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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I feel like my last hurdle over my dpdr is to figure out where i stand when it comes to the meaning of life. Im trying to figure out how life is special. From then on i can live my own life feeling as if the things im doing actually matter. I am also writting this to help anyone else with similar beliefs i have. Below i am going to type what i have written in my jounal and where ive become stuck. But keep in mind these are personal beliefs, im an athiest so if your religious, this may not be too helpful/relevant to you and may even be triggering.

"In regards to the universe, the only reason i see for its existence is because nothingness cant exist without something because then nothingness also doesnt exist.
Does life have meaning? Life exists as a byproduct of the universe and as part of it, lifes purpose, just like the universe, is to exist so there isnt nothing. But life is unique, perhaps special, in the fact it doesnt last forever. And every life is different and only happens once. And also because we strive to have our OWN meaning. We were created with no objective purpose and basically by a complicated random sequence of events. The reasoning might be because the universe is inately trying to be something so its naturally just becoming more and more complicated in what its creating. Life being the most complicated assortment of atoms and elements that we know of. But this makes life seem totally meaningless, right? Life is special because it thinks and feels. If anything, life has reason to live and continue because..."

I am stumped on how to finish this last sentence. I think about why creatures like bugs, who dont think about their actions, want to live. Every answer ive come up with just doesnt seem sufficent. Maybe someone on here has ideas? I know i need to find meaning on my own but sometimes having other insights helps as well. I keep thinking of something like "life feels and experiances and is separate in that fact" or something but i need more than that. Maybe its my depression that makes it not seem like enough, idk.
 

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I dont want to force my opinion on you but I strongly believe in god and that he created everything . it is not possible that something comes from nothing . even chemically thats not possible but all the phhsical laws we have in the universe and all the creation has to have a creator . assuming that life and the universe is just a product of chance doesnt make any sense .

I think we are here for a reason and life is like a test or something . that we have dp is also a test imo . and that even such a complicated thing as dp exists is one more proof that we are NOT robits because a robot wouldnt get dp .
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
it is not possible that something comes from nothing
Actually, this is not a fact. Scientists have been able to observe virtual particles spontaneously pop into existence and also dissapear into nothingness once more. Either those particals are just coming from somewhere else which implies everything that makes up the universe or theoretical multiverse is eternal or it means they are literally spontaneously coming from nothing. It could be theoretically possible the universe or possible multiverse is all gods creation. Even if its all gods doing for all this, then i must ask, where did god come from then? Is he/it just an eternal being with no beginning or end? How does that even work? If not, then he mustve sprang up from nothing if he just existed suddenly.
 

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Actually, this is not a fact. Scientists have been able to observe virtual particles spontaneously pop into existence and also dissapear into nothingness once more. Either those particals are just coming from somewhere else which implies everything that makes up the universe or theoretical multiverse is eternal or it means they are literally spontaneously coming from nothing. It could be theoretically possible the universe or possible multiverse is all gods creation. Even if its all gods doing for all this, then i must ask, where did god come from then? Is he/it just an eternal being with no beginning or end? How does that even work? If not, then he mustve sprang up from nothing if he just existed suddenly.
yes god has no creator . and he has no beginning and no end . and everything that exists exists because of him . I am very sure about it . otherwise it really does not make sense

because those virtual particles alone that pop up can only pop up if there is a "force" wanting them to pop up . they can not just pop up if there is no energy that wants them to pop up and does them pop up

we live in a world today where people try to be as smartass as possible and try to take "science" to explain things and think that believing in god is dumb or whatever . (I am not refering to you or to atheists in general but to specific people) but scientist are just humans in the end and science is just a tool we have to explain things but science doesnt explain everything either . also that science even exists should show that it would be very weird if such complex things that sciense explains just exists without any creator behind that .

physics , chemistry , biology , the way nature works , our emotions . everything . thinking that this is all chance .....nah .....I really dont think so .
 

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we live in a world today where people try to be as smartass as possible and try to take "science" to explain things and think that believing in god is dumb or whatever .
Yup, let's regress back to bronze age thinking and explain everything with "it's God!" again. Everything used to be "God did it!" until we learned what it really is through science. Even today, though rational people are willing to admit that it's possible not to know something yet, religious people are keen to explain gaps in knowledge with God. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
 

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Yup, let's go back to bronze age thinking and explain everything with "it's God!" again. Everything used to be "God did it!" until we learned what it really is through science. Even today, though rational people are willing to admit that it's possible not to know something yet, religious people are more keen to explain that gap in knowledge with God. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps
it is a matter of belief in the end .

