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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was just randomly watching a documentary on sharks and how when flipped upside down they go into a state of tonic immobility basically becoming temporarily unconcious/paralyzed. After watching this i went onto the internet and searched up tonic immobilty in humans and this came up....
 

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I tried uploading a photo but it disnt work. Anyways it just describes that this reaponse in humans just like in sharks is a survival mechanism that autonomically kicks in and in the human world is called dissociation dp/dr.
 

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Yeah its the same thing said in regards to somatic experiencing and the polar bear. The theory is when animals are in a situation that is very dangerous and thus traumatic they either fight flee or if those options are not available "freeze" ... then all of this pent up energy is repressed in us and causes all kind of problems...and somatic experiencing is the art of letting it out....slow enough that it doesnt overwhelm us.

 

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Yeh the freeze response is very relevant. Can't remember where I saw it but saw the word 'depersonalization' actually mentioned in a lecture on youtube when in the freeze response. I feel like the muscles in my heart/mid region are frozen. And this makes me numb and not emotionally involved in the world, therfore have terrible attention issues.
 

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Having experienced freezing, shame, dissociation and DP-DR -- all of which link back to early childhood trauma -- I've become convinced the source of my mental illness, as well as that of my sibling's, is the result of growing up in a dysfunctional household with a father who was highly temperamental with serious anger problems and a mother who was essentially codependent, both of whom were never around that much. I really think my DP is a result of experiencing trauma when I was really young, maybe even as an infant, simply because I've had huge problems with freezing, shutting down, having a desire to run somewhere, etc., over the years. I imagine even if I could at least talk or walk I would have tried to express myself to my parents in some way, but instead I kept silent and internalized everything.
 

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Yeh the freeze response is very relevant. Can't remember where I saw it but saw the word 'depersonalization' actually mentioned in a lecture on youtube when in the freeze response. I feel like the muscles in my heart/mid region are frozen. And this makes me numb and not emotionally involved in the world, therfore have terrible attention issues.
Have you tried David Berceli's TRE exercises? They are meant to target the areas where this tension is stored and release it.
 

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Soz I never replied to this. Just so happens I have started TRE again recently. Early days but seems to be making me feel more embodied. Get tired after so sleep better. I tried it before but didn't quite exhaust my muscles as much as I should so didn't get a full shake on. Now I am doing it a lot more throughly in the morning and throughout the day get tension in my core releasing.. and diaphragm. I do it once thoroughly in the morning then a mini one in the evening. Will update here if it brings any more progress
 

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I think this info is important found here: http://www.stevehaines.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/dissociation-v8.pdf

It says that the freeze response is PARAsympathetic and causes DISSOCIATION. So, we need to find methods to unfreeze core muscles in the pelvis, legs and psoas would be my opinion. I think running and weight lifting in the legs may help but also TRE. I have been doing this for 4days now and am feeling more embodied. Will keep at it twice a day for a few weeks

Signs of parasympathetic activation: freeze or dissociation or hypoarousal

• Tonic immobility

• Numbing

• Dissociation

• Analgesia - this may be in the whole body, one side or one limb or a part of one limb

• Inability to move a limb, dreams of not being able to move (one client called this 'sleep paralysis')

• Inability to perceive the outline of the body (for example hands or feet feeling too big or too small or too close or far away)

• Inability to feel the skin as a sharply defined edge

• Sense of floating (this may be the whole body off the treatment couch, legs higher than the body or vice versa, or a sense of tilting from one side to the other)

• Sense of disconnection (commonly from below the neck or diaphragm or pelvis or feet)

• Low muscle tone (hypermobility)

• Emotionally this may be experienced as depression, withdrawal, feelings of unreality or not knowing, and lethargy. Dissociation can be a very frightening experience but can also be experienced as a dreamy, floaty, pleasant event - it is a place where you feel no pain. Questions for freeze

• Do you bump into things? (Are you clumsy or knock things over or collect bruises)?

• Do you drift off easily? (Do you have a sense of being detached, have you ever been described as being in the clouds or spacey, do you find it hard to concentrate or do you drift off easily, have you ever been described as dreamy?)
 

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Interesting. I've been getting back into working out myself, just because I've heard it could help. I'm on a tight budget, is there a way to find TRE exercises that won't cost anything? Like on Youtube or something?
 

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I've been using this one with results:


It is not the official or full TRE but it get's the tremors going. You have to not DO the shaking yourself, let the body take over. It is very odd I know :) but my body is getting a lot more relaxed. I do it in the morning, then repeat the last 2 exercises again in the evening. Have been sleeping a lot better since
 

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Something I have just read that is worth noting is that during the freeze response and immobility, the body is flooded with dynorphin. They have very large stores that are only released with a big threshold. So dynorphin is released and causes the body to shit down. What receptor does dynorphin act on? The kappa opioid receptor. So looks like the idea of a kappa antagonist being the cure for DPD may be true. I don't think there are any drugs that do this, the only natural thing that does is apigenin, found in high amounts in chamomile tea
 

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10493099

This study points to THC in cannabis causing the pain relieving effects by increasing dynorphin (kappa agonist). So we definitely do not want THC or the like in our systems. However, mine as well as many others DPD was triggered by SKUNK. Skunk has high THC and low CBD. Now this study suggests CB1 receptors and the release of dynorphin are interlinked. So it may well have been that the panic attack and ridiculous amount of THC I had in my system released dynorphin which started the freeze response in my body. This (hypothetically) decreased my CB1 receptors AND kappa receptors, decreasing the threshold needed to reach this state of dissociation related to the freeze response.

So basically I need a CB1 antagonist to increase CB1 receptors that will then increase kappa receptors as dynorphin wont be released/interact as much through this pathway. Now. The CBD has been thought to be a CB1 antagonist which hypothetically would increase CB1 receptors.... so this is the next thing I am trying. Again, not a cure.. just as a hope for SOME relief
 

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Yes, you are right the kappa agonist can make a state a depersonalisation. A drug like ketamine also acts on the kappa receptor and the depersonalisation effect come from that. It also have other properties that does that the aversive effect is not so profound so the effect becomes more pleasant in most. 20.years ago ketamine was given to anorexics and to avoid the dissociative effect 20.mg of nalmefene was given twice a day before infusion of ketamine. It blocked the effect. Regarding cannabis. It have an effect on all the opiate receptors including the kappa receptor. It is like to be a partiel agonist on kappa and that is why it normally have a mild dissociative effect. Studies of Cannabis induced DP shows that they often had a history of anxiety prior to DP. Some studies in to cannabis shows that pharmacological properties can be both euphoric or aversive (DP) and it is related to the state the person is in. So, cannabis acts like a co-agonist on the state that is there. The "bad trip" is related to your state and not the drug.

There are no selective kappa antagonist available, -not even in nature. Nature makes selective kappa agonists but not antagonists. There are 3. opiopate antagonist on the market for humans and the all have a potent antagonist effect on the endorphin receptor that herorin og morphin binds to. Naloxone has to be given IV as an injection. It has a half life of 30.min and is used for a respirations crisis to an overdose of a opiopate. So, it can´t be used for disorders like DP. Naltrexone is 15.times weaker on the kappe receptor than the Mu-receptor. So, you need a toxic dose 5-10.times the normal to get that. Nalmefene is a partial agonist on kappa. It can make DP as a side effect for a brief periode if given in a high dose. It stabilised the kappa receptor but don´t close it. I have tried nalmefene in 18.mg and tried to get up 56.mg. It was impossible to tolerante a dose higher than 18.mg. I started to vomit. i repeated that and tried to get higher slowly but i couldn't
 
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