[HalfVenezuelan]

Hi everyone,

I've been putting this together over on r/DPDR and I think it's finally ready to share. It's a collection of lots of helpful resources, research, and recovery info for DPDR, Panic Attacks, Anxiety, OCD, Emotional Numbness, Intrusive Thoughts, Trauma, PTSD, and more. I would love any opinions or suggestions!

r/DPDR's Official Resource Guide

Best wishes.

 

[Peter]

Your "guide" is rubbish. Depersonalization disorder is per definition not a symptom of something else. When depersonalization is a symptom then it is refered to as "secondary depersonalization". You are using the diagnostic criteria from the DSM-5, but you did not even understand them correctly.

Likewise there is no sound evidence for depersonalization being an "ancient evolutionary mechanisms" as you say. Your claim that it was a response to stress, anxiety, and trauma is also way overblown, since there are many other causes for temporary depersonalization and there is no good argument, why it should be regarded as specific to stress. In particular even if depersonalization could be regarded as stress response or "defence mechanism", this would not need to apply to depersonalization disorder similar to the dichotomy of acute and chronic pain, where the former is a defence mechanism, but the latter clearly is not.

There is also no real evidence for the notion that some kind of "loop" of rumination and anxiety is keeping depersonalization alive in depersonalization disorder. This idea has been circulating around even in professional circles for more than 20 years, but this doesn't change the lack of evidence. Psychotherapists even tried in a small study to treat patients with depersonalization disorder using a treatment built on such a theoretical framework, but the results were mediocre at best.

You think you figured depersonalization out, but you don't know a thing about it. You are just another recovery nazi, where it's difficult to decice, whether your hubris or your messiah complex is higher. It's unfortunate that someone like you became moderator of r/dpdr, since you will surely turn it into a censorship hell, where only "positive" posts are permitted and "negative" or "toxic" people - people who don't fit into your "everybody can recovery"-ideology - will get banned. I have been witnessing this for years. It always goes like this with the likes of you.

 

[HalfVenezuelan]

Your "guide" is rubbish. Depersonalization disorder is per definition not a symptom of something else. When depersonalization is a symptom then it is refered to as "secondary depersonalization". You are using the diagnostic criteria from the DSM-5, but you did not even understand them correctly.

Likewise there is no sound evidence for depersonalization being an "ancient evolutionary mechanisms" as you say. Your claim that it was a response to stress, anxiety, and trauma is also way overblown, since there are many other causes for temporary depersonalization and there is no good argument, why it should be regarded as specific to stress. In particular even if depersonalization could be regarded as stress response or "defence mechanism", this would not need to apply to depersonalization disorder similar to the dichotomy of acute and chronic pain, where the former is a defence mechanism, but the latter clearly is not.

There is also no real evidence for the notion that some kind of "loop" of rumination and anxiety is keeping depersonalization alive in depersonalization disorder. This idea has been circulating around even in professional circles for more than 20 years, but this doesn't change the lack of evidence. Psychotherapists even tried in a small study to treat patients with depersonalization disorder using a treatment built on such a theoretical framework, but the results were mediocre at best.

You think you figured depersonalization out, but you don't know a thing about it. You are just another recovery nazi, where it's difficult to decice, whether your hubris or your messiah complex is higher. It's unfortunate that someone like you became moderator of r/dpdr, since you will surely turn it into a censorship hell, where only "positive" posts are permitted and "negative" or "toxic" people - people who don't fit into your "everybody can recovery"-ideology - will get banned. I have been witnessing this for years. It always goes like this with the likes of you.

Well thanks for the criticism and I would love some links if you have them but please don’t rush to villainize me or make big horrible assumptions. I don’t remove posts - since I started I’ve only removed a single comment and it was someone who was openly advocating for someone else to self harm. Also there were absolutely zero resources there before last week - everyone was just posting into the void without being heard. I’ll leave here now, thanks.

 

[Aridity]

Your "guide" is rubbish. Depersonalization disorder is per definition not a symptom of something else. When depersonalization is a symptom then it is refered to as "secondary depersonalization". You are using the diagnostic criteria from the DSM-5, but you did not even understand them correctly.

Likewise there is no sound evidence for depersonalization being an "ancient evolutionary mechanisms" as you say. Your claim that it was a response to stress, anxiety, and trauma is also way overblown, since there are many other causes for temporary depersonalization and there is no good argument, why it should be regarded as specific to stress. In particular even if depersonalization could be regarded as stress response or "defence mechanism", this would not need to apply to depersonalization disorder similar to the dichotomy of acute and chronic pain, where the former is a defence mechanism, but the latter clearly is not.

There is also no real evidence for the notion that some kind of "loop" of rumination and anxiety is keeping depersonalization alive in depersonalization disorder. This idea has been circulating around even in professional circles for more than 20 years, but this doesn't change the lack of evidence. Psychotherapists even tried in a small study to treat patients with depersonalization disorder using a treatment built on such a theoretical framework, but the results were mediocre at best.