"until we learned what it really is through science" . nope . we didnt learn shit actually . nothing that sciense "explains" gives an answer about god and they can not disprove god either.

just like religious people are believers atheits are also believers or lets say "disbelievers" . they dont KNOW anything (since nobody can know such a thing) and just BELIEVE there is no god and base that "knowledge" on "muh sciense" . but it doesnt work like that .

also time periods dont mean shit . look at the world today . look at all the degeneration . ask your grandparents what they think of the modern world . so only because we are advancing in time it doesnt mean we can walk around with our noses raised up high thinking we know everything . I believe in god because I feel he is there but most importantly it doesnt make sense that he wouldnt be there as I already explained above

if anybody doesnt want to believe it it is his/her own personal thing that I can not and dont want to intefere with (other than telling my thoughts and opinions which might make them think)

also trust me even if god would show himself to us and told us everything we need to know . there would still be people who wont believe . and there would be people in hundreds of years not believing and would call us delusional people in our time right now if there was relevation .

sciense comes from god (my opinion) and just explains how phenomenas work but it doesnt disprove god nor does it tell anything about god . god is what created these phenomenas to begin with

imagine you play a video game that your parents gave you as a present . imagine you play through all the levels and end the game . if I asked you how to play the game and what happens there you could give me a perfect description step by step (sciense) but if I asked you how a game is created and where it came from you would only know "well the game developers made the game and my parents gave it me for birthday"
 

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Just like I don't believe in fairies, I don't believe in deities. Why should I believe in something for which there is no evidence? Why should I believe in something of which there are multiple, and they all claim to be the only real one? I'm not quite afraid enough of going to hell to be strong-armed by religion to convert to a believer. Intellectual integrity is too important to me to succumb to something like that.

Look, atheists don't need to disprove God. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim. Can you prove God exists? No, the Bible isn't proof. No, "But it makes too much sense to my human brain! Why does nature work? It must be God!" isn't proof. No, "You can't disprove it, either!" isn't proof. You can't disprove that there are upside down immaterial turkeys flying around in space either. Yes, I see no reason at all to believe.

Oh, and if God really did show up, of course I would believe. I am an atheist because there is currently no reason to believe in God. Remember what I said about intellectual integrity?
 

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Just like I don't believe in fairies, I don't believe in deities. Why should I believe in something for which there is no evidence? Why should I believe in something of which there are multiple, and they all claim to be the only real one? I'm not quite afraid enough of going to hell to be strong-armed by religion to convert to a believer. Intellectual integrity is too important to me to succumb to something like that.

Look, atheists don't need to disprove God. The burden of proof is on the one who makes a claim. Can you prove God exists? No, the bible isn't proof. No, "But it makes too much sense to my human brain! Why does nature work? It must be God!" isn't proof. No, "You can't disprove it, either!" isn't proof. You can't disprove that there are upside down immaterial turkeys flying around in space either. Yes, I see no reason at all to believe.
the evidence you want to see can not be given to us because that way it would be too simple . god will not show himself to us to prove us anything . way too easy . and even then some wouldnt believe it trust me lol . some people are just stubborn no matter what . also according to the religions there have been many prophets who have brought the proof already .

there are not multiple . that is not possible . you seem like a smart person and you seem to give importance on logic so you should see that it is logical that the creator of the universe has no partners . because then he wouldnt be god . and if there were many then the logical question would arise "well who created them then ? " so there can only be one god

and the 3 most spread religions are islam , christianity , and judaism and all are monotheistic religions . even though christianity believes in trinity which contradicts it at the same time

and no the burden is not on believers to prove anything . it is not comparable to the immaterial turkey flying around in space example you are giving because the question of god is the most important question to humanity and we will all die in the end and we all want to know whats going on . so if an atheist says there is no good his burden of proof is at least as high as the one of the believer if not more because by saying that there is no god it basically means everything came to existense by luck .which is nosnense to me
 

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the evidence you want to see can not be given to us because that way it would be too simple . god will not show himself to us to prove us anything . way too easy .
Why can't it be easy? Why must it be some sick game like this? Is that for God's entertainment? Does he enjoy watching us bickering and warring over religious differences? Think of all the suffering that could be removed from the world if he just showed up and settled it once and for all. I thought God was supposed to be omnibenevolent. Nah, he clearly rather watches us fight among each other by keeping it a mystery. I think God secretly enjoys suffering. He's into throwing people to hell just for not believing in him too.
 

