[laquw]

Hey Janine. I know you get several topic starters that asks for you. I will keep it short. I dont know if you remember me but i am the one that had dp/dr from weed almost 3 years ago. I had it for 3months, very very extreme and then it went away. However i was still left with a little disconnected numb feeling. Not to the point of DP or DR but i just cant describe it and sometimes i cant relate to anyone on this board.

- Its been getting worse these past 2 weeks, i guess b/c of stress with my girlfriend and college. I missed out on alot of time from nyu and i should have been graduated last yr. I however have a semester remaining. Oh forgot "keeping this topic short" =)

Anyways i been feeling a little bit more disconnected lately and on the edge, but it doesnt manifest itself to dp or dr. Its just a feeling i live with everyday. Do u have any idea what it is?? Could it be that i still have dp/dr? i doubt it but what is this numb feeling ?

you also reccommended Welbutrin, im thinking of getting on it.

 

[Guest]

..I know I'm not Janine but I wantd to let you know I know exactly how you're feeling. I've had this for a while...not really anxious at all but not really dp/dr just kind of blah. And I'm not obsessed wth the feeling either I just don't really feel like myself. Well anyway I'm not sure waht exactly it is but just know you're not alone and I'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with dp and anxiety ..hang in there

lauren

 

[Guest]

Hi, and I do remember you (just think of all the brain storeage I have reserved for this Board, lolol)

The key to what you described is that it's "Stress-induced" (school and girlfriend, etc.). Here's what happens: often we have some kind of breakdown (from a drug, or from life itself) and we MIGHT get to feeling better and think it's all behind us.

In reality, that's very very rare. Whatever "disturbances in the field" that caused the original breakdown need to, at some point, be dealt with. The fears, insecurites, self-lies, unrealistic beliefs, etc. all have to be looked at, and somehow reconciled with reality. If not, then any stress will keep making SOMEthing bounce back to the top.

I'd say you're probably feeling low level anxiety and/or depression, but again, the NAME of "it" just isn't even helpful. Advice? Make friends with reality as much as you can. Take a good honest look at what is REALLY making you so shakey and then work on it...or talk about it, or ideally, find a good therapist and REALLY look at it.

All the best,
Janine

 

[laquw]

hey Janine thanks for the reply. I know i said stressed induced which it is but even when im stress-free i still have that ""blah"" feeling of not being fully awake. Do u think its still dp/dr very mild case of it maybe. I mean I had it for 3 years after that extreme 3month episode and it just fluctuates. Do you know that feeling have you experienced it/ and you think an ssri can help?

 

[person3]

Ok I don't mean to be playing Janine here, but this is kind of bugging me.

LOOK

she just gave you the answer in the post.

It doesn't matter if you had 2 months or 4 months of DP and a slight wave of bad feeling or maybe the anxiety first and hten the full blown DP or DP+ depression for the whole time, a quick recovery and bounceback or latent anxiety for a year or WHATEVER.

IT DOES NOT MATTER THE TIME AND THE TYPE OF DP/DR/ANXIETY YOU HAD. IT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

The issue is something that happened before the first dp. What happened before the first dp is you had:
a set way of what you thought the world to be
certain fears and insecurities
certain misconceptions about the world
certain things about yourself you couldn't face or accept
certain things about reality you couldn't face or accept.

THOSE are the things that need to be looked at. NOT how you're feeling right now.

So go to a psychologist and talk to them about your life. oh yeah that tricky little thing called life. that you're running away from.

----------------
for example:

everything started feeling worse recently when i started dating somebody. I could have just marked it off as "stress of a new guy" or "oh my dp/dr/anxiety is getting worse" or whatever, but it was really a surfacing of latent problems I had WAY before the DP such as:

1) irrational fear of rejection
2) bending over backwards just to please somebody, not voicing my wants/needs/anger
3) not facing that sometimes, someone isn't mature enough for me to date or that they just don't like me (which, in this case, was probably both and more the latter than the former)
4) I haven't spent enough time alone with my feelings, i use boyfriends as distractions
5) i date people so that way i don't have to do other things like attend to family and friends and such, gives me an excuse to go out and party

----------

so maybe you might want to look at WHY you're dating this person or WHY you're in the other situations that stress you out, there could be some immediate clues there...and then still work on the deeper stuff.