You think you figured depersonalization out, but you don't know a thing about it. You are just another recovery nazi, where it's difficult to decice, whether your hubris or your messiah complex is higher. It's unfortunate that someone like you became moderator of r/dpdr, since you will surely turn it into a censorship hell, where only "positive" posts are permitted and "negative" or "toxic" people - people who don't fit into your "everybody can recovery"-ideology - will get banned. I have been witnessing this for years. It always goes like this with the likes of you.

Why so harsh? Have you done any better yourself TDX? It's like you don't want to recover

 

[Peter]

Why so harsh? Have you done any better yourself TDX? It's like you don't want to recover

Your post perfectly justifies my reaction. He makes a "guide" full of faulty claims and false promises and once I criticize this, you victim-blame me for allegedly not wanting to recover, which, by the way, is also a typical behavior of recovery nazis.

 

[Aridity]

Your post perfectly justifies my reaction. He makes a "guide" full of faulty claims and false promises and once I criticize this, you victim-blame me for allegedly not wanting to recover, which, by the way, is also a typical behavior of recovery nazis.

I haven't recovered myself so I am not a recovery nazi. You are full of resentment which I understand, it's hard to deal with people who come up with a guide or a simple explanation yet we are still here suffering after all these years.

 

[HalfVenezuelan]

I feel like I should add that my main goal was to collect as many dpdr-related resources in one place so people could find them easily. I ask for suggestions because I don’t want to get anything wrong and I want to see if anyone has ideas for stuff I might have missed. I’m not claiming to be a guru and have not once adopted the stance of “it’s your fault not trying hard enough to recover”. Thank you for pointing out some flaws in it.

 

[NoDevils]

Depersonalization is a syndrome. It's usually caused by or "secondary to" another condition, so the guide is sort of right about that though its concepts and terms are confused. Depersonalization-Derealization Disorder is a DSM-5 diagnosis that's made when no other mental disorders are present. This makes the diagnosis very rare, especially when mental health professionals use the "not otherwise specified" diagnosis, for example Mood Disorder NOS, Personality Disorder NOS. Many members of the depersonalization community don't want to accept that their depersonalization is probably secondary to another condition. This is a form of denial.

 

[Peter]

I feel like I should add that my main goal was to collect as many dpdr-related resources in one place so people could find them easily. I ask for suggestions because I don’t want to get anything wrong and I want to see if anyone has ideas for stuff I might have missed. I’m not claiming to be a guru and have not once adopted the stance of “it’s your fault not trying hard enough to recover”. Thank you for pointing out some flaws in it.

If I give you the benefit of doubt that you really want to help people, then you come up as too gullible. Otherwise I can't explain how you could just swallow the myths about depersonalization you just pass through to other people, of whom many were created by recovery nazis simply for the reason of making money off sufferers. Unfortunately depersonalization disorder isn't just some kind of boogie man that you can simply cast out of your mind by ignoring him. It's a severe mental disorder that is likely to be just as complex as depression and schizophrenia, which despite decades of effort and billions of dollars on research are far away from being understood.

I think in the depersonalization community the problem isn't that much about locating already existing ressources. You just need to read the english Wikipedia article and you already know most of what is circulating about depersonalization disorder, since all that (mis-)information has been orbiting around the same things for the last 20 years. The problem is the lack of critical thinking and the unwillingless to challenge the prevailing status quo of whom sufferers do not benefit, but only shady professionals and recovery nazis. And the important first step would be to admit, that we don't understand depersonalization and most will never recover from it, unless the status quo changes.

 

[Peter]

Depersonalization is a syndrome. It's usually caused by or "secondary to" another condition mental or physical, so the guide is sort of right about that. Depersonalization-Derealization Disorder is a DSM-5 diagnosis that's made when no other mental disorders are present. This makes the diagnosis very rare, especially when mental health professionals use the "not otherwise specified" diagnosis, for example Mood Disorder NOS, personality disorder NOS. The depersonalization community typically don't want to accept that their depersonalization is probably secondary to another condition. This is a form of denial.

There were multiple studies on this matter with samples of people who suffered from continuous depersonalization. In all of them about 2/3 of the participants were deemed to satisfy the diagnostic criteria of depersonalization disorder and only 1/3 to suffer from secondary depersonalization. At least empirical evidence suggests the opposite of your claim: Depersonalization disorder is not only common, but also might make up the majority of people who suffer from continuous depersonalization symptoms.

And even if it was really almost always secondary, this wouldn't necessarily mean that addressing the disorder that started it would necessarily be enough. After all catatonia is secondary to several mental and neurological disorders, but still it's not ignored with the "just treat the cause"-argument.

In addition you also misunderstood the DSM-5. You say: "Depersonalization-Derealization Disorder is a DSM-5 diagnosis that's made when no other mental disorders are present." But the DSM-5 says in criterion E: "The disturbance is not better explained by another mental disorder, such as schizophrenia, panic disorder, major depressive disorder, acute stress disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder, or another dissociative disorder". There is obviously a difference between "not better explained by" and "not present".