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Why can't it be easy? Why must it be some sick game like this? Is that for God's entertainment? Does he enjoy watching us bickering and warring over religious differences? Think of all the suffering that could be removed from the world if he just showed up and settled it once and for all. I thought God was supposed to be omnibenevolent. Nah, he clearly rather watches us fight among each other by keeping it a mystery. I think God secretly enjoys suffering. He's into throwing people into hell just for not believing in him too.
I think of it like this :

imagine you are a billionaire . would you want to meet your dream woman before you are billionair or afterwards (when she will know you are billionaire) ? I personally would want her to not know that I am rich ....if she loves me when I am poor then that is the right woman . if she loves me for my money what is the worth of that ?

and believe me as I said even if god showed himself to us there would still be people who not only disbelive but who will try to force other people to not believe in god etc. . and the world would turn into a shithole again after some time .

we have a free will . you think god doesnt know your heart ? he does

a lot of the suffering in the world are caused by humans

there are also people who believe in god but are fucking pieces of shit still and there are people who dont believe in god and are very good human beings . only because you believe in god it doesnt mean that you are a good person necessarily . what comes after believing is to fear god (but not in an unhealthy way) and try to be as good as a human as possible . there are so many "religious" people who do way more harm than good

and god sees this all

but trust me I can understand you . I also am confused and even angry about certain things (may god forgive me my anger) like illnesses etc. . but our only hope is god in the end and that everything will be fine in the end
 

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I think of it like this :

imagine you are a billionaire . would you want to meet your dream woman before you are billionair or afterwards (when she will know you are billionaire) ? I personally would want her to not know that I am rich ....if she loves me when I am poor then that is the right woman . if she loves me for my money what is the worth of that ?
But that's selfish, don't you think? It seems like we are his puppets, worthless pawns he only created to worship him. Also, he seems to appreciate stupidity and credulity in those pawns to an inordinate degree. Why else would he prefer blind faith? Blind faith is the thing he most wants from us. He makes believing in him as hard and irrational as possible by not giving us proof of his existence but then sets that as the only condition to avoid eternal suffering. If that's not a fucked up, backwards game, then I don't know what is. Also, it's unfair because stupidity is not equally given to each individual. If I'm not dumb and credulous enough to blindly believe in something, why do I deserve to suffer?

Also, a person's upbringing plays a big part. Someone raised in a devoutly religious family is much more likely to become religious himself. Where's the free will in this? The person had no say in what kind of parents they receive. A small child does not have the rationality yet to comprehend what makes sense and what doesn't, or question complex things, and thus they have next to no power to resist the religious influence of their upbringing. Free will doesn't exist, but even if it did, it would be a non-factor in such a situation. Children are very susceptible to brainwashing, and free will has nothing to do with that.

and believe me as I said even if god showed himself to us there would still be people who not only disbelive but who will try to force other people to not believe in god etc. . and the world would turn into a shithole again after some time .
Sorry, but that's pure conjecture. There's no reason to believe it is so.

we have a free will . you think god doesnt know your heart ? he does
Ah, free will, my favorite topic of all. Okay, so refute this: if God is omnibenevolent, why did he not create a fully deterministic universe where all sentient beings exist in permanent bliss and harmony throughout their entire life, or even eternity? He had the power to create any kind of universe he wanted. Why would an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being create an universe that operates by mechanics that inevitably cause sentient beings suffering? Looks like we're back to concluding that he is selfish, and his main goal in creating this universe was to make pawns that would satisfy his selfish craving for worship. He made this life a sick game for his own amusement. Where's the benevolence now? Looks like God isn't so good. I'm not even a deity, and I can tell you how to make a vastly better universe, from the perspective of benevolence, than God did.

a lot of the suffering in the world are caused by humans
Nope, it's caused by God-or rather, would be if it was the case that we live in a universe created by a deity. He had all the power to make a universe that operates by mechanics that don't result in suffering. It was in his power to set the dominoes in any way he wanted, yet he chose to make an indeterministic universe that will inevitably lead to suffering.

By the way, free will does not exist, and that's whether (strict) physical determinism is true or false.

