[Guest]

Hi rula

Yes I am still around. I can't remember the questions I asked you in the post you referred to as I am not sure how to go about finding it since I don't remember how long ago it was that i posted it. But I would be interested in hearing your answers. It probably had to do with benzos, but am not sure.

I haven't been posting much recently. I have been feeling O.K. as far as DP/DR goes but I have been somewhat depressed in recent days, mostly do to with real life circumstances. Growing old, a bankruptcy hearing coming up soon, not having reliable transportation, loneliness, and things that most people would likely feel a bit saddened by. I appreciated hearing from you. And would like to hear your thoughts to my questions.

Here is a somewhat off topic article I found disturbing for a variety of different reasons, and thought you and others here might find interesting and thought provoking as well. Particularly for parents and children here in the U.S.

Mental Health Screening in Schools Signals the End of Parental Rights
Nancy Levant

"In the 2005-2006 school year, all parents will receive written notice of new policies from your children?s schools. Many schools will ask you to sign permission slips, allowing school counselors or ?advocates? to have conversations with your children. You will be told how your local schools are now involved in vision and dental screenings, learning disabilities and speech impediment screenings, and other acts of kindness, but watch for the small print or the extra little blurb, which states that your children will also be evaluated for emotional wellness. Watch for wording like ?happiness indicators? or ?family participation.?

The fact is that our president has mandated that every American child, age 3 through 18, is federally ordered to be evaluated for mental health issues and to receive ?enforced? treatment. Welcome to President Bush?s New Freedom Initiative and New Freedom Commission on Mental Health. Welcome to life-long profiling and drug addictions, New Freedom-style.

52 million students and six million adults working in schools, according to this commission, will be tested and should flush out at least 6 million people, or shall we say new customers, who will then be mandated to receive ?treatment.? What treatment does our president?s commission have in mind? The newest drugs in the pharmaceutical pipelines, of course. The commission recommends ?specific medications for specific conditions.?

One of the state-of-the-art treatments, and most expensive, is an implanted capsule ? yes, that?s right, implanted. The capsule delivers medication into a child?s body without the child having to swallow a pill or the need for parental permission for dispensation.

The New Freedom Commission named the Texas Medication Algorithm Project (TMAP) a model treatment plan. Medical algorithms are a flowchart-style treatment indicator. If you have A symptom and B symptom, take C medication. TMAP began with the University of Texas, big pharma, and the mental health and corrections system in Texas. The American Psychiatric Association concurs that TMAP is brilliant.

However, the New Freedom Initiative and Commission is a political-big pharma marriage. Many companies who supported TMAP were also major contributors to Bush?s re-election funds. For example, Eli Lilly manufactures olanzapine - one of the drugs recommended in the New Freedom plan, and furthermore, George Herbert Walker Bush was once a member of Lilly?s board of directors. Our current President Bush appointed Lilly?s chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, as a member of the Homeland Security Council. Eighty-two percent of Lilly?s $1.6 million in political contributions in 2000 went to Bush and the Republican Party. Do tell?

Texas Algorithm grossed over 4 billion dollars in 2003 and olanzapine is Eli Lilly's top selling drug. A 2003 New York Times article by Gardiner Harris claims that 70 percent of olanzapine sales are paid for by government agencies, such as Medicare and Medicaid. And lo and behold, guess who is now able to bill Medicaid for health services? Public schools, of course, as they are now under the big pharma-political profits/pay-back umbrella once they adopt screening policies. Public schools can now be paid to screen and drug your kids.

Now, if you ever wonder, ever again, if public-private partnerships care about people, then you need a brain transplant. Your children are now the legislated guinea pigs and lab rats for the pharmaceutical companies who bought and paid for our president?s campaign. Favors are now returned to those companies in the form of enforced, juvenile customers, their health, and their future drug addictions.

But wait, there is more. The New Freedom Commission also calls for enforced treatment. That means that parents have no rights to refuse the treatment recommenced by TMAP and other drug dispensing corporate-bureaucratic apparatuses. And as the mental health bureaucracy is also involved in this financial game of insidious cruelty, parents and families are also to be investigated via the result of their children?s screenings in schools. In other words, schools are now the across-the board, or shall I say nation, diagnostic tool for big pharma and child control.

