[Milan]

I'm writing this post targeting Janine but I placed it here so that those who are having a similar experience may find some benefit from these words.

I really want this post to start a thread where Janine can help out with problems that people have on there journey to recovery.

Janine I recently bought your ebook and have read mostly the parts that suggest what you should do to get better. Great book and I recommend it to others on this board.

A quick introduction. I have been having what I suppose you could label as Anxiety/DP/DR disorder for about 2 years. It first struck my when I was on a meditation retreat two years ago. I left after experiencing very strange negative states. Those awful experiences lasted about 5-6 months then dissipated. About a year ago my son woke me early one morning and whilst trying to get to sleep again I had an anxiety attack and unfortunately the feelings came back and I have been battling them since. Got really bad about Xmas time including bad head and chest pains and then I went and saw a psych. He put me on an SSRI which helped me sleep and got rid of the chest and head aches but the CBT seems to have hit a brick wall. At this point I'm feeling very anxious, scared, confused, tired, helpless and sad whilst I spend most of the time battling my mind and only managing to live my life.

I'm writing because I need hope and strength to get through this insidious condition quickly . I probably speak on behalf of a most of the people on this board. Janine because you have gone through this illness I respect your words more so than any other person even if they mean well.

I need to quickly express a couple of symptoms that bother me the most. One is the derealisation. I thought when my head ache and chest pains passed that the feeling of derealisation would also go. But even with a clear head the feeling still comes. I could be coping well then with out thinking and instantly I become overly aware of my surroundings, but in a negative way. In that instant it's like I've noticed the material reality around me for the first time, every thing is recognisable but very odd, strange and very frightening. The anxiety then hits like a lighting bolt and then suddenly nothing makes sense, I lose all grounding and sense of self. Then I'm stuck in this terrible strange altered state of unreality and anxiety. There are many other bothering symptoms and I could spend pages writing about them but ultimately it leads to that God awful feeling where every mental construct of my reality is shattered, and it pains me. It's like I have seen/experienced something that I never should have and now the mind can't settle back into it's normal default state. It's as if I'm afraid of the normal human experience.

Unfortunately I have dissected every thing that makes up my reality which includes my perception of my surroundings, my mind, thoughts, feelings, mental processing, body mind relationship, automatic functioning etc - you all know what I'm talking about. I sometimes convinced that I won't get well because I feel that I've conditioned my mind to readily and unintentionally focus on these states that I've mentioned. When I try not to focus on these things then there is this underlying current of fear which stays with me most of the time. But if I check to see what is bothering me I notice the fear increasing in intensity. I'm trapped.

It's not all doom and gloom. At times when I feel grounded for a few moments and see my wife and child I get those warm fuzzy - I'm real feelings and it's absolutely sublime, I just wish it could happen more often and stay.

Your book has reinforced the fact that only outward actions will fix this problem just like my psych has said. I believe this to be true but a little guidance and reassurance along would help to expedite the recovery.

A question to start the thread:

How do I get past the brick wall I've hit with the CBT? I have a lot of trouble controlling the anxiety. My psych has said that until you believe that nothing will happen to you, you will never get better. I know that, but each time I notice any feelings of unreality, automatic functioning, strangeness of existence/self etc the fear comes back strong each time I don't seem to be able to conquer that (you described a similar experience in your book). I think he is probably going to try different meds but I don't know if this will help as it seems to be more of a mental thing with me.

Basically the question I'm asking is how do you conquer the fear?

Also do you know of any good psychs in this field in Sydney Australia.

Sorry for the long disjointed post but I'm keen to integrate my self.

Kind Regards

Milan

 

[Guest]

It wasn't disjointed at all (your words) even though I know YOU feel disjointed. That was always amazing to me, that I could sound so together when I truly felt like I was seconds away from total insanity.

Here's the bad news, grin. I NEVER reached a point where I didn't fear the symptoms. I tried. For most of my life, I tried...but every single time those powerful feelings of unreality hit, I was as helpless and as petrifed as the first time I ever felt them.