Metaphysically, every action you make is caused. You are not a causa sui. You didn't create yourself. Every action and choice you make is caused by antecedent causes. The fact that I wrote this sentence right now came from the person, the character I had at the moment of writing it. All decisions I make depend on who I am. Am I responsible for who I am? I am not. Why is that? That is because I didn't create myself. I didn't create the character from which the decision came. Now you could argue that, "yes, you did create that character throughout your life, through the decisions you made before!". That's false because, say, I had a "character-changing" moment earlier that affected a later decision. The problem is that I already had a character in the "character-changing" moment! In every decision that affected my character (which my decision came from), I was already someone in that moment. You can regress this chain all the way back to your birth, at which point you had no power to decide at all, yet you were already being formed into a person; you were already amassing causal influences.

So we return to the fact that you are not a causa sui and a mover unmoved. You didn't create yourself, so you're not responsible for who you are.

The second problem is physical: you are an entity composed of matter-including your brain, which your mind is a function of-and thus you are governed by physical laws as the rest of this universe is. Newtonian, macroscopic, physics are causal. Quantum, microscopic, physics are arguably acausal, depending on which quantum interpretation you subscribe to. Neither of these make room for free will. Deterministic physical laws mean that A always causes B. Thus, there can be no free will because the future could be predicted if all the variables that constitute it were known-unless it's affected by quantum indeterminism, which only results in randomness. Acausality, or indeterminism, can't grant free will because randomness is not free will. Having indeterministic events take place in the brain would be dangerous because it would result in completely random behavior, so we should be glad it doesn't happen.

Why do you think your computer is able to run right now? Because it exists in a causal universe. It doesn't just randomly do something out of nowhere. Every bit works according to how it's programmed. If a program doesn't work, it's because there was a programming error, not because the laws and logic of the universe suddenly fell apart. The electricity supplied to the components of the computer is also strictly following physical laws. It works predictably, causally. And guess what? So does your brain. It's not some unique (except in its stunningly beautiful complexity) isolated piece of matter that has its own rules entirely.

but our only hope is god in the end and that everything will be fine in the end
Our only hope is God? No thanks. I choose reason, and that's no thanks to free will. I'm happy that causality formed me into the kind of person that is rational instead of blindly believing in things, but I can take no credit for that. Really, my parents and the society I've lived and live in, in addition to genetics, are why I am the way I am. I am a product of nature and nurture, and free will has absolutely nothing to do with that. Had I had a religious upbringing, and had I grown up in a deeply religious oppressive environment, I'd almost certainly be religious right now-or dead.

I'm glad I was lucky enough to find and absorb the information that allowed me to rid myself of that archaic notion in the past year or so.
 

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I was watching youtube videos on particle physics the other day. I'm not sure mere humans are meant to understand the complexities of the universe, but I admire those who make the attempt

to reveal those complexities, and also those who make the attempt to understand them. The universe is not readily understandable to the average IQ of 100.

Scientists have strict policies for determining what is true. I love going back in history and reading of the men and women who have raised the scientific bar.

Pythagoras, Maxwell, Faraday, Curie, Tesla, Newton, Venter. Their stories are enlightening and optimistic.

I don't admire evangelists nearly as much. They tend to accept, as true, things that have not been verified.

Sometimes, evangelists bend facts to support their beliefs. I don't see how progress can be made in understanding with those methods.

The largest scientific experiments in history are taking place at CERN, an underground particle accelerator in Europe.

The Higgs Field and Boson have already been discovered.

Evangelicals are trying to shut down the particle accelerator at CERN. They fear that the experiments will create a black hole that will swallow the earth. I think they also fear

an alternative to their belief systems. (verifiable scientific fact).
 

