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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey, this is something I struggled over before and fortunately got over, but now its affecting me again and I see no way out.

DP/DR makes you question everything and I keep questioning free will and if we even have it or if it's just an illusion and I'm so afraid. Someone was speaking about it with me and I see their points that free will isn't real and feel like I can't dispute it and it just makes me wonder what the point of living is then?

I feel like we're all just robots and we just make the decisions we make based on who we are as people and whatever decision we make isn't really a choice. It's hard to explain.

I used to console myself and tell myself that we do have free will, there's nothing stopping us from making any decision, we're just inclined to make decisions that fit us, but now I feel hopeless and like it isn't true.

Anyone else been through this? Please help me, I'm at the end of my rope here, feel truly hopeless...
 

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Can I pose a question to you?

Do you think there is a difference between a world where free will exists and world where it doesn't, but we act as if it does?

Could you accept that life could be worth living, and that you are human and not a robot, even if free will did not exist?

Why is life only worth living if we possess free will?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Can I pose a question to you?
Do you think there is a difference between a world where free will exists and world where it doesn't, but we act as if it does?
Could you accept that life could be worth living, and that you are human and not a robot, even if free will did not exist?
Why is life only worth living if we possess free will?
Biology isn't the thing that makes us human. I don't see the point in living in a world where everything we do, all the decisions we make, are predictable. Where the decisions we make aren't really even choices. How can we celebrate when someone does something good if it's not even their choice? How can we blame someone for doing something bad if they have no free will and therefore they didn't chose to do the the bad thing?
 

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I absolutely see your point in those things, and they are certainly major aspects of how we view ourselves as humans in society.

But is that really the only reason you can see for living? Celebrating accomplishments and punishing malfeasance? After all, I'm sure you've celebrated yours and other people's birthdays before you had this free will issue, and didn't see a problem with that--perhaps even enjoyed it and had fun---despite the fact that you didn't do anything to merit the celebration.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I absolutely see your point in those things, and they are certainly major aspects of how we view ourselves as humans in society.
But is that really the only reason you can see for living? Celebrating accomplishments and punishing malfeasance? After all, I'm sure you've celebrated yours and other people's birthdays before you had this free will issue, and didn't see a problem with that--perhaps even enjoyed it and had fun---despite the fact that you didn't do anything to merit the celebration.
But now that I've realised these things nothing has any meaning. Nothing matters. I don't get to be angry when someone makes a bad decision, I don't get to be happy when someone does something nice for me, because they didn't choose to.
 

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But now that I've realised these things nothing has any meaning. Nothing matters. I don't get to be angry when someone makes a bad decision, I don't get to be happy when someone does something nice for me, because they didn't choose to.
Doesn't the DP / DR itself sort of destroy the meaning inherent in those actions anyways? I mean, I have that issue too, but it has nothing to do with freewill. Though the issue has made me wonder whether or not I could actually find a defendant guilty if I were on a jury (fortunately that won't happen...the cognitive fog alone makes me an indesirable and incompetent juror).
 

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Also, check out this video. Maybe you've heard this all before, i don't know. But perhaps it will make you see the issue in a different light?

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Doesn't the DP / DR itself sort of destroy the meaning inherent in those actions anyways? I mean, I have that issue too, but it has nothing to do with freewill. Though the issue has made me wonder whether or not I could actually find a defendant guilty if I were on a jury (fortunately that won't happen...the cognitive fog alone makes me an indesirable and incompetent juror).
Not necessarily, I don't have those symptoms of DP or DR anymore, I'm just struggling with existential questions like this now.
 

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I believe this question is philosophical, and I have never been much good there. I am currently reading a book "Genome" which proves that peas did not have free will to have smooth or wrinkled pods. That trait was determined by a particular gene on a particular chromosome.

Perhaps a more meaningful question would be "What does it mean to be human?" Of course, we did not have our choice of species. Being human gives us certain choices, but it is all in the context of being human. Will always has limitations.

Free will suggests infinite capability. No thing has that. Isn't it enough to live in avoidance of pain, while keeping the ole belly full?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I believe this question is philosophical, and I have never been much good there. I am currently reading a book "Genome" which proves that peas did not have free will to have smooth or wrinkled pods. That trait was determined by a particular gene on a particular chromosome.
Perhaps a more meaningful question would be "What does it mean to be human?" Of course, we did not have our choice of species. Being human gives us certain choices, but it is all in the context of being human. Will always has limitations.
Free will suggests infinite capability. No thing has that. Isn't it enough to live in avoidance of pain, while keeping the ole belly full?
Certain things I understand are out of our control, and I understand that we make decisions based on what we think is best because if we didn't then we'd just be making lots of random decisions that mean nothing, but I cant handle the fact that we don't make our own decisions. If someone were to hurt someone else how can we be mad at them if they don't have any free will to do any different? If someone does something nice for us how can we feel thankful if they haven't made the choice to do something nice?
 