That's the nature of the animal. We FEEL terrified because the feelings of dp and dr are by nature, creations of the mind that are designed BY THE MIND to separate us from our sense of reality. If you are NOT afraid of them, I'd go so far as to say that it's a very different "flavor" of dp/dr than I ever experienced.

But...you do not actually have to "make peace" with them to get rid of them.

For me, the process was multi-fold. I did heavy duty work on longterm depth therapy (for me, psychoanalytic therapy, but it need not be THAT intense, just intense enough). Once I was able to unlock some of the more "ordinary" fears and obsessions that I'd been living with all my life, the shifts that produced inside my sense of self took away the worst of the symptoms. It sounds so obtuse, but the gist of it for me was this:

I had caused my breakdown, and anxiety and obsessiveness and dp and dr out of trying to live SO hidden from myself, so guarded against many thoughts and feelings. The symptoms were a natural outgrowth of a person who was hanging by a thread of reality anyway - but didn't realize it, or more to the point, never wanted to know.

My personality was a mess, lol....I fluctuated from thinking I was absolutely extraordinary, capable of Greatness, and Destined for greatness - to suddenly plummeting into the depths of self-hatred and total self-disgust. I hated my humanity and loved my "Specialness' - and lived trying to build up fantasies about the one and hide from the other.

That is the VERy short version. In therapy, I was able to (forced to, lol) face much more reality than I ever thought possible. THAT process, the slow examining of how I had constructed a self-image based on lies and fears, that is what made the symtpoms obsolete.

My "focus outward" advice is for the worst of times. As I started to feel more grounded and recover from the horrors, those dp and dr states would STILL rear their heads nearly daily. At those times, I finally learned to FORCE myself not to examine them. I was still terrifief of them, and sometimes had to race back home, lie to people about how I was feeling, etc...the same ol' crap. But once I got home, I did NOT examine the thoughts or sensations. It is the hardest thing you will ever do, but you must FORCE your attention totally away from yourself and your symptoms.

We all try that and quickly say "well, that's lovely, but that doesn't work!" Well, no. It doens't work at first. Or second. It works SLOWLY, over time, as you stop DEALING with the symptoms. We have no choice but to feel them when they come over us. But where we do the damage and sink them in stone is when we TURN INWARD and examine and observe and "watch" ourselves constantly, assessing this moment of symptom versus yesterday's symptom. And we try to form patterns or theories for why this particular bad moment appeared. We are paying attention to them. CANNOT do that and expect to get better.

But...that is very very different from saying you have to not fear them. I never surmounted my fear of them. Never. I just forced my attention away from them, against all impulse, and kept forcing my attention away minute by minute. Some days it was easier, some harder...I kept doing it.

You cannot get well while WATCHING your symptoms or trying to "figure them out" directly.

Work on other aspects of yourself and when they do their worst, FORCE your mental energies anywhere but on self.

I wish I did know someone good to recommend in Australia, but maybe someone else will suggest.

Anway, hope this helps a bit and VERy glad to know my book was useful to you.

All the best,
Janine

 

[ret]

How can I get your book janine?

EDIT: Is there any other way other than through amazon?

 

[rainboteers]

I just bought the book on http://www.amazon.com

 

[enigma]

I just bought the book on http://www.amazon.com

Hey, Janine's books are available on the U.S. Amazon.com now (I just ordered "Unraveling").

Thanks Rainbo!

e

 

[rainboteers]

No problem

 

[Sojourner]

Janine,

My therapist, who is trained in psychoanalysis, thinks that I want a penis. I am not aware of any such desire -- either now or ever in the past, although I did have a dream once where I had one.

I find the above downright silly, frankly, but my therapist seems otherwise qualified. I haven't a clue whether to stop seeing her or not. I've stayed with the same therapist for more than 10 years.

Any thoughts?