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I used to think all the religious / spiritual stuff was nonsense and that everything was meaningless and that the scientific method was the only way to explain and understand existence. I don't think it ever will though. It is only concerned with material, objective, measurable phenomena. I say "only", but I have the highest respect for science and all who have moved it forward over time. But the problem is it can never truly make sense of subjective experience. I like the Terence McKenna quote: "Genetics is like saying you understand Los Angeles because you have the telephone directory". Certain human experiences, states and feelings are not scientifically measurable and yet they are just as relevant and real and identifiable as objectively measurable events. When I was studying Social Psychology for my degree, the only way to make much sense of human behaviour, I found, was through phenomenology - the description of direct experience. In the past few years I have been more drawn towards what I suppose you would call spirituality. Philosophers like Alan Watts and spiritual teachers such as Eckhart Tolle and Mooji describe existence with such a beautiful simplicity, without any dogma involved. What they say resonates with me a lot and I don't feel the need to believe anything. It is all about awareness and watching and listening to your intuition.
But what is the meaning of life? I think people who are happy and have loving relationships don't need to ask this question. They have the meaning right there in their hands. I think it's normal to question the meaning of everything when you are deeply unhappy and feel completely lost. The only way I personally can make sense of enduring misery is that it is happening for a reason and you must trust that there is a process happening which might not be clear in the moment. I think there is such a thing as infinity. Infinity of all possibilities. This is such a thing that exists but if you thought about it, being able to have anything you ever wanted would not really give you what you wanted. It would be great at first but there would be no challenge, no learning, no surprises. Perhaps life is a limitation with the highest purpose - to experience the most beautiful experiences possible but coming with a risk of misery. But nothing lasts forever and there is always hope in the constantly changing environment of existence. Having a sense of humour reminds me sometimes that none of this ridiculous life should be taken completely seriously and things such as humour, love and beauty intuitively to me, seem to come from the deepest most truthful place.
 

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But that's selfish, don't you think? It seems like we are his puppets, worthless pawns he only created to worship him. Also, he seems to appreciate stupidity and credulity in those pawns to an inordinate degree. Why else would he prefer blind faith? Blind faith is the thing he most wants from us. He makes believing in him as hard and irrational as possible by not giving us proof of his existence but then sets that as the only condition to avoid eternal suffering. If that's not a fucked up, backwards game, then I don't know what is. Also, it's unfair because stupidity is not equally given to each individual. If I'm not dumb and credulous enough to blindly believe in something, why do I deserve to suffer?

Also, a person's upbringing plays a big part. Someone raised in a devoutly religious family is much more likely to become religious himself. Where's the free will in this? The person had no say in what kind of parents they receive. A small child does not have the rationality yet to comprehend what makes sense and what doesn't, or question complex things, and thus they have next to no power to resist the religious influence of their upbringing. Free will doesn't exist, but even if it did, it would be a non-factor in such a situation. Children are very susceptible to brainwashing, and free will has nothing to do with that.

Sorry, but that's pure conjecture. There's no reason to believe it is so.

Ah, free will, my favorite topic of all. Okay, so refute this: if God is omnibenevolent, why did he not create a fully deterministic universe where all sentient beings exist in permanent bliss and harmony throughout their entire life, or even eternity? He had the power to create any kind of universe he wanted. Why would an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being create an universe that operates by mechanics that inevitably cause sentient beings suffering? Looks like we're back to concluding that he is selfish, and his main goal in creating this universe was to make pawns that would satisfy his selfish craving for worship. He made this life a sick game for his own amusement. Where's the benevolence now? Looks like God isn't so good. I'm not even a deity, and I can tell you how to make a vastly better universe, from the perspective of benevolence, than God did.

Nope, it's caused by God-or rather, would be if it was the case that we live in a universe created by a deity. He had all the power to make a universe that operates by mechanics that don't result in suffering. It was in his power to set the dominoes in any way he wanted, yet he chose to make an indeterministic universe that will inevitably lead to suffering.

By the way, free will does not exist, and that's whether (strict) physical determinism is true or false.

Metaphysically, every action you make is caused. You are not a causa sui. You didn't create yourself. Every action and choice you make is caused by antecedent causes. The fact that I wrote this sentence right now came from the person, the character I had at the moment of writing it. All decisions I make depend on who I am. Am I responsible for who I am? I am not. Why is that? That is because I didn't create myself. I didn't create the character from which the decision came. Now you could argue that, "yes, you did create that character throughout your life, through the decisions you made before!". That's false because, say, I had a "character-changing" moment earlier that affected a later decision. The problem is that I already had a character in the "character-changing" moment! In every decision that affected my character (which my decision came from), I was already someone in that moment. You can regress this chain all the way back to your birth, at which point you had no power to decide at all, yet you were already being formed into a person; you were already amassing causal influences.

So we return to the fact that you are not a causa sui and a mover unmoved. You didn't create yourself, so you're not responsible for who you are.

