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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
that what we are doing is not working?

Here is the major way we keep ourselves from healing:

Everytime we give into our obsessions, and keep saying the same things, and keep looking for answers in exactly the same places we've been looking - it's not just that those are wastes of time - they ARE HARMING progress.

Many of us are willing to try something new but we ALSO KEEP DOING THE OLD STUFF AT the SAME TIME! That is NOT trying something new. And it's never going to work. If you've done this enough times, you know exactly what I'm talking about. And you also know that you will STILL turn around and keep doing it! The human mind is amazing

It's like a person who is desperate to lose weight and tries all kinds of diets and pills and major exercise routines..but all the while keeps eating 12 doughnuts before bed each night. NO diet in the world is going to make much of a dent.

We say "I'll try this one new approach" but we keep watching ourselves, monitoring our bodies and minds for every little shift...and the ways we react when we feel a shift is with the same HYPER-focus where we start watching ourselves even MORE closely, comparing how and when and why this sudden dip got worse than it was this morning, etc....

If you want to try some NEW approach (whether its a med, or a therapy or a new relationship or a new habit or a new way of eating, etc.....) you MUST also be willing to give up the old coping technqiuest that you THINK are helping, but that are clearly not working at all.

it's not enough to ADD the vitamins and soy milk to your diet if you don't STOP eating the doughnuts.

You can argue with me, or say I'm full of crap...but this is the MAIN reason people do not recover from their mental symptoms - they want to be BETTER without having to change. They want to GET well on their OWN terms, not by really working very hard at STOPPING the self-obsessing that is keeping them ill.

And it's also the main reason most psychiatrists will just say "well, nothing really we can do for you." It's not that this is UNTREATABLE - it's that WE are hard to treat, because we want to do it the way we want to do it. And here we are, guys. I was crippled for nearly 20 yrs. how long it takes each person is up to the individual.

Janine
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
But like.. i dunno.. you're always in your head. I dont know how else to put it. This weirdness has always been me. I suppose thats why i dont whine about it as much as other people. I feel that this detached duality is in fact the observable "me", and is relatable to everything i've known. I think people on this board would benefit best by your advice.. i just cant ever imagine wanting to be normal after experiencing what this is like. I mean yes, its exausting.. hehe.. but man.. its such an obviously unique place to be in. Perhaps im the devils advocate. har har. I just look at everyone who lives outside of themself and i really dont see much to be desired, except for that feeling of being complete and unfrightened. It just makes me sad to see people want to change just because they're saddened.. much because they're alone in their enlightenment. If you're tired of being alone, ill hang with you. pbbt. We can talk about forgetting about death.

eDfGr33n
"i think this post got off topic."
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Janine, good post but i have a very REAL question for you or anyone for that matter.

Does totally trying something new mean NOT COMING TO THIS SITE ANYMORE??

Lets be honest now, MAYBE coming to this site just adds fuel to the fire and makes us think about it more because its right there in front of our faces.

Of course 98 % of the people wouldn't leave this site, because WE are all obessive.

Im contemplating it though, and I KNOW that would also make alot of corny people here happy, if I left.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I agree for the self-obsessing.

I agree this put us in deep dp/dr. And it's like, you know it, almot impossible to say : ah, this isnt bothering me, when it had turned your life all around. It's like having a arm cut, it bleeds, it hurts, but you have to say : let's try to focus on something else. VERY hard.

Especially when you have trouble to concentrate AT ALL.

But I do understand this part and I agree.

It's for the psychoanalytic part that I don't agree, that it helps ALL the people who have dp/dr. Or talk therapy, and having a psychologist who just liscen to all your fears, and you talk and talk and say : maybe I have this? or that? Maybe I am that? And the psychologist just put doubt in your mind. And you can continue to create yourself fears endlessly. And you continue self-obsessing, of you, you and you. And for me it creates more anxiety, and depersonalization. It turns my mind inward, I just think I may be that or that, and obsessions continue. I don't know if you understand.

Anyway, just wanted to say that I agree for some part of your post.

Cynthia xxx
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Does totally trying something new mean NOT COMING TO THIS SITE ANYMORE??

Lets be honest now, MAYBE coming to this site just adds fuel to the fire and makes us think about it more because its right there in front of our faces.

Of course 98 % of the people wouldn't leave this site, because WE are all obessive.
I agree... it'S so hard not to come here. It's the same for forgetting DP.