Sojourner

 

[Ben]

Sojourner,

Psychoanalysis is stupid and should have died with the dinosaurs. Freud had some interesting theories and made a lot of people think but rarely solved anything in my opinion. I have two friends who are getting their PhDs in the field of psychology and so I have met a lot of individuals in tht world and most people with training in psychoanalysis are pie-in-the-sky nutjobs. I have very, very little respect for that branch of therapy. You give them a question and they give you another question or an answer that is so broad that it can be read like a damn fortune cookie - how is that solving anything?

Let's say that you do want a Penis? What would Freud say? Well, I doubt that he could come up with anything ultra-constructive from that thought other than you want a Penis. How is that helpful? How is that constructive? If you get a Penis is your world going to make more sense? Why would it be bad or good to have a Penis? So you date someone that reminds who of your dad - who gives a crap? I think the whole thing is nutty and basically exists for job security amongst psychoanalysts. This person is going to take you down a dozen ratholes and end up wasting a lot of money for you...find yourself a more rational therapist and get on with your life.

In my honest opinion, I have never read anything from Freud, Jung, etc. that someone else couldn't have simply made up. Smart people with way too much time and way too much utilization in modern-day therapy.

What kind of therapist would leave you with the thought that you want a Penis and have you believe that gives you any constructive bearing on your state within the physical world in which you live?

 

[enigma]

I've always capitalized the word "Penis".

e

 

[rainboteers]

What I would like to know is why they are so obsessed with sex? I went to a freudian-type therapist. He came highly recommended and I drove 6 hours to see him. I stayed in a hotel for 2 weeks to have 8 sessions with him. All the man talked about was sex. How it related to this problem and that problem. At first I thought he was joking, but he wasn't. Really creeped me out because he wanted very intimate details about my sex life. I don't know if they are all quacks but that one was. The sad part is he is very popular and has tons of clients. Weird. :shock:

I don't think it was right of your therapist to put that thought into your head either, just gave your anxious mind something else to worry about. You have been with her for 10 years. I would say you gave her more than a fair try and if she is not helping move on.

 

[Ben]

enigma - do you have Penis envy or something - geez!

 

[Sojourner]

Hi, Ben,

Thanks for your comment. One of Freud's ideas is that all girl children go through an infantile stage of "penis envy." Now, maybe it's true. But if it's unconscious, I don't know about it, and saying I am still suffering from the "complex" doesn't help.

I am sure that the unconscious exists, though.

Perhaps I exaggerate the importance of her saying that, though. I did have that dream. But who knows why? If we dream in archetypes, then perhaps it was just a symbol of "power."

I guess my point is -- even if it's true, how does it affect me now? Maybe I need to put that question to her more clearly next week.

Meanwhile, I seem to be realizing that this is a psychological illness, probably predominantly, so as soon as I stabilize, I will ask my doctor about reducing the Zoloft. Not that I have any side effects, but if the Zoloft is masking any feelings, psychotherapy will be less effective.

I have had a breakthrough over the last several days. I actually had an attack that went away. That was the first that I lived through without taking Ativan after at least several hours.

Lord have mercy.

B. or S. or Q. or L.

 

[Sojourner]

Rainboteers,

Actually, *I* must have brought it up. I am single, never married, and I remember that dream from maybe 8 years ago. Frankly, I think I just wanted a man to love. ; )

So, she didn't plant the idea in my mind -- I brought it up.

 

[enigma]

enigma - do you have Penis envy or something - geez!

Thought that was something only girls got (at least, according to the highly questionable Dr Freud, anyway), LOL!

e

 

[rainboteers]

I see...

I have noticed that sometimes therapy works against people though. For instance my anxiety didn't get outta control until I was told I had an anxiety DISORDER. Suddenly everything changed and I was very upset. I was labeled, diagnosed and put in a box. Now I can't find my way back out.

The point I am trying to make is that they can have a powerful influence on your thoughts because we count on them to help us figure out what the hell is going on with us. I hope that made some sense. Gettin kinda tired.

Does penis envy mean that we are jealous of guys because we think they have it easier, or does it mean that we are jealous of their actual penis? I find the latter of the two ridiculous.

 

[Sojourner]

Don't worry -- men get to have the "castration complex"!!

