[yoyo]

The purpose of this message is to show and explain that God lives. The purpose is not to prove it, because I do not believe that it is possible. Faith is not things which are visible with eyes, and it is not the perfect knowledge of all things. However, I am using an eternal and true principle in order to show that God lives: opposition. The hardest thing to figure out and understand is the relation beetween that principle and the fact that God lives. I now explain the principle.

Principle: There is opposition in all things.

That principle is an eternal and permanent truth. That shows that everything has its opposit. Otherwise, we would not be aware of anything in this life.

Imagine that you live in a world where there is just one possible temperature: +25 celcius. That is definitively warm. If you never have been exposed to a lower temperature, how can then you know that warm is warm? You have to experience colder temperature in order to be aware that the actual temperature +25 celcius is warm. Otherwise, you can not possibly know what warm is. "Warm" has an opposite: "cold". That is the same thing with all things. These are some more exemple of opposites: sad and happy, sugar and salt, good and evil, etc...

If everything has an opposite, then injustice (unfairness) has also and opposite, and that is justice. We just said that if there is just one possible temperature (+25c), then "cold" does not exist and it is not possible to know that warm is, in fact, warm. We all know that this life is unfair. People have different kinds of lives. Some are more sick than other, others are criminals and do not follow the law which everyone has to follow. Some people follow the law and do their best in order to be good persons. So if, as I said, we all know that this life is unfair, then there is an opposite to it: that is justice. Yes, justice exists!! The problem is that we do not se much justice in this unperfect world. Men are able to judge perfectly. There is then no perfect justice in this world. Imperfect justice can not be justice, it remains injustice. But someone has to be able to judge perfect, otherwise injustice does not exist either. If one opposite is missing, then we are not aware of the other opposite. But everybody is aware that this world is unfair. The consequence is that someone has to judge perfectly. Who is that person? Yes, it is God.

 

[Monkeydust]

This is a little confused.

"Hot" and "cold" are not everlasting, eternal and intrinsic qualities of objective reality, but rather conditions humans denote according to collective experience. 100 degrees is no more necessarily hot than 0 degrees, it's simply conventional to call it so because it "matches" what we experience.

The same might be said of justice - probably even more so, in fact - because not only is it a largely human construct but it is one which, in contrast to "hot" and "cold", has changed considerably over time. What was just to the Greeks is very often not just today, and vice versa.

Thus you argument seeks to impose some absolute definition of justice which A) is a human construct irrelevant to intrinsic objective reality and more importantly B) presupposes some absolute and unchanging notion of what "justice" and "injustice" are - which, of course, you derive from your God and your religion that follows.

Not to mention the fact that it just doesn't make sense. Why does it follow that because of injustice we need some just being, i.e. God? Couldn't it be restricted to conceptual terms of "justice" without reference to some divine authority?

I can't help but find it all a bit wishy-washy.

 

[yoyo]

I wrote:

"Men are able to judge perfectly." I forgot to write "not" before able. Sorry for that.

 

[Monkeydust]

Unfortunately, that nice one-line quip doesn't help to elaborate on the matters at hand.

 

[Phill]

You either have Faith or you don't. If you do, matters like these become
so much less confusing.
Read the Bible, God's word, Love Him with all your STRENGH, SOUL, HEART and MIND, and quit trying to understand Him and His principles with your MIND alone because you never will and it will never make
sense that way.
I believe this is why you are a little confused Monkeydust.

Spiritual understanding of truth comes only by divine revelation and an open heart.
We do need our minds to understand the truth, but in combination
with our HEART and SPIRIT.
Years ago before i had faith, i sounded very much like you.

But when one acknowledges one's need for Almighty God to be part of
his everyday life, as yoyo has, one cannot help but continually make
reference to Him.

 

[Monkeydust]

Nah...

I think embracing stuff with your heart and soul, and abandoning your mind, reason, rationality, and common sense in turn, is entirely the wrong way to go.

This isn't just true for religion, but is true for a number of movements throughout history. Take Nazism, many of those who followed it at the time later described the strong emotional element of the doctrine, the speeches and so on, and how they were emotionally drawn to embrace it while abandoning their reason. It may have "felt good" at the time, but it wasn't the right or even the rational thing to do.