 

[maria]

The issue is something that happened before the first dp. What happened before the first dp is you had:
a set way of what you thought the world to be
certain fears and insecurities
certain misconceptions about the world
certain things about yourself you couldn't face or accept
certain things about reality you couldn't face or accept.

I totally agree. But, and I'm simplifying this a lot as I can't express myself better, what about when you recognize all these and have pretty much accepted yourself and the world and dp still stays? One example, before dp I wholeheartedly considered my life as a script filled with events which would finally lead into my greatness- I'd be a famous actress, the next great comedian, the saviour of Germany's economics (?). Everything that happened was only a stepping stone for this, I could see patterns of it everywhere. I also had unrealistic expectations about everything, mainly I thought wherever I went people would love me. And of course when anything unexpected happened which threatened the Major Plan I'd get confused, without realizing these behavior patterns at all. But that's gone now, however dp isn't. I really can't explain better what I mean. I guess it's part of dp to think you see things as they are, but I do believe my belief system before dp was completely distorted. It's just feels like I know everything about me and see the world more realistically but this condition still stays. But that may also be because I just scored well on a depression test.

 

[Guest]

before dp I wholeheartedly considered my life as a script filled with events which would finally lead into my greatness- I'd be a famous actress, the next great comedian, the saviour of Germany's economics (?).

Maria, I love you, lol...that is so wonderful. You never had any threat from me concerning the economics, but part of MY life plans included being either a 1) famous movie star; 2) famous Pulitzer prize winning writer or 3) a physicist who would discover the answer to alchemy.

I wonder if most of us had at least one "oddball/doesn't fit in with the otheres" grand delusions, lol

I'm laughing, but the number of intense and grandiose narcissistic fantasies that PERVADED the minds of people who have dp is amazing. We can SAY "oh, well, those were just fantasies" but often that's lying. I totally believed I could be ANYthing (and never seemed to realize I'd actualy have to take STEPS to achieve my destined greatness)

All I can say, is that yes, I know, Maria. And it takes a while to really work on how we're going to make peace with reality. We have to look at who we ARE that we're so afraid of, and that we hate so much we needed to invent grandiose fantasies to be able to face the future.

Then we need to learn we are NOT that awful person we feared..and find the real person somewhere in between.

Love,
Janine

p.s. Person3, I could not have said it better. You're too cool!

 

[Guest]

Now Im wondering if and what kind of grand delusions I have?

When I was studying at University I wanted to become a professor.
Does that count?
And if so, is that by definition narcissistic? I mean dont we all have
these kinds of 'delusions' more or less?

 

[Guest]

Nooo...wanting to be a professor is not a grand delusion, lol....you are highly intelligent and that is perfectly rational goal for you.

also, the difference is usually in 1) how possible is the goal? and 2) are you taking steps to actually DO it? or just thinking about it for years alone in your mind.

For you, being a professor is like me dreaming of being an analyst. PERFECTLY possible, but it feels lofty only because we know where we came from! THat is not unrealistic though...and it's very important to separate "ambitious" from "fantasy"

Also, I don't mean to say that ALL of us are made this way. My personal hunch is that the MAJORITY (not all, just many) of dp'ers will fall into two overall groups. Those who have been abused/rejected as children (and went to live in their own minds as an escape) and those who were over-indulged in some way, or "MIS-used" as mini-adults to a needy parent - those kids often develop narcissisitic defenses and those are the ones with the grandiose fantasies.

Apologies if I sounded too absolute there.

 

[person3]

maria, maybe you have "accepted" it in the sense that "oh, well i'm not going to be those things, no use in trying"

are you really starting to build piece by piece the career you want, etc?

I don't know

but i think it's a huge part of this disorder

i've still got problems myself

BTW Janine they've discovered several hundred years ago that alchemy was crap...well i guess you could turn other things into gold but it would be radio active. Besides, who wants to be a physicist anyway? Physics bores me...i just take classes like that occasionally to try to impress people.