And there?s more. The U.N. Agenda 21 has also called for total intrusion into schools and children lives. No more religion, no more individuality, no more real education, no more real grades, no more real teaching, no more teacher respect for parents, and no more truth from teachers or principals. This sounds very familiar and very political to me. And I?ve said it before, and I will say it again: if you are of a religious ilk and you refuse to allow your children to be abused by our ?educational? system, the stage is being set for you to lose physical custody of your children. I suggest that you read this: Rethinking Orphanages for the 21st Century by Richard McKenzie, ed

Still got your kids in public schools? Shame on you, and may God bless your poor children and forgive you. "

Source: http://www.sierratimes.com/05/05/16/24_ ... _25370.htm

 

[dakotajo]

What is our world coming to? George Bush really is a piece of shit. They act as tho they are concerned about our children yet the hidden agenda is only money. Ive read that the pill companies have made a ton of money due to Bush. Ill pick my family up and move to Canada before they will forcibly drug one of my kids.

Joe

 

[[rula]]

Hi John,

very interesting and disturbing article...sadly though, Eli Lilly's strong connections with our govt. is why it gets away with a lot, including having the most dangerous antidepressant on the market. and now this.

glad to hear your dp/dr is better, so is mine. although i'm tapering off klonopin right now, and with today's cut i've taken a bit of hit.

originally u asked why I said you can't take benzos forever.

I have been taking Xanax for twenty years and don't feel anything negative as a result. ( I am almost sixty) Admittedly I am habituated to it.

John, I'm not going to force an opinion on you, if you feel no bad side effects, so be it. But, I think it's perhaps important, especially being a long term user, to read and understand how Benzos work in the body, particularly how they cause and aggrevate symptoms of Depression, often suicidal.

http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/bzcha01.htm

and keep in mind that many long term users of Benzos that you'll find on the benzo forum had no idea their symptoms were caused by the very pill they thought was helping them. but you know best if you're having negative effects or not; personally I had them right away.

hope you're feeling better.
-rula

 

[Sojourner]

Yeah, horrible idea.

Just think if the two disturbed boys at Columbine and all the others who rampaged recently had been forced to get help in order to protect the public (not to mention make it possible for them to live worthwhile lives). That would be a terrible outcome, right? Their parents were too stupid (or probably mentally ill themselves) to see their children were mad.

I'm glad the government will do what stupid or sick parents cannot -- protect the innocent from the deranged among us.

I don't think "enforcement" would become an issue unless the child was a danger, and I think people who are afraid of this law need their mental health checked -- they're paranoid.

To automatically assume the government will secretly start drugging your child is stupid, too. Very stupid.

As long as parents in this country irresponsibly have children and then neglect them to the degree that turn into monsters, the government needs to protect the rest of us.

 

[[rula]]

no where in the article did I see the words "only if the child was a danger", or only if the child turns into "a monster". this isn't about protecting you or me, it isn't about the few and far in between cases you mention, this is about the all mighty dollar, plain and simple. If mental health was really their concern, then perhaps more therapy is needed, more counseling, not pills.

Our current President Bush appointed Lilly?s chief executive officer, Sidney Taurel, as a member of the Homeland Security Council. Eighty-two percent of Lilly?s $1.6 million in political contributions in 2000 went to Bush and the Republican Party. In case you missed that :shock:

my bf was diagnosed ADD as a child, and his parents CHOSE to not treat him with meds. I would've made that same choice too. This law takes away my/your right to make that choice. paranoid? no, perhaps just concerned about my so called "freedom".

-ru

 

[dakotajo]

Rula,

You are a breath of fresh air!

 

[Sojourner]

The article is clearly biased; I would read the law itself to determine what it really says.

Just like the hue and cry over the Patriot Act, this is probably a tempest in a teapot. Some people were claiming the FBI could just barge in and search your house under the Patriot Act. That proved to be a bald-faced lie. A federal judge needs to approve a search warrant.

If there are no provisions for input by parents at all, I would agree that is bad, but I don't know that for a fact, and neither do you.

There are probably adequate provisions for parent input and opportunities for negotiation.

One cannot base one's opinion on an article like that. Well, you can, of course, but it's just not smart.

 

[Sojourner]

I did a little research and found that evidently there was no provision for parent input.

In Illinois, the state amended its law:

Replaces everything. Amends the Children's Mental Health Act of 2003. Provides that any screening services provided under the Children's Mental Health Plan must be voluntary and conducted with parental consent and in accordance with the Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities Code. Effective immediately.

See http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/BillSta ... ssionID=50

So each state has to do what's necessary.

 

[[rula]]

Joe, well thank you... btw, i'll probably end up in canada soon too

Sojourner, I have no interest in debating with someone who feels the need to call ppl "paranoid", "very stupid", and now "not smart", which is redundant when you think about it.

-ru

 

[Sojourner]

You didn't know the facts for sure. You took the word of a biased newspaper. All you had was that article.

But I did the research and reported that evidently there weren't any protection in the law. So I was wrong.

I apologize for calling you those things. Perhaps your calling Bush what you did riled me. I shouldn't have responded in kind, but people keep telling me I'm a fallible human and I guess I let it go to my head.