I know this place is a support place, but how can we forget DP/DR if we come here? And if DP/DR comes from thinking about it, it's logical, hun?
But...... I know it's a support place too!

Cyn xxx
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Are you coming here and doing/trying new approaches? and really TRYING them? Not trying them for a week...but really really trying them?

Then coming here is fine.

Are you coming here and doing the exact same things, asking for the exact same reassurances, going down the exact same paths as when you first arrived?

Well....then...no. Not a good idea.

It's not a question of COMING here or NOT coming here.

It's HOW you come here and what other major changes you are willing to make and work hard every single day to implement - that's what matters.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Let's make some assumptions. Number 1, and correct me if I'm wrong - but I have to believe that at least MOST people would rather not have any reason to be a member of this site. Sure, it's a great place to meet people and all that, but there's other, more fun places to do that.

So, starting with the premise we don't want to be DP/DR.....let's say I know this guy, who happens to belong to this site. Belonged to the one before it even. Now, and again I have to make some assumptions here, but let's assume that this fine young man really, really does not want to be "like this." He did not make a conscious choice to become DP, and really wishes he wasn't.
O.K., so that seems to be ingredient number 1 as far as getting better. The desire to not be like this.
Continuing on, let's assume this fellow clearly realizes that he is doing something wrong. That his ways of dealing with DP are not getting rid of the problem. But at the same time, he has this sneaking suspicion that what he is doing in the way of surviving...........may be the only thing keeping him alive. He doesn't understand how, but he definitely has that thought. This of course leads to a fear of trying anything different as far as working on the problem. However, and this is a key point for our fine, handsome hero - it may not even matter. His fear of trying some new way of dealing with things may be completely moot. Because, and this is another sensation he has.................he may not only not know how to try something different - it simply may not be possible for him to do so.

He got into this mess for what was likely a very complicated combination of events, predisposition, etc. That's a puzzle that likely could never be solved. However - he did indeed get into this mess. And at a time when he had himSELF to work with. When he was in a much stronger position.
Suddenly one day he finds himself in the twilight zone. He can idenify no specific reason for this change of state. He doesn't know what he "did wrong" to get here. Again, that probably doesn't even matter. Yet still he searches for the reason(s), thinking on some level that by finding the cause the cure can't be far behind. All while thinking on another level that not only does it not really matter what caused it at this point, but it is hopeless to ever be able to figure it out anyway.
Somehow our friendly hottie manages to survive years like this, but only just. He is existing, not much more. He survives by employing whatever distractions he can think of. He is both immersed in the DP, trying to figure it out, while at the same time desperately trying to hide from it.
And and and and, all the while he knows, without a shadow of a doubt, that he simply must do something different. He must effect some kind of significant change in order to get out of the mess he is in.
He doesn't know how. He doesn't even know if any change is possible. It really is hard to teach on old dog new tricks. And if he couldn't come up with healthy coping strategies when he was "healthy", how on earth can he do it now. Now, when he is running on about two of his original eight cylind
He feels that, no matter which way he turns, he is fucked. So he stays frozen to the spot. Afraid, terrified of moving.

So, he 1) does not want to be like this; 2) wants to change to help himself; 3) knows he MUST change in order to help himself; 4) does not know how to change, or if it is even possible to do so at this late date.

Three out of four ain't bad, but it's that fourth one that's most important.

Done playing the devil's advocate now.

p.s. you forgot. You even forgot you forgot.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I'm not expecting anyone to know what the Answer IS for themselves while they're struggling.

But...I am pointing out that most of us know what the Answer ISN'T, yet we keep on obsessing and feeding our obsessions, surrendering to them - some times we try to stop, but 90 per cent of the time we are fueling them. If you do this, you KNOW you do it. You can pretend you don't do it or refuse to admit to me that you do it...but if you do it, you know you do it.

I was the worst. I STARED at myself, at my inner Self constantly, and if someone challenged me, i said I had no choice and I cried said I couldn't help it, etc.....That was not true. Because I didn't even TRY to stop for more than a second at a time.

IT's VERy hard to stop self-monitoring - it's a form of OCD. I KNOW it's hard. And I'm telling you, you better find some way to do it anyway

sc, I just sent you an email! ( I am mortified)

Love,
J
 

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Janine,

Good post. Pretty much what you have told me before. But very good post.

I agree with alot of what the others have said. Like what Cynthia said.
In a way it is like telling someone to not think about the pain that is shooting up his/her arm. It is very hard to just ignore this type of discomfort.