 

[Brainsilence02]

...and those who were over-indulged in some way, or "MIS-used" as mini-adults to a needy parent - those kids often develop narcissisitic defenses and those are the ones with the grandiose fantasies.

I would like to learn more about this one (I think that this is the case with me). Is there an easy-to-understand e-book?

 

[Homeskooled]

Just to give a neuropsychiatric point of view on this stuff: I tend to think that EVERYONE has unrealistic dreams. Its healthy. They tend to fade as people age, or they meet with obstacles to their goals, take different life paths, etc... From my standpoint, I see that dissociatives and DPers tend to have overwhelmingly artistic urges. This makes sense to me since I see the temporal lobes as the seats of DP and artistic expression. Look at people with Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Obsessive writers, mystics, artists, performers. And ask neuroligists with TLE patients - they all tend to be a bit narcissistic and convinced that they are somehow "special". The religious ones tend to attribute it to a feeling that God is guiding their lives. But these sorts of people may indeed have a special destiny. Most of the great people of history express in their memoirs that ever since childhood they felt a call to lead, to be destined for greatness. Its a mixture of destiny AND the biological urge to seek it out. Really, some far out things have happened to me lately. I got a job in the entertainment industry, and an offer for an internship in Washington DC and the Amen Clinic in California. I thought it would be harder to grab these things than it really ended up being. What interests me, since I see it in so-called "normal" college students is their ability to sabotage their own dreams. To be the worst naysayers in their own lives. Its some sort of self-destructive, afraid of success complex. I think everyone has it, but I wouldnt be surprised if there is a Freudian name for it. So sure, you might be a dissociative, you might have some far out artistic ambitions, but you know what? They're probably possible if you apply yourself. You'll never know until you try. And failing doesnt hurt as bad as you think it does.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[Guest]

Homeskooled, I agree that most people have fantastic goals and dreams, etc...but there is a clear difference for those of us (not ALL dp'ers, agreed) who have/had highly obsessive narcissistic fantasies. If we're like that, we KNOW it. And it's not the same thing as having ambitious or grand dreams.

When reality got in my way, I moved REALITY into a box.

When I wanted to believe I could change the world with my artistic talents, I also failed to DO anything to even start. What I wanted was to know I COULD, not to do.

When I couldn't handle the way somebody saw me, I left.

When I couldn't handle the way I saw myself, I developed symptoms.

It's not the same as other people's conflicts about success or high goals. For me, it was NEEDED - like air - because I could not endure thinking I was just an ordinary person. LIterally could not endure it. Would have rather died. That is not normal.

It's like saying that yes, most of us have jitters if we have to speak in front of a group. But there are some people who would QUIT a job rather than do it, or leave a loved one...they literally become DESPERATE around the idea of being laughed at or failing in public view. That is not normal "stage fright"

All this stuff is on a continuum.

And yes, I'm coming from a psychological approach not neurological. But it does have value - different strokes for different solutions.

Peace,
Janine

 

[Dreamer]

Dear Janine,
Damn for some reason, I'm having trouble posting, and just lost, DAMNIT, forgive a very insigtful tome. So I'll make this brief. Why I didn't copy and paste that to notepad........... never mind :evil:

I agree with Home, specifically the part about how when we are young we have many aspirations which are illogical, or as we get older are not possible for one reason or another.

For me, I had only one goal, to be a singer really, and I had the talent to back it up, but the anxiety and verbal abuse from my mother to squash it.

I can't remember a time I didn't want that. I also wanted to be famous, in part well, for two reasons -- I wanted the love of an audience (which I now see is hollow), and I wanted to prove to my mother (by winning my Grammy or whatever) that I was not a "failure" a "sociopath" an "idiot" essentially. My mother had a whole dictionary of negative adjectives for me.

I know many adults these days -- healthy ones -- who look back wistfully at that "career as an artist", the MANY boys I knew in high school and college who were "going to start a famous band -- and I sang back up, LOL" ... we all grew out of that. I still have longed for recognition, but that is fading, as I realize I have nothing to prove.