I am sorry; I am sure you are quite intelligent.

Please forgive me.

 

[Guest]

Hi rula thanks for your reply.

I took some time and reviewed the site you linked to. Not the whole site of course but a few of those parts interesting to me.

First of all I was somewhat relieved to find that Ms. Ashton feels that the benzos are relatively safe and less toxic than many other drugs such as some of the anti depressants etc. Also she seems to have mellowed in her attitude (as I previously understood it anyway) about long term use, claiming that a long time user should not be forced to stop taking the benzo if they are not motivated to do so. This is something that I go back and forth about.

I would really like not to be dependant upon the Xanax, and I go through a period where I try to cut back for awhile. You know not a big cut maybe 10-25% of my daily average total dose of about 2.5mgs over a period of gradual reduction for a couple of weeks. I have found that cutting back like this is also an effective way to reduce ones tolerance level. A while back I was able to get down to 1.5mg per day. And i will admit I did feel that my mind functioned faster, and my mood was a bit brighter. Not in a major way but nevertheless noticeable.I even had times when I felt like a bit of a "wit"in conversations with others.

So I recognise it probably does have a certain depressing effect although mildly so in my case. And even though that may be true I do sometimes find that by taking the Xanax when I am feeling "down" it makes the down times more bearable. Anxiety seems to play a role in my "blue moods" and the Xanax is definitely effective for me aginst feelings of anxiety, and very helful in dealing with occasional panic attacks and DP/DR states.

I don't like the feeling of dependence on Xanax and I have read that probably about 80% of the difficulty with drawing from it is psychological. This is no doubt why self motivation can play such an important role. As well as a support sytem in place.

Admittedly as I have stated I would like to be free of this drug in my life, but truthfully I don't see that happening, and i am certainly not going to voluntarily give it up to replace it with some other likely more toxic drug like an antidepressant drug you made reference to above.

In my case the Xanax also plays a role in helping control my hypertension, in combination with twor anti hypertensive drugs i am taking (atenolol-a cardio vascular selective receptor beta blocker and Coozar a angiotensin antagonist type drug) so for me the Xanax actually serves more that one purpose in my health management.

Anyway thanks rula for the link. I found alot interesting info. It seems the UK view the benzos, particularly Xanax (alprozalam) in a somewhat more negative light than here in the U.S. Maybe some degree of cultural differences play a part in this.

BTW you said that you noticed having negative side effects right away. Was that with klonopin or Xanax or some other benzo? I noticed when I was taken Valium years ago they tended to make me feel depressed. If you don't mimd me asking what kind of negative effects did you experience? And what benzo were you taking?

Wishing you well
john

 

[dakotajo]

Hi Orlando,

Id like to know where its stated that ADs are more toxic than benzos? Ive certainly never read that before. Benzos are documented tolerance producing, addictive drugs which only treat symptoms and can actually aggravate symptoms after long term use. Ashton wont even rule out the fact that benzos may even cause permanent brain damage. From everything Ive read, ADs seem fairly benign(some will argue) and work on the true area of the brain thought to cause both anxiety and depression. Ive read that Ashton even recommends ADs as an adjunct med to help with the withdrawal from benzos. She feels that ADs are a much more intelligent approach to long term anxiety management.

Joe

 

[[rula]]

Hi Orlando,

I agree with you that benzo withdrawal/dependance is 90% mental. Ashton would say for example that if you've been taking the same dose of Xanax for 20 years, that it's no longer doing much for your anxiety. Your liver is detoxifying your body of the drug at a rate fast enough that it's effects are mostly at this point psychologically. most ppl would feel withdrawal at this point and increase the dose, but it sounds like you haven't needed to, so perhaps you don't need the xanax as much as you think.

I started out with xanax myself, the short half life of 6 hours had me on an anxiety roller coaster all day...I became depressed quickly, and agoraphobic for the 1st time of my life. I got physcial symptoms like tension headaches, tunnel vision, loss of appetite, dizziness, muscle twitching, etc...Xanax is really best suited for panic attacks, cuz it doesn't last long. so I was switched to Klonopin and basically felt like a zombie with a hangover all day long. Benzos mess with the natural sleeping cycle, so no amount of sleep ever made me feel refreshed...Cutting down my dose in a half recently made feel AWAKE again, it's like I can think straight and concentrate.

Joe,

AD's benign? hardly. quoting Dr. Ann Blake Tracy - Executive Director,
International Coalition For Drug Awareness

We have witnessed no decrease in suicide, but increases in murder/suicide, suicide, unwed pregnancies, domestic violence, manic-depression, MS, hypoglycemia, diabetes, bankruptcies, divorce, mothers (parents) killing children, road rage, school shootings, cancer, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and fibromyalgia since these serotonergic drugs have become so popular and I relate it directly to the effects of these drugs.