The same has to go for religion. For something that shapes your entire way of life, it seems beyond my comprehension not to subject if to rational scrutiny. You need to actually THINK whether or not it makes sense, not just "feel" that it does and precede forthwith.

I suppose this goes to the heart of the issue, faith is a matter which you can only appreciate if you're willing to abandon your rationality and give in to the emotional appeal. Some folks are willing to do that. I'm not one of them.

 

[Guest]

I agree with monkeydust that logic and reason have their place and should be put to use in all situations. There is a saying when it comes to things like religion and that is: "do not be credulous, convince yourselves." I think convincing is the logic part of the process of deciding to have faith or not. I believe alot of people do not convince themselves at all and just follow their religion/church like a sheep follows the shepard of the flock. But there are those who do apply logic and ask for the unknown spiritual element to convince them that it exists. Nobody has ever really brought that up and sais that you should never ask for convincing but just always have faith. Well, if I can't be convinced then I mine as well call myself a sheep. With that being said, I do believe in God just because of what I see outside and I have experienced miracles that no one could comprehend unless they have walked in my shoes.

 

[Martinelv]

Phil said:

You either have Faith or you don't.

No. It should be re-worded thus: ' You either need to believe in imaginary friends, or you don't.'

 

[Phill]

Phil said:

You either have Faith or you don't.

No. It should be re-worded thus: ' You either need to believe in imaginary friends, or you don't.'

What's your source for such a statement?

 

[Martinelv]

My source ? Reality.

 

[Guest]

::watches tirelessly as the debate to whether God exists goes on between martinelv and others::

The one thing that will drive you even more crazy than DP is trying to convert people or make them believe what you believe.

Now I must get changed into my nice suit so I can go door to door and preach like the good jehovas witness that I am.

 

[Martinelv]

I'm not trying to prove that god doesn't exist. It's a waste of time. I'm just waiting for just one scrap of evidence to justify all this whoo-ha. That's all. 8)

My offer of $4000 still stands.

 

[Guest]

You are a smart guy when it comes to debating Martin. Somebody could write a brilliant 900 page thesis trying to prove this 'mess' and you'd still find a way to rebuke every single bit of information written down. That $4000 isn't going anywhere.

 

[Martinelv]

Not at all. I have a thin veneer of intelligence with covers a seething mass of ignorance. But that pales into insignificance when we're talking about imaginary friends. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Phill]

Martin, you WILL need Jesus one day, and one day you will also see Him, face to face.
I just pray that you meet Him as Savior and not as judge.
Because meeting Him as judge will no doubt cause your bowel
to expand and release a crap the size of jupiter.
You'll realize how sinful, filthy and rotten you are (as we all are, unless we've been forgiven) before the face of a Holy and righteous God.

You'll also see just how much He LOVES you, the fire of His LOVE,
and how much He wants you to be with Him.

I'm praying for you that you'll see Him as Savior on that day and
you can't stop me from doing it.

 

[Martinelv]

Yeah, OK Phil. If you say so.

 

[Guest]

Martin, you WILL need Jesus one day, and one day you will also see Him, face to face.
I just pray that you meet Him as Savior and not as judge.
Because meeting Him as judge will no doubt cause your bowel
to expand and release a crap the size of jupiter.
You'll realize how sinful, filthy and rotten you are (as we all are, unless we've been forgiven) before the face of a Holy and righteous God.

The exact reason I stopped going to church and following christianity.

 

[Scattered]

The fire of his love will cleanse you for all eternity. When your skin melts from your bones, and the scent of burning flesh fills the air you'll realize how much he cares.

 

[Guest]

Geez, I believe in a God, but I don't believe his intention is to fry your skin and let your bones burn in eternal hellfire and brimstone. If I want somebody like that, I can find them right here on planet earth in large quantities.

 

[Martinelv]

Incidently Phil, that bit about crapping Jupiter out of my arse. Was that meant to be funny, or was it a seepage of the seething vitriol that lurks beneath the conscious of most religious fundamentalists? I just want to make sure, because if your god does exist, he'll have a merry old time deciding which arsehole of mine to crap Jupiter out of.

I would have thought, with your god's delicious sense of spite, he would have chosen Uranus. :wink:



I am on the threshold of moderating myself. Bad Martin.