[Brainsilence02]

I have grown up in a family of Christians but not a pressing family. In time, I found that world was better explained without the existance of god.

I have some proof (which will, most possibly have been covered by other beafore me) that god doesn't exist. The point is: is it morally correct to post it here?

I know that there are people who would feel their life has no more sence if god didn't exist. But there might be others who would like to exchange opinions.

I am asking help from a Moderator to tell me what is right to do. I would really like some civilized dialogue around the issue.

 

[Guest]

If people don't like it they don't have to read it - you've just warned them in your post. I'd like to see it.

 

[Homeskooled]

Dear Brainsilence,
That's a thoughtful spin on the subject. It shows that you have a well-formed conscience. My answer would be that it is entirely up to what you see as the correct thing to do. As long as it isn't insulting to anyone, I can't objectively delete it. Will it harm someone psychologically if you obliterate their belief in God? Well, first of all, there has never been a proof for God's existence that has completely obliterated atheism, nor a proof against God which has completely obliterated beleivers. I dont think that the subject is easily wrapped up in words. What you are pondering has probably been pondered before. The second, more pertinent question is, is what you are about to write going to weaken a belief which strengthens someone's already tenuous hold on reality? This is where your conscience, and your decision, comes into play. There is the biblical quote that the truth shall set you free - you might interpret that to mean that we are better off rid of any delusions we have, and should be ready for our beliefs to be challenged. But there is another, lesser known passage, where St. Paul also tells his Christian followers to follow some pagan customs if it makes their hosts more comfortable. In other words, it's more important to respect others' religious sensibilities when we can. If it makes you feel better, you might as well post it. I have a feeling that those who are uncomfortable with religion don't venture into this section very often.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[Martinelv]

In other words, it's more important to respect others' religious sensibilities when we can

Does religion deserve respect by default ? I thought respect had to be earnt ?

 

[Brainsilence02]

I am under serious thought of posting this or not.

In other words, it's more important to respect others' religious sensibilities when we can

Does religion deserve respect by default ? I thought respect had to be earnt ?

Yes, I believe that it does. Because people find a peace to it. They feel secure. This is, I think, the most important reason for religion's existance.

 

[Scattered]

I doubt you could post anything thats going to sway anyone's opinion. The nonbelievers are set in there ways and likewise for the believers. You've given adequate warning for the easily offended so theres no harm in speaking your mind.

 

[rainboteers]

I am a spirtual person, but I think you should feel free to post whatever you want. I believe in God, but not in the tradition sense. I also feel that it doesn't matter all that much if you believe or not. I guess my point is a spirtual person should not be offended because if they have learned anything from religion it should be that people have their own path for a reason. If we all believed the same things we would have absolutely nothing to learn, and that would kind of defeat the whole purpose of living. Just my opinion. You sure wouldn't offend me. I think it is very cool that you are trying to respect others, but remember that respect works both ways. People who differ from your opinion should respect you as well.

 

[Martinelv]

Yes, I believe that it does. Because people find a peace to it. They feel secure. This is, I think, the most important reason for religion's existance.

Really ? Even though this drug, sorry - religion has (and continues to cause) caused untold billions of death, persecution and suffering from the year dot. Religion, or the consequences of those who adhere to it, has caused more death and misery then anquish than drugs, alcohol, disease, illness, homophobia, suicide, science, the degredation of women, abortion, the suffering of the terminally ill, hunger, povery, undesireables, and just about anything to care to think about, put together !! If religion were suddenly discovered today, it would be a Class 'A' drug. Like like drugs, if you 'snorted' reigion in private to gain a little peace, I'm sure people would turn a blind eye - and good for them. Glad for them. Bully for theese few who gain 'peace' . Honestly glad. Pity these people don't think of the big picture - the supposed defenders of the human race - if they'd only we'd have a toke of their religion we'd be SAVED. Perhaps we should again send out those indomitable ladies of the early 20th century to far flung corners of africa to provide food and water as long as they prostrated themselves at the foot of 'christ' while destroying their indidgenous culture.

The watered down religions of the west are now desperatly trying to be all lovey-feeling about these heinous doctrines...three steps back, one step forward..........whoa........watch you don't fall they don't fall off the cliff edge. PEACE ? Peace for who ? Those who can afford it or stupid (yes stupid) to believe the rot in the bible ?

:shock:

 

[Brainsilence02]

When done properly, religion is a good thing. There are better religions than Christendom, like Asian ones. There are great beatiful theories that can give some people relaxation.

Religion is not bad itself, it's just that people use it badly because it was such a great influence.

I am processing my "proof" post. I have changed my mind about how it must be articulated. I will post it soon.

 

[Martinelv]

If you're making the distinction between personal faith and organised dogmatic religion, then yes, I'm sure it's (mostly) a good thing. But organised religion is the most destructive force on this planet. One word from the pope on contraception would kill more people than our entire nuclear arsenal. And it's a good thing ? And keep in mind this happens every day....

And who decides how it's 'used properly' ? We've had 3000+ years of trying to get it right, intrepreting it as times and whimsy change, and the best we've got is ordained women priests in some of the more liberal parishes. Well knock me down with a feather. What staggering progress.

