[joshuathornton76]

Isn't dissociation also common in people with "overactive amygdalae" like in EUPD and PTSD? I'm not sure how their depersonalization differs in presentation or what this would have to do with a hypothetical drug. This overactive amygdalae claim is something I heard from clinicians and not something I've studied myself. Regardless, trailing any medication is probably better than trailing none. Psychiatrists have told me the goal of drug interventions now is to "normalize" certain systems. In emotionally unstable people they have hot, overly emotional moments as well as cold, empty moments and everything in between, so stability is a good goal for them.

I'm pretty sure it's under active, not over active. People with PTSD are constantly in a state of agitation and fight or flight mode. People with depersonalization are basically always in flight mode, leading to underutilization of most somatic parts of the brain. If you research kappa opioid receptors, it links pretty directly with our state of mind. That's also why the only reliable drug that has been shown to help is naloxone, which is also an opioid antagonist. It's just not a selective antagonist so it doesn't directly serve the purpose.

 

[NoDevils]

I'm pretty sure it's under active, not over active. People with PTSD are constantly in a state of agitation and fight or flight mode. People with depersonalization are basically always in flight mode, leading to underutilization of most somatic parts of the brain. If you research kappa opioid receptors, it links pretty directly with our state of mind. That's also why the only reliable drug that has been shown to help is naloxone, which is also an opioid antagonist. It's just not a selective antagonist so it doesn't directly serve the purpose.

Depersonalization and derealization syndromes most often present with comorbid disorders among which are PTSD and EUPD or BPD. The point of drug intervention is to make people's brains more regular, not necessarily to correct a simple, polar imbalance. Brain function isn't that simple. That kind of brain soup theory has coincided with the development of important drugs like antipsychotics and antidepressants, so it hasn't been a useless theory by any means. What you're suggesting sounds kind of like a brain activity theory, too much electrical activity over here and not enough over there. Of course I'm very far from a scientist and don't have any good terms or advanced understanding to help with this.

 

[joshuathornton76]

Depersonalization and derealization syndromes most often present with comorbid disorders among which are PTSD and EUPD or BPD. The point of drug intervention is to make people's brains more regular, not necessarily to correct a simple, polar imbalance. Brain function isn't that simple. That kind of brain soup theory has coincided with the development of important drugs like antipsychotics and antidepressants, so it hasn't been a useless theory by any means. What you're suggesting sounds kind of like a brain activity theory, too much electrical activity over here and not enough over there. Of course I'm very far from a scientist and don't have any good terms or advanced understanding to help with this.

You are correct. My apologies, I meant to say people with depersonalization disorder are constantly in flight mode. It's really more so chemical. I'm sure you know all about the HPA axis, etc. I think that's the real problem with depersonalization disorder. A blanket treatment doesn't seem to help. At least not as much as it should. It would be interesting to talk to the doctors who studied it at kings college. They were probably the foremost experts on this subject. They are the ones who found the DP cocktail was most effective.

I appreciate the conversation and you sharing your opinions and information. I always like to learn as much as I can and share as much as I can.

 

[NoDevils]

You are correct. My apologies, I meant to say people with depersonalization disorder are constantly in flight mode. It's really more so chemical. I'm sure you know all about the HPA axis, etc. I think that's the real problem with depersonalization disorder. A blanket treatment doesn't seem to help. At least not as much as it should. It would be interesting to talk to the doctors who studied it at kings college. They were probably the foremost experts on this subject. They are the ones who found the DP cocktail was most effective.

I appreciate the conversation and you sharing your opinions and information. I always like to learn as much as I can and share as much as I can.

I actually don't know what the HPA axis is. I met two people with depersonalization in person, one had the syndrome from migraines and was "cured" by medication for the migraines. The other had anxiety and chronic depersonalization and his depersonalization was more stubborn. If they had a medication to treat this idiopathic or anxiety-related depersonalization that would be good. Do you believe all people with depersonalization disorder have this "broken" stress or anxiety response, at least by definition?

I think people can have multiple distinct mental health conditions. I've been told I present with PTSD and respond well to PTSD medication, but my chronic depersonalization is very steadfast. Fortunately I don't have it to the severity of being dizzy.

 

[joshuathornton76]

I actually don't know what the HPA axis is. I met two people with depersonalization in person, one had the syndrome from migraines and was "cured" by medication for the migraines. The other had anxiety and chronic depersonalization and his depersonalization was more stubborn. If they had a medication to treat this idiopathic or anxiety-related depersonalization that would be good. Do you believe all people with depersonalization disorder have this "broken" stress or anxiety response, at least by definition?

I think people can have multiple distinct mental health conditions. I've been told I present with PTSD and respond well to PTSD medication, but my chronic depersonalization is very steadfast. Fortunately I don't have it to the severity of being dizzy.

I do believe people with depersonalization disorder have an irregular response to anxiety, which causes your brain to stay in flight mode as a defence mechanism for itself. A lot of people who get DP from weed or drugs seem to get better quicker, and it doesn't last as long in itself. People with a history of panic disorder, GAD, etc... are more prone to developing chronic depersonalization and/or depersonalization disorder even without comorbid symptoms. It's why some people don't really feel anxiety but they are still separated from themselves and the world around.

PTSD is extremely tricky so I am not surprised it's causing more problems for you and your recovery.

 

[NoDevils]

I do believe people with depersonalization disorder have an irregular response to anxiety, which causes your brain to stay in flight mode as a defence mechanism for itself. A lot of people who get DP from weed or drugs seem to get better quicker, and it doesn't last as long in itself. People with a history of panic disorder, GAD, etc... are more prone to developing chronic depersonalization and/or depersonalization disorder even without comorbid symptoms. It's why some people don't really feel anxiety but they are still separated from themselves and the world around.