 

[NoDevils]

There were multiple studies on this matter with samples of people who suffered from continuous depersonalization. In all of them about 2/3 of the participants were deemed to satisfy the diagnostic criteria of depersonalization disorder and only 1/3 to suffer from secondary depersonalization. At least empirical evidence suggests the opposite of your claim: Depersonalization disorder is not only common, but also might make up the majority of people who suffer from continuous depersonalization symptoms.

And even if it was really almost always secondary, this wouldn't necessarily mean that addressing the disorder that started it would necessarily be enough. After all catatonia is secondary to several mental and neurological disorders, but still it's not ignored with the "just treat the cause"-argument.

When we're talking about psychological disorders we need to be content with ambiguity because they're not diagnosed in a lab like infections and cancers.

That being said I'm not up on the science of depersonalization epidemiology. I'm just going by experience. Everyone I've met with depersonalization has some kind of depression, anxiety, or neurological condition. Acceptance and treating comorbidities is currently the best course of action for the most people, assuming appropriate physical tests and examinations have been performed.

 

[NoDevils]

If I give you the benefit of doubt that you really want to help people, then you come up as too gullible. Otherwise I can't explain how you could just swallow the myths about depersonalization you just pass through to other people, of whom many were created by recovery nazis simply for the reason of making money off sufferers. Unfortunately depersonalization disorder isn't just some kind of boogie man that you can simply cast out of your mind by ignoring him. It's a severe mental disorder that is likely to be just as complex as depression and schizophrenia, which despite decades of effort and billions of dollars on research are far away from being understood.

I think in the depersonalization community the problem isn't that much about locating already existing ressources. You just need to read the english Wikipedia article and you already know most of what is circulating about depersonalization disorder, since all that (mis-)information has been orbiting around the same things for the last 20 years. The problem is the lack of critical thinking and the unwillingless to challenge the prevailing status quo of whom sufferers do not benefit, but only shady professionals and recovery nazis. And the important first step would be to admit, that we don't understand depersonalization and most will never recover from it, unless the status quo changes.

Sorry for multiposting.

You're pushing your own perspective, the same thing you accuse him of. I won't call it an agenda because I'm sure you're viewing your perspective as the objective truth, but it's not true that "most people don't get better." You want to talk about harmful views while saying this? Most people temporarily have depersonalization and, more importantly, most chronic sufferers experience partial alleviation of symptoms and learn to function with the disorder. I also reject the rosy tinted view that we were all feeling great and solidly grounded before depersonalization, not that you're necessarily implying such a thing.

 

[Peter]

You're pushing your own perspective, the same thing you accuse him of.

No. I did not "accuse" him for pushing his own perspective, but disinformation that is harmful.

I'm sure you're viewing your perspective as the objective truth, but it's not true that "most people don't get better."

If it was incorrect, how do you explain that in almost all large clinical samples sufferers have a mean illness duration of about 15 years? Isn't that something that would be expected it most don't recover?

You want to talk about harmful views while saying this?

Why is this harmful?

Most people temporarily have depersonalization

What "depersonalization" do you mean? The hypothetical "normal depersonalization" that is believed to be experienced by everybody in his life for a few seconds to maybe a minute? Or depersonalization disorder itself?

and, more importantly, most chronic sufferers experience partial alleviation of symptoms

...which you know from where?

 

[NoDevils]

No. I did not "accuse" him for pushing his own perspective, but disinformation that is harmful.



If it was incorrect, how do you explain that in almost all large clinical samples sufferers have a mean illness duration of about 15 years? Isn't that something that would be expected it most don't recover?



Why is this harmful?



What "depersonalization" do you mean? The hypothetical "normal depersonalization" that is believed to be experienced by everybody in his life for a few seconds to maybe a minute? Or depersonalization disorder itself?



...which you know from where?

You're more interested in being combative than learning. I already wasted my time here with another doomer like this. Your recovery is your responsibility. I believe you should get all the help possible but I draw a line at trying to drag others down.

 

[HalfVenezuelan]

Some really helpful info amidst this, thanks guys, will make adjustments when I get the chance. Peter, talking down to me and projecting/assuming what kind of person I am is really not helpful. “Disinformation” assumes intention - I am going based off of resources that helped me, and resources that helped me understand why the resources that helped me did so. If I get something wrong on the scientific information side, I admit it and will make adjustments, but immediately rushing to berate me for a good-faith effort to help people find resources is not doing anyone any favors. Most of the rest of the guide is just links to content done by licensed professionals regarding common dpdr causes/fuel.

 

[Phantasm]

@HalfVenezuelan,

I think people can come to self-identify with DPDR, so that they become almost a walking vessel of the condition. So when that condition is "undermined," by the outrageous suggestion that their situation could actually be improved, they feel it as a personal attack, and respond accordingly.

That's why people always say to pursue any other interests, to build and reinforce a more fulfilling sense of self based on what they would like to do and be, so that the DPDR identity shrinks away as no longer relevant or necessary.

Your guide looks like it contains good links and resources. If you post it in the Start Here or Media section it will be around much longer than in Discussion.