I am processing my "proof" post.

Good luck to you. If you succeed, you'll get the Nobel prize.

 

[Homeskooled]

Hmmm.....Martin, why is personal religion suddenly "better"? Just because you get to make up your own morals, like atheists, we're suddenly going to do away with evil and genocide? I guess I can see your point. If only Mao had been an atheist, there wouldnt have been the Cultural Revolution in China, and subsequent genocide. Oh, wait, I'm sorry he was an atheist. Guess that proves atheism wrong. After all, if people of relgion commit genocides, that means God doesnt exist, right? I'm trying to keep up with your dizzying leaps of logic. Let me know if I missed a link in the chain.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[grandma-stole-my-wheels]

toast! 8)

 

[Martinelv]

Homeskooled, don't take deliberately take my words out of context. It doesn't suit you. It's better if you keep to being fluently spontaneous.

What I said....exaggerated sigh, was that personal religion, i.e., a individuals 'personal' faith which does not impact adversely on anyone else's life, is fine. Good. A wonderful thing if it makes them happy. I'll dance at their wedding. Organised religion, in all forms, by it's very nature, is bad....ooooh...very bad. The evidence is all around us...not to mention to trials of history. Where is the faulty logic here?

I'm not going to comment on the rest of what you said, because it's silly. And you know it.

I find it interesting that you are always implying (cough!) that atheists are immoral, and that you don't need to defend your religion. Indeed, religion is above criticism so it seems. Considering that atheism is simply a lack of theism, hence I have no point to defend, why is that ?

 

[Homeskooled]

I'm not going to comment on the rest of what you said, because it's silly. And you know it.

Well, that was the point. Its not exactly up to the standards of the BBC to compare Ortho Tricyclen to a nuclear holocaust, either, Martin. :wink:

But if you keep impugning a belief system on the basis of actions which people who hold your beliefs also commit, that tends to sound a little silly, or at least self-defeating too. And what you hold is a belief. Anarchists beleive in a lack of government. There are lots and lots of books and websites detailing the thought and philosophy behind anarchy. I've never heard someone postulate that it is a "lack" of a belief, because of course, their position wouldnt hold up to scrutiny then. There are lots and lots of books on the philosophies informing atheists. I'd like to hear why genocides have been committed in its name. You can start with church purges in Russia, or the Cultural Revolution in China. Mexico early in the century is also another excellent example, as well as Vietnam. You dont have to, of course, since it wont really prove anything. Just because the believer is faulty doesnt mean the belief is. Its just it would behoove you to understand how your belief, or its followers, have affected human history, before slinging the mud. Because if you dont, your comparisons might seem, well, silly.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[Martinelv]

But if you keep impugning a belief system on the basis of actions which people who hold your beliefs also commit, that tends to sound a little silly

I never have. I am talking about organised religion, not an individuals personal faith.

However, your implication seems to be that all atheists are immoral and, given the chance, would ideally create and live in a savage communist regime which a leader who would make Pol-Pot look like Mother Theresa? Yes? Whereas I know that the vast majority of people with personal faith are nice people, you seem unable to accept that even a single atheist is anything other than a serial killer, just because he/she lacks your theism. Extraordinary.

And what you hold is a belief.

Wrong. I do not 'believe' that god exists, I simply lack the belief. There is a difference. Atheism itself is not a 'belief system', despite what you like to think.

I've never heard someone postulate that it is a "lack" of a belief, because of course, their position wouldnt hold up to scrutiny then

Exactly, because you don't understand what Atheism is. Or can't. Or won't. Probably all three.

Its just it would behoove you to understand how your belief, or its followers, have affected human history, before slinging the mud

I think if we're descending to the level of playing the numbers game, I'd wager that religion has, and continues to, cause vastly more suffering than atheism ever has, or will. You're memory only seems to extend back to the turn of last century, and conveniently forgets the previous 3000 years. Besides, that's not the point. Atheism itself - A-THEISM, LACK OF-BELIEF, doesn't kill, maim, or prejudice anyone. Atheism has nothing to say on homosexuality, female rights, human rights, contraception - it leaves it to the judgement of the individual and society, just as it should. It is simply a lack of belief in 'god/s'. There is no atheist dogma that dictates how one should behave, under threat of eternal damnation. It's just too convenient for you to confuse, say, communist politics with atheism as a tool to justify the supposed libertines ALL atheists are.

 

[agentcooper]

martin, i dated an atheist for a very long time and am still really good friends with him. he always told me that there were two different kinds of atheists: the atheists who lack the belief in god and the atheists who believe that there is no god. if that were true, wouldn't there be atheists who do have a belief system?

and just a side note for homeskooled, he is one of the most moral and good people i have ever known. he has a much stronger code of ethics than most religious people i know.

 

[grandma-stole-my-wheels]

boast! 8)

 

[Guest]

boast! 8)

Thanks for that.

 

[agentcooper]

hmmm...i guess i can see why you'd call that a boast. didn't mean it to sound that way...oops. i still would like a response to my question, though.

 

[grandma-stole-my-wheels]

hah ha hee -eh heee he haa ha ah haa ha ha.