The second problem is physical: you are an entity composed of matter-including your brain, which your mind is a function of-and thus you are governed by physical laws as the rest of this universe is. Newtonian, macroscopic, physics are causal. Quantum, microscopic, physics are arguably acausal, depending on which quantum interpretation you subscribe to. Neither of these make room for free will. Deterministic physical laws mean that A always causes B. Thus, there can be no free will because the future could be predicted if all the variables that constitute it were known-unless it's affected by quantum indeterminism, which only results in randomness. Acausality, or indeterminism, can't grant free will because randomness is not free will. Having indeterministic events take place in the brain would be dangerous because it would result in completely random behavior, so we should be glad it doesn't happen.

Why do you think your computer is able to run right now? Because it exists in a causal universe. It doesn't just randomly do something out of nowhere. Every bit works according to how it's programmed. If a program doesn't work, it's because there was a programming error, not because the laws and logic of the universe suddenly fell apart. The electricity supplied to the components of the computer is also strictly following physical laws. It works predictably, causally. And guess what? So does your brain. It's not some unique (except in its stunningly beautiful complexity) isolated piece of matter that has its own rules entirely.

Our only hope is God? No thanks. I choose reason, and that's no thanks to free will. I'm happy that causality formed me into the kind of person that is rational instead of blindly believing in things, but I can take no credit for that. Really, my parents and the society I've lived and live in, in addition to genetics, are why I am the way I am. I am a product of nature and nurture, and free will has absolutely nothing to do with that. Had I had a religious upbringing, and had I grown up in a deeply religious oppressive environment, I'd almost certainly be religious right now-or dead.

I'm glad I was lucky enough to find and absorb the information that allowed me to rid myself of that archaic notion in the past year or so.
I will answer you later

but how can I edit your post in a way that I can quote you on each paragraph instead of quoting the whole text/post ?
 

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I will answer you later

but how can I edit your post in a way that I can quote you on each paragraph instead of quoting the whole text/post ?
You need to use this button:
Make a quote box like that, and copy-paste lines from the post you want to quote into those quote boxes. That's how I do it, anyway. There may be a better way.

By, the way, sorry for hijacking the thread with Psyborg, sort of.
icon_rolleyes.gif


On topic:

I am stumped on how to finish this last sentence. I think about why creatures like bugs, who dont think about their actions, want to live. Every answer ive come up with just doesnt seem sufficent. Maybe someone on here has ideas?
Because of evolutionary programming. Think of them as biological computers that do what they're programmed to do by their interaction with environment. It's the exact same thing in humans, only we can analyze ourselves and form rationales about it. As for "what's the point of this evolutionary programming?" Well, it's survival of the gene. Then you could ask, "well, what's the point of that?" Eventually you will get to a point where you won't get an answer. Seriously, you will never get that satisfactory answer you're looking for. But so what? To me, that's completely fine. No special metaphysical purpose is okay in my books.

Of course, religion will probably supply that answer, but then you'll have to say goodbye to reason, and that's quite steep a price to pay.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
@ PerfectFifth and Psyborg
Thanks for you answers, the debate you two are having is interesting to me because i found something that kinda brings both worlds together. Imma link these two videos, the second one being the more in depth version. Im really curious as to what others may think of this and i really recommend watching them.


 

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But that's selfish, don't you think? It seems like we are his puppets, worthless pawns he only created to worship him. Also, he seems to appreciate stupidity and credulity in those pawns to an inordinate degree. Why else would he prefer blind faith? Blind faith is the thing he most wants from us. He makes believing in him as hard and irrational as possible by not giving us proof of his existence but then sets that as the only condition to avoid eternal suffering. If that's not a fucked up, backwards game, then I don't know what is. Also, it's unfair because stupidity is not equally given to each individual. If I'm not dumb and credulous enough to blindly believe in something, why do I deserve to suffer?
sorry for the late reply .

no . god has no ego . he doesnt "need us" ....

