[35467]

i just found a clinic in turkey they make deep tms and have neuronavigation. there is also a professor for counseling. what you think mg? i could fly instant to turkey and its sooo fucking cheap. rtms 30 euro per session deep tms 80 euro

i could make a whole experiment with those stuff hahahah

https://npistanbul.com/eriskin-psikiyatri/manyetik-uyarim-tedavisi-ttmu

edit: they make deep tms with brainsway. but they have neuronavigation. could that be useful?

Yes, i would not contact them before the french trail is published. They might reject you because the current trails are too small and conflicting. The french trail will also likely bring more information about the condition. So, they will have that trial to look into too.

You can not come to them anyway due to COVID-19. You can likely get your MRI scan done in Turkey too for around 100.euros. In Western Europe or the us it would be around 700-1000.euros. They have a Magstim rTMS equipment and there are no deep coil. They can replicate all current trials. Also much cheaper to live there. The turkeys lire is in free fall. I think it could become very cheap.

The Brainsway deep tms is interesting too. These are h-coils and like helmets designed specific for a condition. I can not see if they have the helmet for OCD. I would like to try that. It is designed to stimulate the medial prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate. These locations are currently seen as the most central if you take the average studies done. Depersonalization have strong OCD components with constant self monitoring and checking that are very close to obesssive compulsive disorder. It could be interesting to try that approach. Again the French trail should in their design do some follow up with fMRI scanners and they might look into regulations done in the prefrontal cortex. If there is a conformation that the medial prefrontal and anterior cingulate plays this role than I think they might be open to try to do deep tms if the have h-coil for OCD.

 

[35467]

Deep tms is typically 4-6.weeks but it stimulates much deeper into the brain to structures that a normal rTMS coil can not access. There is a clinic in Palm Beach that is also a testing site for "Brainsway"and they have in some reports written that they have tried depersonalization but they have not written what they have used as intervention or if there was any positive response in those they treated. I might write to them.

this small video is about deep tms for OCD at the Palm Beach deep TMS Center about a woman having constant OCD systems related to her personality for 30.years.

 

[leminaseri]

Deep tms is typically 4-6.weeks but it stimulates much deeper into the brain to structures that a normal rTMS coil can not access. There is a clinic in Palm Beach that is also a testing site for "Brainsway"and they have in some reports written that they have tried depersonalization but they have not written what they have used as intervention or if there was any positive response in those they treated. I might write to them.

this small video is about deep tms for OCD at the Palm Beach deep TMS Center about a woman having constant OCD systems related to her personality for 30.years.

no i dont have to wait due to covid. im turkish citizen with right of residence in germany. i can fly. first a prof would examinate me and talk with me about my symptoms. then we would decide if its worth a try.

but in which symptoms i have to expect an improving in symptoms with the ocd coil? one of my main symptoms is being in a dream state. and because i did it one time to overcome all my symptoms in the past just with ignoring and live life (it tooks 4 years until full recovery) i dont really make self checking. also not comparing with my former state.

 

[35467]

no i dont have to wait due to covid. im turkish citizen with right of residence in germany. i can fly. first a prof would examinate me and talk with me about my symptoms. then we would decide if its worth a try.

but in which symptoms i have to expect an improving in symptoms with the ocd coil? one of my main symptoms is being in a dream state. and because i did it one time to overcome all my symptoms in the past just with ignoring and live life (it tooks 4 years until full recovery) i dont really make self checking. also not comparing with my former state.

Using a OCD coil is a experiment and you have to have read much into the disorder and brain imaging studies to see that there might be this potential relation. You can not assume they know that or will read so much into It. The reason I would wait for the French trail is because they in their design write they would do a follow up with fMRI scanners in those in the active part of the trail. They would likely look for differences in those who had a response, partial and no response. It will like point towards activity in the prefrontal cortex and likely the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate. If that is the case you would have more information to act on. The dream state is related to the right TPJ/angular gyrus but if you don't have any response from that location it will be difficult to see why today. You could try the right TPJ/angular gyrus and/or the right VLPFC now and if it not of any benefits see what the French trail will show and try "Brainsway" OCD protocol if the French trail shows the activity in the anterior cingulate and dorsomedial prefrontal cortex plays a central role in partial or non response group.

 

[leminaseri]

Using a OCD coil is a experiment and you have to have read much into the disorder and brain imaging studies to see that there might be this potential relation. You can not assume they know that or will read so much into It. The reason I would wait for the French trail is because they in their design write they would do a follow up with fMRI scanners in those in the active part of the trail. They would likely look for differences in those who had a response, partial and no response. It will like point towards activity in the prefrontal cortex and likely the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate. If that is the case you would have more information to act on. The dream state is related to the right TPJ/angular gyrus but if you don't have any response from that location it will be difficult to see why today. You could try the right TPJ/angular gyrus and/or the right VLPFC now and if it not of any benefits see what the French trail will show and try "Brainsway" OCD protocol if the French trail shows the activity in the anterior cingulate and dorsomedial prefrontal cortex plays a central role in partial or non response group.

yeah it sounds seriously plausible. but i have the feeling my symptoms go worse. im not really sure but my symptoms feel every week different and that makes me afraid of if it goes worse therefore i want to start a treatment as soon as possible..