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I think to the answer to this issue really depends on how we define "free will", because after all, we do make decisions on some level, at a conscious level at least, and acknowledge that that is what we are doing. At a deeper level, it may be true that we don't "truly" have free will. But we have always acted as if we do, because we have always intuitively perceived ourselves as acting out of our own free will. That's why we debate issues of morality and such. Do you feel there is no way you can go back to living your life that way? Can you acknowledge that--at some level at least--people do make decisions?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I think to the answer to this issue really depends on how we define "free will", because after all, we do make decisions on some level, at a conscious level at least, and acknowledge that that is what we are doing. At a deeper level, it may be true that we don't "truly" have free will. But we have always acted as if we do, because we have always intuitively perceived ourselves as acting out of our own free will. That's why we debate issues of morality and such. Do you feel there is no way you can go back to living your life that way? Can you acknowledge that--at some level at least--people do make decisions?
I guess my definition of free will is the ability to make any choice. I understand that our choices are largely based on us and our surroundings and experiences etc and that the decisions we make have gotta be based on something, but I don't like thinking about that fact that we may not be able to make choices and choose to do the right or wrong thing. How can I judge a person for doing something wrong when they have no choice? How can o be mad at someone for hurting me if they don't really have a choice?

What do you mean we do make decisions at some level?

And I really truly do feel there's not point to anything anymore if free will doesn't exist. Honestly what's the point if I'm not in control of my own life? What's he point if I'm on some sort of predetermined path?
 

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What I mean I is that, facially, we do perceive ourselves as making decisions.

For example, when you ask yourself "why is life living, if there is no free will, then we are all on a predestined path?" Did you really have no choice but to end up at that conclusion? Was it predestined for you to end up believing that life is not worth living? And, most importantly, were you compelled to utter it on this forum, at the precise time that you did, in the manner that you did? At some level the answer to these questions may all be "yes", but I'm sure there were many times you asked yourself "should I respond? Should I wait? Maybe I should sleep on it?" That's what I mean by "on some level" we all make decisions. Because we perceive ourselves, and talk about our life as a series of decisions that we make.

Does that make sense?
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
What I mean I is that, facially, we do perceive ourselves as making decisions.

For example, when you ask yourself "why is life living, if there is no free will, then we are all on a predestined path?" Did you really have no choice but to end up at that conclusion? Was it predestined for you to end up believing that life is not worth living? And, most importantly, were you compelled to utter it on this forum, at the precise time that you did, in the manner that you did? At some level the answer to these questions may all be "yes", but I'm sure there were many times you asked yourself "should I respond? Should I wait? Maybe I should sleep on it?" That's what I mean by "on some level" we all make decisions. Because we perceive ourselves, and talk about our life as a series of decisions that we make.

Does that make sense?
I know what you're saying, but this literally still means we have no choice, so yeah, I still feel the same about this just because we think we have a choice it doesn't mean that we do. This is honestly a hopeless case.
 

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So, for you, then, the only thing that makes life worth living is whether you feel capable of condemning someone for wrong-doing, or praising them for a job well done? Is there nothing else? Enjoying nature, movies, a good book? I mean, I can't enjoy those things anymore, but you said you didn't have that issue with DP/DR anymore, so do those things not make life worth living?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So, for you, then, the only thing that makes life worth living is whether you feel capable of condemning someone for wrong-doing, or praising them for a job well done? Is there nothing else? Enjoying nature, movies, a good book? I mean, I can't enjoy those things anymore, but you said you didn't have that issue with DP/DR anymore, so do those things not make life worth living?
I only used those as examples of what I mean. But life seems pretty pointless if we can't even make decisions, if we're not even in control. If I can't even control my future or my own actions.
 

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I only used those as examples of what I mean. But life seems pretty pointless if we can't even make decisions, if we're not even in control. If I can't even control my future or my own actions.
Understood.

Can I ask...does knowing or believing that you no longer possess free will change the way you act? I don't know if I've phrased that well. But have you observed a change in your own behavior since reflecting and coming to a conclusion on free will?
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Understood.

Can I ask...does knowing or believing that you no longer possess free will change the way you act? I don't know if I've phrased that well. But have you observed a change in your own behavior since reflecting and coming to a conclusion on free will?
I'm trying not to think about it too much and when I don't think about it I'm able to act normal, but when I remember it I'm filled with anxiety and like a sudden realisation that everything I do isn't literally pointless and I'm not in control and I don't have the right to feel angry or happy when it comes to other people's actions so. Yeah I guess I'm able to act normal, but I'm filled w/ anxiety and dread and hopelessness whenever I do think about it.
 

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This is a philosophical question that has no meaning in our everyday lives and really no human meaning at all. There’s no difference between free will and the “illusion” of free will, from a human perspective. It is just a debate about how the external world operates, which is of course well beyond our control. It does not matter in the slightest. Remember you a just a product of the universe.
 
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