The notion that little girls see they are "missing" a body part is what's behind it. I don't think I knew about that before I was 5, though. I was the youngest of five girls and I never saw my father naked! LOL.

So I didn't even KNOW I was "missing" anything...

S.

 

[rainboteers]

Oh your kidding? I have a least heard of penis envy, but castration complex? What is that? Are they afraid it will be taken away? Maybe there are some people who really suffer from this so I am trying not to make light of it, but I think these "complexes" are a complete waste of time. At least guys have something too, I was begining to think it was awful unfair. :lol:

Still it all revolves around the penis. If you have one you are scared it will be taken away, if you don't have one you are jealous. If you ask me Frued was just in love with his penis.

 

[Guest]

Oh, dear Lord, lol?.Milan asks some great questions, I post a nice reply, several people give me some wonderful Book publicity, I go to bed and then by morning the thread has devolved into a Penis Journal, lolol

Okay, here?s the thing about psychoanalysis and Le Penis. Soujourner, I have no idea HOW your analyst broached that topic with you, lol..but it sure sounds like it was sadly lacking context.

Technically, you guys are correct in that the ?penis envy? ideas sound absurd, but there is a kind of ?shorthand? (no organ irony intended) that is used in psychoanalysis (usually from analyst to analyst though) that involves the developmental phase of ?a child becoming aware of sexual differences,? etc. Sometimes the root of a neurotic pattern is based, not in LITERAL wishing-for-a-man?s-penis, but in the symbol of what it represents. If a woman has tremendous conflict around her own aggressive and ambitious impulses ? wants to succeed, to be recognized, to be independent, to be powerful, etc. and AT THE SAME TIME feels enormous guilt or shame over not being submissive, or feels afraid of retaliation ? those kinds of hidden patterns can dictate a personality type. And inside that personality type might lie someone who is ?at war? with life. Wanting to HAVE and afraid to pursue. The ?symbol? around it all, in psychoanalytic language, might involve the penis and what it STANDS for in terms of potency or power.

It also might involve conficts we have with parental authority or the role of our mother - not wanting to surpass her (and at the same time, very much wanting to surpass her, etc., and the unspoken fears that IF we do, we'll lose her love. That can translate into fearing that if we become the powerful Male Role we secretly desire, no one will love us, as if it's an either/or. So we "hide" our penis ambitions, lol....to keep seducing love out of other people, fooling them into thinking we're more submissive and benign than we wish we were - the key here is the FOOLING part, i.e., we can't even trust the love we do get because we believe it's based on a mask.

It?s not even 6 in the morning here, and I think it?s too early for me to try to describe this, lol?.

But psychoanalysis is NOT about this, lol?it?s really a way of learning about the unconscious motivations we all have, learning to recognize what drives an individual, to ?make the unconscious conscious? and to ultimately come to terms with reality in all its good and bad. The premise being that most people spend their lives HIDING from more reality than they digest, and their defenses used to successfully hide and lie to themselves are the root of much pain.

Again, too early for me to be cogent. Just let the penis continue.
LOL,
Janine

 

[Sojourner]

Janine,

Sorry for apparently hijacking your wonderful response. I found it very helpful. It's amazing to me that in the course of a few days I've changed my thinking about my illness. I am so grateful to whoever runs this site. Who *does* run it, by the way?

Thank you for responding yet again.

What you say makes sense, and I wrote something about "power" earlier, as well.

Again, my therapist is innocent of introducing the subject; it was I who had a dream that I had one and told her about it (some years ago).

I have to talk to her about this and clear it up. Maybe I need to bring a new attitude toward my therapy. I thought I had insight into myself, but perhaps I don't. I thought I understood my motivations and my defenses, but perhaps I am kidding myself. I'm going to talk to my therapist about setting some goals for the therapy and see how that works out. I've been doing some reading on this site, which I found quite helpful:

http://www.aboutpsychotherapy.com/

------------

Janine, are you the poet from Australia?

S. (I keep starting to sign with my real initial)

 

[ret]

you're not very good at selling your book janine