 

[35467]

No, but if you want to have a intervention now then the basis are two locations based on two trails. The right TPJ and or the right VLPFC. The right TPJ and angular gyrus are the same location. This is based partially on neurological patients showing derealisation due to a tumor or seizure from this location and partially brain scans. The French trail uses the term angular gyrus term but their references are the same as the TPJ trail.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02476435

 

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If one looks at "Brainsway" own site over providers your clinic that you refers to should only have a coil for major depression and not OCD. They write that another provider should have both the coil/ helmet for depression and OCD. It could be an error or he just wrote some generalizations about deep tms and only have a coil for depression. The other provider they say should have a coil for OCD is this one. https://www.kemalarikan.com/

 

[leminaseri]

No, but if you want to have a intervention now then the basis are two locations based on two trails. The right TPJ and or the right VLPFC. The right TPJ and angular gyrus are the same location. This is based partially on neurological patients showing derealisation due to a tumor or seizure from this location and partially brain scans. The French trail uses the term angular gyrus term but their references are the same as the TPJ trail.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02476435

what you mean with no xd no for what?

 

[leminaseri]

If one looks at "Brainsway" own site over providers your clinic that you refers to should only have a coil for major depression and not OCD. They write that another provider should have both the coil/ helmet for depression and OCD. It could be an error or he just wrote some generalizations about deep tms and only have a coil for depression. The other provider they say should have a coil for OCD is this one. https://www.kemalarikan.com/

yeah youre right. they have also the h7 coil for ocd, but i dont know if they have neuronavigation. i just wrote them. they will likely have similar prices.

 

[35467]

yeah youre right. they have also the h7 coil for ocd, but i dont know if they have neuronavigation. i just wrote them. they will likely have similar prices.

No, there is no normal set up for neuronavigation in their pictures. It could be that they use a more primitive method that is also cheaper. That the navigation is done separately once and the location is marked with a pen and photos are taken and the mark is then refreshed every time you come.

 

[leminaseri]

No, there is no normal set up for neuronavigation in their pictures. It could be that they use a more primitive method that is also cheaper. That the navigation is done separately once and the location is marked with a pen and photos are taken and the mark is then refreshed every time you come.

i hate my luck. one provider hasnt neuronavigation and the other not that coil.. why always me..

 

[35467]

Ok, but address it as two separate problems. Try the right TPJ/angular gyrus and or the right VLPFC at the one who have neuronavigation at first. The MRI scan will likely be burned on a disk and then you have that problem solved and it can be used other places. If it doesn't work and the French trails scanning part confirms that the medial prefrontal and anterior cingulate plays a central role then it is easier to convince a psychiatrist to try a OCD protocol later.

a resent review of brain scans in dissociative states writes about depersonalization:

3.2.1. Depersonalization/derealization disorder

Most of the studies conducted in DPD patients presented alterations in functional brain activity in frontal gyri, especially the medial prefrontal gyrus, cingulate, and insula (Ketay et al., 2014; Lemche et al., 2007, 2016; Medford et al., 2006, 2016; Weniger et al., 2013). A study by Lemche et al. (2016) tested the neural correlates of inhibitory capacity via a combined Stroop/negative priming task. They found greater activation of the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex and posterior cingulate cortex in DPD patients during the Stroop task (n = 9) as compared to healthy controls (n = 12). Medford et al. (2016) examined brain activation in response to emotive visual stimuli in DPD patients (n = 14) as compared to healthy controls (n = 25). The patient group exhibited lower activity in the secondary visual cortex as well as increased activation in dorsolateral prefrontal cortex and anterior cingulate cortex. Related research (Lemche et al., 2007) demonstrated that DPD patients (n = 9) showed decreased BOLD signals in hypothalamus and amygdala during the processing of happy and sad facial expression compared to healthy subjects (n = 12). However, DPD patients (n = 9) also exhibited a greater activation than healthy controls (n = 10) in response to viewing their own faces vs. that of a stranger in the frontal cortices (anterior cingulate cortex, bilateral medial prefrontal cortex, and left middle frontal gyri) (Ketay et al., 2014). Another study (Medford et al., 2006) indicated lower activation in bilateral frontal areas, bilateral precuneus, and cerebellum during target word recognition task in DPD patients (n = 10) than healthy controls (n = 12).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395620300224?via%3Dihub#bib3

So, Brainsway OCD coil could likely affect this location.