I dont know where you got the information from that god wants blind faith from us . it is actually quite the contrary . not only is that illogical but even if we go by religion : I have watched videos of a professor of a specific lineage of a religion who I think if there is any religion and any lineage that could be "the truth" than it is this man and his lineage . and he says that we have to be sceptical and that blind faith is not good . as humans god gave us a brain to think and blind faith is not what he wants from us .

also regarding the differences in intelligence etc. . god judges us differently depending on our possibilities btw. . for example you , me and other people here on board who suffer from mental health problems and of course people who are ill otherwise will judged differently than people who are totally healthy . god knows that we suffer from these problems

likewise if there is a person who is very poor and can not help other people and/or animals because he doesnt have the options is better than someone who is rich but only helps others 1-2 times to look good and to stroke his ego

things are not as simple and black and white as you think . we are not supposed to be robots to worship god and if we dont we get the punishment etc. . that is actually a misunderstanding and I personally also thought that this is how the religious people think and many of them actually think that way . but it is not true . it also cant be true because it wouldnt make sense

Also, a person's upbringing plays a big part. Someone raised in a devoutly religious family is much more likely to become religious himself. Where's the free will in this? The person had no say in what kind of parents they receive. A small child does not have the rationality yet to comprehend what makes sense and what doesn't, or question complex things, and thus they have next to no power to resist the religious influence of their upbringing. Free will doesn't exist, but even if it did, it would be a non-factor in such a situation. Children are very susceptible to brainwashing, and free will has nothing to do with that.
and you think god doesnt take this into account ? lol ...

different upbringings are taken into account by god .

Sorry, but that's pure conjecture. There's no reason to believe it is so.

Ah, free will, my favorite topic of all. Okay, so refute this: if God is omnibenevolent, why did he not create a fully deterministic universe where all sentient beings exist in permanent bliss and harmony throughout their entire life, or even eternity? He had the power to create any kind of universe he wanted. Why would an omnibenevolent and omnipotent being create an universe that operates by mechanics that inevitably cause sentient beings suffering? Looks like we're back to concluding that he is selfish, and his main goal in creating this universe was to make pawns that would satisfy his selfish craving for worship. He made this life a sick game for his own amusement. Where's the benevolence now? Looks like God isn't so good. I'm not even a deity, and I can tell you how to make a vastly better universe, from the perspective of benevolence, than God did.

Nope, it's caused by God-or rather, would be if it was the case that we live in a universe created by a deity. He had all the power to make a universe that operates by mechanics that don't result in suffering. It was in his power to set the dominoes in any way he wanted, yet he chose to make an indeterministic universe that will inevitably lead to suffering.
if god did that THEN we would be like robots . thats what you dont want to understand . if god set everything perfectly then there would be no point . maybe a bad example but do you know the "a friend will show in bad times" saying ? (or something like that ? ) ....a true friend will show in bad times ....if everything is good then everybody will be by your side but if things are bad then the person who will be with you will be your true friend

look what you are saying "I'm not even a deity, and I can tell you how to make a vastly better universe" ....this is what I am talking about ! you know it because you want certain things to be from your heart which shows your heart . that is important . if god would have made everything perfectly then you wouldnt have this ....but you want certain things to change and you want people to have it good and that is important .

I dont kniw if I could explain it to you well . and of course I also have many questions regarding god . I am just giving you what I personally think and also what I have learned from the professor I am talking about .

By the way, free will does not exist, and that's whether (strict) physical determinism is true or false.

Metaphysically, every action you make is caused. You are not a causa sui. You didn't create yourself. Every action and choice you make is caused by antecedent causes. The fact that I wrote this sentence right now came from the person, the character I had at the moment of writing it. All decisions I make depend on who I am. Am I responsible for who I am? I am not. Why is that? That is because I didn't create myself. I didn't create the character from which the decision came. Now you could argue that, "yes, you did create that character throughout your life, through the decisions you made before!". That's false because, say, I had a "character-changing" moment earlier that affected a later decision. The problem is that I already had a character in the "character-changing" moment! In every decision that affected my character (which my decision came from), I was already someone in that moment. You can regress this chain all the way back to your birth, at which point you had no power to decide at all, yet you were already being formed into a person; you were already amassing causal influences.
what you are saying does not contradict with having a free will . of course you are a product of your cicrumstances and experiences . BUT .....trust me on this each person reacts different to each circumstance and experience . you are still deciding what you are doing and how you handle things . imagine you would become rich all of a sudden . would you forget your family and friends ? tell me this .... you most likely would not . but there are people like that . are there things that you did in the past that you are sorry for today ? I bet there is . me for example I did some things towards people in the past which I regretted a lot especially in 2018 when I had the worst time in my life I cried because of some things I did to a friend (who was my classmate) when we were 14-15 years old . I found him years later through another classmate and invited him and apologized to him . it matters what you make out of your circumstances and experiences . it is like a mix of fate and free will .