 

[dakotajo]

Hi rula,

When I say benign, I mean that ADs dont cause any sort of known brain damage, structural or functional. or long lasting effect(some will argue this). Benzos are tolerance producing. They cause some pretty serious physical changes that ripple thru the brain. Ive read, most experts believe it takes 18 months for the brain to return to "balance" once the drug is stopped. I believe it. Some people have protracted symptoms for years and years. Some even take symtpoms to the grave which points at possible brain damage.

My withdrawal from klonopin was certainly not 90% mental. For the first 2 months off I had life threatening blood pressure that could not be controlled, intolerable skin and spine burning, seizures that I will never have to experience again unless I mess around with benzos. I also suffered from acid dp/dr , visual and auditory hallucinations and EXTREME paranoia which also went away after the first few months. The point Im trying to make is at my worst moments I cant bring any of these symptoms(and Id never want to..brrr!!). The were all caused from my rapid withdrawal from these addictive drugs. Id say your figures should be reversed. 10% mental and 90% physical.

Joe

 

[[rula]]

The 90% mental figure is for ppl who taper correctly, and gradually...I experienced severe physical symptoms when I cold turkeyed Xanax after just 3 weeks!

Everyone I know who had severe protracted symptoms, and just generally had a really hard time, were ppl who tapered too fast or went cold turkey. Ashton doesn't support any benzo long term brain damage theory, neither does Ray Nemo who runs the biggest anti-benzos forum, and he was on them for many, many years.

peace,
-ru

 

[dakotajo]

The last I knew, 5 years after his withdrawal, Ray still had SEVERE protracted symptoms. He always complained of daily jaw and dental pain, brain burning, intense tinnitus etc. I havent been on that site for years but the last I knew he was insistent that his symptoms were definitely caused from benzo induced permanent damage to his cns. He told me he was officially diagnosed with PWS. He even recieved a money settlement for the years he spent hopelessly addicted.

Ashton has never ruled out that benzos do brain damage. I think she weighs more on the idea that the damage is functional rather than structural and in time the brain will hopefully right itself.

Ive read that long term effects have shown that benzos may even shrink the brain similiar to what happens after long term alcohol usage. I guess it makes sense cause these drugs are very similiar in mechanism.

 

[Guest]

Hi again rula and joe

Joe you asked:

"Id like to know where its stated that ADs are more toxic than benzos? Ive certainly never read that before. Benzos are documented tolerance producing, addictive drugs which only treat symptoms and can actually aggravate symptoms after long term use."

I am sorry Joe I went back to the site but can't find the page I read last night. I spent about twenty minutes looking for it. I mean I didn't just make it up. I'm sorry I can't find it right now. It was on the same page I believe where she mentions that for "some people" the best option for dealing with their mental health issues may be a long term "low dosage" benzo regimen. Personally, I often think that time may be the greatest healer and that the psyche itself seeks its own "healing" through various "unconcious" processes. Drugs for many of us may serve a similar function to our mental health and emotional pain as the actions of asperin does upon the pain of a head ache.

I am certainly not advocating that people should take any particular class of drug. At this point in time I personally have few complaints about my long term use of Xanax. The greatest drawback, from what I have read on the subject, is for some people is the development of tolerance and habituation with long term use. Nevertheless I might point out that Ms Ashton also has an extensive section on how to withdraw from antidepressant medication as well. I suppose every drug has some down side to it.

rula

I have not been taking Xanax at the current dosage level for all those twenty years, mostly in the beginning I took small amounts to help me sleep through the night as I generally drank everyday for about thirty years and the acohol would only allow me to sleep thre or four hour and the it would wear off at like one in the morning and i would take a .5 mg Xanax and I slept like ababy the rest of the night. I was never a really heavy drinker, more like a Joe six pack type guy. I also smoked alot of pot and sometimes it would get me uncomfortably anxious ans the Xanax would help me feel comfortable. As you are probably aware I was diagnosed as suffering from a chronic "Character disorder" this category has stuck with me over the years but at some point in the past when I went to a county Mental health clinic my presenting symptom at the time which was causing me the most stress was DR/DR and a panic disorder. I have never really had anxiety except in relation to fear of the fear of having a panic attack or becoming depersonalized. I am feeling much stronger these days and i think you may be right about perhaps my need for Xanax not being as strong as it once was and in fact to a large extent much of its benefit may be from a placebo effect at this point in time. Anyway it is an interesting concept worth exploring.

Thanks you both for your responses

john