very gently)

Just my own personal experience and I KNOW we are all different....

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TDX

· #11 · Jun 8, 2016 (Edited by Moderator)

Something interesting and related: the hallucinogenic properties of 5-HT2A agonists might be glutamate-mediated after all -- specifically by mGlu2 receptors.

I know. Interesting is also that Acetylcystein, which might be a mGlu2-agonist, was able to block the effects of LSD.

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