But I totally agree, we NEED to ignore it. But it is very hard when someone is OCD anyway. Ya know?

Also, it seems to just kinna be an automatic response. Like I catch myself thinking about myself, how I feel, if I am connected, etc and didn't even realize I was doing it. And my mind kinna just gives an automatic response. Its very disturbing. Specially when your life is pretty much the same every day during the week anyways. Very easy to just fall back into the trap!

Now about this site. Janine-you and I both know that no one comes here knowing they will find coping methods. Because NO ONE POSTS THEM. 95% of the posts on here are negative and about how bad we feel or how out of it we feel or the new symptom we discovered and lately who is gonna pick on who. This site really is all about people venting. Let's be honest.

I just don't understand how I will ever get myself to snap out of this or teach myself to not think about it. When someone has been dealing with it for more than a few months, it is very hard not to think about it and not get utter fear and crazy, obsessive feelings because of it.

Right?

Kelson
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
For me, I feel that my current DP comes from feeling the same old DP feeling that I had at 12, caused by - Janine I am NOT SURE - a little trauma, but I don't consciously remember it. I just remember having to see psychologists, psychiatrists, feeling so not there, friends who know that I was going to see doctors, having a EEG at 12, crying each night praying to make it go away, this horrible feeling, I have pictures in my mind. Feeling of despair. I don't even know how it went away. It went away.

And.

I remember talking to my boyfriend 3 days before delivery of this DP feeling because of a medical file I had to transfer, and it bring back memories of DP, and I talked to him for the first time, saying that I don't want this to come over.

Then.

When I felt not there at the delivery, I touched my head, convinced something was wrong. I was feeling bizarre, drugged. Then when I went out the hospital, I think about the way I feel not good, but it's at home that I thought : it's like when I was 12. Bang. It's like when I was 12.

That is my personal trauma.

Apologies if it's not in the subject.

Cynthia xxx
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I'm either stubborn or plain stupid,probably both but I honestly don't believe I am capable of handling my dp any better than I presently am.
I keep working,keep busy,confront the places I'm scared of.I even fly!
I rarely speak of my dp.I rarely post here about how I'm coping or not.

When I find my dp almost overwhelming,I tell myself it's only dp,yes I hate it but I keep going,float with it,ride with it etc .
Even when I no longer can feel my body,even when I feel as if I'm not able to walk,talk or function I tell myself to fake it.

As for self obsessing.I don't think I do it a lot.At least not much is related to my dp and all the weird symptoms.
I don't often ponder the universe etc,the meaning of life etc.
My self obessesing if you could call it that is more about how can I fix or change the things in my life that I'm not happy about.

I did not make my dp worse by obsessing about it.In fact I did everything possible not to focus on it and to keep going.
I did not and do not wake in the morning and check to see if it's there.
Before I open my eyes I often say,fuck it's still there,it's just there,checking or no checking.
In fact I often wake,forgetting that I have dp until it grabs me by the throat to let me know...... no such luck.

Maybe I'm in denial.
I want to trust my feelings,my thoughts other wise if somebody were to suggest that I don't feel the way I feel then I might feel crazy.
I don't feel crazy or mad or like I'm losing it.Not really,I might say I fee like it sometimes but I know it's not my reality.

Sometimes I get confused as to what these changes might be?
Changing sounds fine to me.I don't always like the person I am so changing would be a good idea.

Shelly :? :?
 

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JanineBaker said:
It's like a person who is desperate to lose weight and tries all kinds of diets and pills and major exercise routines..but all the while keeps eating 12 doughnuts before bed each night. NO diet in the world is going to make much of a dent.

If you want to try some NEW approach (whether its a med, or a therapy or a new relationship or a new habit or a new way of eating, etc.....) you MUST also be willing to give up the old coping technqiuest that you THINK are helping, but that are clearly not working at all.

it's not enough to ADD the vitamins and soy milk to your diet if you don't STOP eating the doughnuts.

Janine
you said it sister. for me..that is the golden chaliss. i know what to do. i know every coping technique every method to get me out of my endless cycling rut.. but i just dont do any of it. i stick to the temporary highs that give me those fleeting moments of relief. the sugars, the tacobell, the compulsive shopping sprees. the long term solutions are hanging right within my grasp like ripe fruit on a tree, but instead of standing up and reaching.. i sit in my protective nest on the ground feasting on decay. its sickening.. and you are soo soo right.