PTSD is extremely tricky so I am not surprised it's causing more problems for you and your recovery.

Did you ever notice how some people become very defensive at the suggestion depersonalization could be a malfunctioning anxiety response? Being agnostic is good but they seem certain they don't have anxiety. It makes me wonder who the hell is free of anxiety, especially in modern times.

 

[leminaseri]

Did you ever notice how some people become very defensive at the suggestion depersonalization could be a malfunctioning anxiety response? Being agnostic is good but they seem certain they don't have anxiety. It makes me wonder who the hell is free of anxiety, especially in modern times.

the hidden anxiety shows itself on my body as a tense. my muscles are under chronic tense

 

[NoDevils]

the hidden anxiety shows itself on my body as a tense. my muscles are under chronic tense

I think I'm perpetually on alert and not fully relaxed.

 

[dpdrhaver184]

Did you ever notice how some people become very defensive at the suggestion depersonalization could be a malfunctioning anxiety response? Being agnostic is good but they seem certain they don't have anxiety. It makes me wonder who the hell is free of anxiety, especially in modern times.

I think I can answer that. I used to think exactly like that, I wouldn't even consider that anxiety was causing my DP/DR. I am more open to the idea now, but I'm still skeptical. There's a few answers:

- That idea is often framed in a way that feels like victim-blaming. Seeing a post that boils down to "Your DP/DR is your fault because you're so anxious and if you just relaxed for a second then it would go away, how hard is that?" feels insulting and dismissive. I'm not sure if that's the core of the anxiety theory or not, but a lot of peoples' interpretation of the theory are just like that. Recovery stories in particular seem to (accidentally or not) push this idea, because fixing things seem easy and simple when you aren't going through them. The obvious response to all this for the reader is "I don't feel anxious, I see others far more anxious than me without DP/DR, and even if I am anxious then fixing it is not as simple as you make it out to be".

- Chronic anxiety is not a difficult idea, but what is a difficult idea is "you have always been anxious, 24/7, for the last year, no matter how you felt". That's what is required to tell me, who's had 24/7 DP/DR for a year, that anxiety is causing it. For episodic DP/DR it makes a lot more sense. Also, one would expect given the anxiety explanation that the DP/DR would rise and fall in intensity directly proportional to the anxiety. For some this happens, for me it absolutely doesn't. In fact, I have had moments of near-clarity in the middle of extremely stressful situations and I am at a loss to explain why.

- A lot of people get DP/DR from drugs, often during their use or immediately after. I am one of those people. It's extremely hard for me to believe that I just suddenly got chronic anxiety from a relaxing drug. Lots of people try to explain this with vague ideas like "the drug must have pushed you over the edge" but they're rarely specific about what edge or how a drug could do that. Drugs have a direct and obvious causal link, and to convince someone they should substitute drugs for anxiety as the cause is a tough sell.

Not trying to nuke your idea from orbit, but all of these rebuttals seem common in the people I've talked to and you gotta admit the anxiety idea is not as obvious as it may seem to those who have already accepted it.

 

[NoDevils]

I think I can answer that. I used to think exactly like that, I wouldn't even consider that anxiety was causing my DP/DR. I am more open to the idea now, but I'm still skeptical. There's a few answers:

- That idea is often framed in a way that feels like victim-blaming. Seeing a post that boils down to "Your DP/DR is your fault because you're so anxious and if you just relaxed for a second then it would go away, how hard is that?" feels insulting and dismissive. I'm not sure if that's the core of the anxiety theory or not, but a lot of peoples' interpretation of the theory are just like that. Recovery stories in particular seem to (accidentally or not) push this idea, because fixing things seem easy and simple when you aren't going through them. The obvious response to all this for the reader is "I don't feel anxious, I see others far more anxious than me without DP/DR, and even if I am anxious then fixing it is not as simple as you make it out to be".

- Chronic anxiety is not a difficult idea, but what is a difficult idea is "you have always been anxious, 24/7, for the last year, no matter how you felt". That's what is required to tell me, who's had 24/7 DP/DR for a year, that anxiety is causing it. For episodic DP/DR it makes a lot more sense. Also, one would expect given the anxiety explanation that the DP/DR would rise and fall in intensity directly proportional to the anxiety. For some this happens, for me it absolutely doesn't. In fact, I have had moments of near-clarity in the middle of extremely stressful situations and I am at a loss to explain why.

- A lot of people get DP/DR from drugs, often during their use or immediately after. I am one of those people. It's extremely hard for me to believe that I just suddenly got chronic anxiety from a relaxing drug. Lots of people try to explain this with vague ideas like "the drug must have pushed you over the edge" but they're rarely specific about what edge or how a drug could do that. Drugs have a direct and obvious causal link, and to convince someone they should substitute drugs for anxiety as the cause is a tough sell.

Not trying to nuke your idea from orbit, but all of these rebuttals seem common in the people I've talked to and you gotta admit the anxiety idea is not as obvious as it may seem to those who have already accepted it.

I understand your point. The anxiety case is often put forth by dismissive "recovery Nazis" who don't understand the various nuances of people's experiences.

DPDR seems to blunt anxiety and other emotional states. If chronic DPDR is a response to severe anxiety it seems to become "stuck on" after the anxiety has lowered to a more moderate level. The most common negative reaction to marijuana is anxiety though a bad trip can also include dissociative or psychotic features.