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I somehow cant post under the quoted section below so what I am writing here is the answer to the section below :

only because there are phyiscal and chemical laws etc. which makes things function as they do it doesnt mean that there is no free will . we can not control the laws of nature (god does ...) and thats good . you are basically saying that because things work as they work that we just could sit in a room and wait for what is happening lol . only because our brain works by itself as a system we dont need to think about things anymore .....the fact that we all have brains which function by themselves anatomically but yet we all have different views , opinions , actions etc. actually is a proof for free will too . of course you will now say that we are products of our surroundings and experiences since birth but then I ask you to please read what I wrote above again

So we return to the fact that you are not a causa sui and a mover unmoved. You didn't create yourself, so you're not responsible for who you are.

The second problem is physical: you are an entity composed of matter-including your brain, which your mind is a function of-and thus you are governed by physical laws as the rest of this universe is. Newtonian, macroscopic, physics are causal. Quantum, microscopic, physics are arguably acausal, depending on which quantum interpretation you subscribe to. Neither of these make room for free will. Deterministic physical laws mean that A always causes B. Thus, there can be no free will because the future could be predicted if all the variables that constitute it were known-unless it's affected by quantum indeterminism, which only results in randomness. Acausality, or indeterminism, can't grant free will because randomness is not free will. Having indeterministic events take place in the brain would be dangerous because it would result in completely random behavior, so we should be glad it doesn't happen.

Why do you think your computer is able to run right now? Because it exists in a causal universe. It doesn't just randomly do something out of nowhere. Every bit works according to how it's programmed. If a program doesn't work, it's because there was a programming error, not because the laws and logic of the universe suddenly fell apart. The electricity supplied to the components of the computer is also strictly following physical laws. It works predictably, causally. And guess what? So does your brain. It's not some unique (except in its stunningly beautiful complexity) isolated piece of matter that has its own rules entirely.

Our only hope is God? No thanks. I choose reason, and that's no thanks to free will. I'm happy that causality formed me into the kind of person that is rational instead of blindly believing in things, but I can take no credit for that. Really, my parents and the society I've lived and live in, in addition to genetics, are why I am the way I am. I am a product of nature and nurture, and free will has absolutely nothing to do with that. Had I had a religious upbringing, and had I grown up in a deeply religious oppressive environment, I'd almost certainly be religious right now-or dead.

I'm glad I was lucky enough to find and absorb the information that allowed me to rid myself of that archaic notion in the past year or so.
 

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I feel kind of upset for Psyborg since PerfectFifth seems to be in the habit of starting debates with him The again, the original poster did state that she has no interest in God, which I relate to. It seems like you two aren't really connecting over any purpose for the conversation, rather it's one of those good ol' internet arguments where each side is just getting fulfillment out of espousing their own beliefs.

For me, it's easier to with PerfectFifth's view of things, because his are closer to mine.

I don't know if you've ever listened to Alan Watts, whose name was already dropped once in here. If you reach a strong enough state of detachment, you'll notice that your consciousness really can be a passive observer. Your thoughts and desires arise from your mind spontaneously, without your control.

To answer your question, Psyborg, yes. We can just sit in a room, do nothing, and then watch the rest of our lives arise spontaneously as if we're not in control. The phenomenon is called Wu Wei, zen, or flow. If you're passive enough, you'll stop forcing yourself to sit still and focus, and eventually everything inside of you will seem to arise spontaneously. The shift can take a long time for some, but for more detached people like we here at DPSH, the shift can happen in an instant.

For all intents and purposes, arguments about the 'true nature' of free will and the self are mostly philosophical and semantical, but the paragraph above is absolutely true and I recommend trying it for yourself. I don't know if you're Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, but people of all faiths meditate.
what you are saying is not contradicting what I am saying in any way

I used to meditate in a martial art school often . not that long of course (only a few minutes on each meditation) and it is not comparable to the medication form you are talking about but I found it relaxing and it was clearing my mind . I even thought about starting meditating to easy my dr

and I am not trying to force my beliefs on anybody here . I am just sharing them with you and try to "help" if that makes sense and try to take away the misconceptions people have when it comes to god and religion in general . to me this is not an "I am right you and I want to rub it to your face" kind of thing at all .

and I do think we are on topic but if Emptyflask is unhappy with our discussion then I have no problem to stop it . my aim is not to highjack the thread
 

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I could respond to that post of Psyborg, but it's probably a good idea not to at this point. I'll just leave it here.
 
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