:cry:
 

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i have changed my life....

my diet has changed...
i am going out more...
i am doing a volenteer job...
i have changed my life style...
i am doing so much to 'focus outward'...
even my thinking has changed dramatically...i do not dwell on dp or dr through the day...i am too busy working and doing things...

but i still do not feel like me...or that i just feel like i am doing things for the sake of it...not because i want to or feel like doing it...

dp and dr has not changed for the best in the slightest...if anything it gets ever so slightly worse each day...

the only thing that does not seem to change is the dp and dr...

that is all that needs to change...
 

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uh how do you find some way to just DO it anyway?

seriously. i hate to be defeatist and all but this jsut made self monitoring a new obsession for me. i know i do it to an extent (my self-monitoring now focuses mroe on what I say to people and what choices i make to do when i have too much free time), and probably a lot, but now with this post of trying to NOT do it i'm sort of tied in knots.

I'm pretty damn busy...taking over 18 hours of school. I try to fill up my time inbetween with checking out the new campus, friends, and going out on the weekends, as well as running errands. I have the night and some other moments alone...like midday napping and such. How am I going to add conscious effort to stop this habit in my mind? It goes away at spontaneous moments but just for a second then I'm so focused on how to keep that good moment going that the self-monitoring doubles it. Why create more hell for myself by trying to stop that force. Why can I not just go about my daily business and if it comes up just be aware of it and be like "ok, that's cool" WHEN i can?
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
If the world was hit by a comet it would force change. Species would die.. people would die.. things would change. You've all been hit by a coment.. some of you remember the hit, i for one dont. Maybee thats the difference..

I have no will to want to be any different from what i am. I am detached.. but i am insightful.

You are all insightful as well.. you will all have relationships deeper than those wrangled by the average person. You will be privi to a view only a few get to have. You will truly understand the genuine poet. You will understand the word genuine. Why seek to give it up?.. haha.. Do you think poe would have been happier to to have been happy? pbbt.

eDfGr33n
"everyone in their own"
 

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Janine, AS you know I've read your great book "Unraveling" and I re-read it at regular intervals. I understand that self-monitoring is something you must NOT do. By and large I don't. I have a very demanding enjoyable job which keeps me focussed on my work not on myself. As a result I know I am much better than I wd otherwise be.
The real crunch is this: I know what not to do. I also know that psychoanalysis is the answer for some people (but not for me; it has caused major breakdown when I've tried it, I've put right everything I can in my life. What's left? I suspect that there must be some "ways" that are common to all or most of us even tho some will have other issues to deal with as well eg unhappy marriage, job etc. Can you suggest any of these ways forward that we can positively try? Thank you as always for your wonderful support.Graham
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hi Graham, good to hear from you!

I don't have a universal answer for how to go about what you're looking for, but I know there MUST be ways to do that inner work besides psychoanalysis.

If I may ask....and I am NOT pushing you to do analysis at all...what was it that got provoked during your analysis that caused the breakdown? Past stuff? Or current feelings/ambiguities, etc?

Whatever it was that provoked it, that is the "stuff" or at least the area you need to work on (in whatever way you find). There are talk therapies that are nowhere near as intense as psychoanalysis, and those might be helpful to you. OR...even if you do it on your own, by writing a journal, by talking with one person you trust..through art or religion...some avenue that makes you feel safe where you might explore some of whatever it was that was "too much" in analysis.

We stay sick because we are avoiding parts of own minds. The more we seal off areas, the harder the mind must work defensively to allow us to keep those areas walled off. It's not that we want to keep our symptoms, but we can't have the cake and eat it too...if we insist on compartmentalizing certain areas of thought, our mind will help us = but the only way it knows "how" to do that is by creating special effects such as dp, anxiety, depression, obsessions, etc.

Make any sense?

Love ya,
Janine
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
sorry but not exactly

avoiding parts of our own mind :?: hmmm,not sure
would it be possible to give us examples :?:

ta
 

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Janine, thanks for your reply :lol: I went twice into psychoanalysis. On both times within about 2-3 months I started to feel very anxious and the feeling grew over maybe a couple of weeks; then suddenly with no obvious immediate reason I went into a state of panic and terror which on both occasions took over a year to get over. So you see my reluctance to give it a 3rd go! As to what had been brought out I really don't know. All that I was aware of was the anxiety, not the "cause". One possibility was that I was talking about death but I wasn't conscious that was bringing out anxiety when I was talking about it. Graham xx
 
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