OK, here's the eyepoke test.... LOL.... I want my zombie smiley back :shock: <-------- this little fellow will have to do.

Devil's Advocate: Why is it that Narcissistic Personality Disorder NOT have DP/DR as part of its constellation of symptoms, and Bordeline Personality clearly states that DP/DR, cutting, suicide threats are part and parcel of that illness. I see now the Borderline in me, which is possibly going to be called "dyslimbia" or "mood dysregulation" and responds to mood stabilizers such as Lamictal.

I DO agree that completely unrealistic expectations of one's worth are a hallmark of a narcissistic disorder, coutering feelings of worthlessness.

You know I still have a problem with the Unconscious that we haven't acknowledged. I feel I am slowly facing things -- simply as reality, a lesson of getting older, as well as the realization that I can't please my mother. And she's been dead for nearly 4 years now.

I still have Borderline traits -- catatrophizing, the black/white thinking, the negative thinking, but in my case, never had this to such an extent that anyone, save my last doctor (in L.A.) noted.

OK, I'm going to cut and paste this.

In the Spirit of Healthy Debate,
All eyes remaining, LOL :shock:
Peace,
D
Of the Ramachandran school
8)

 

[Dreamer]

Forgot to say.

I have found my DP less intrusive over the years, though I am far from happy living 24/7 with its miserable chronicity.

My theory is, it is getting better, as my overall anxiety is decreasing by forcing myself into MANY anxiety-provoking situations.

If I believe that I don't have to be "perfect", then there is a tremendous weight lifted from my shoulders.

This is why (I got a clearer explanation of my recent diagnosis) in the past I didn't have the "healthy narcissism" or really self-confidence to believe I was really capable, that the recognition I DID receive was real.

In accepting myself, yes, who I am, the anxiety lessens and perhaps the DP becomes more... well I have to live with it... or the rest of my life will pass me by.

I am really having a hard time posting.
Anyone else?
Did I say, I HATE MOVING 8)

 

[Guest]

Yeah, your eye pokes are just pitiful little things without the accompanying scary one-eyed goofball (grin).

And agreed totally, in the spirit of healthy debate: your question re: NPD versus BPD is a very good one. And you?re right ? dp/dr states won?t show up in NPD symptom lists. But?..the personality disorders are one component, distinct and specific. The concept of a ?narcissistic-based disturbance? extends far beyond what the DSM?s NPD classification covers.

Remember, all the personality disorders are based in BEHAVIORAL problems (how they ?present? i.e., very often how the disorder affects OTHER people in the patient?s life, or how the patient makes his/her own life difficult because of inter-relational deficits).

Someone with a DSM description of NPD may or may not be like ANY of us here on the board ? it?s one expression of narcissism-gone-awry. In the same way that paranoia covers a wide range of disturbances, the DSM?s Paranoid Personality Disorder is only ONE way that trait can manifest.

(the following is stuff you will also eye poke, grin?this is within the scope of analytic thought, so I?m not saying it?s Universal Truth, but I offer it as explanation/clarification to the thinking behind the concepts, only in the interest of answering your question).

The context in which I use the ?N? word has more to do with the way the individual perceives reality ? the extent to which the patient has Inverted psychic energies into Self, i.e., the narcissistic bubble, depending on fantasy as sustenance, severely vulnerable to any injury that threatens that bubble, and the types of psychological defenses they use: disavowal (?knowing? and simultaneously ?not knowing? things), extreme compartmentalization (putting certain traits and behaviors into certain areas for expression and then being a VERY different way in other situations), obsessionalism, heavy use of "masks" and facades, both in self and in looking for them in others, magical thinking, envious projection, etc..

The type of defenses the person uses will often help to create which type of symptoms they develop if they reach that point. The ?CORE? of the person (in this example) is that she suffers from narcissistic disturbances that created certain defenses to cope with those problems, then that create certain symptoms (dp/dr) when the self comes under siege (stress, breakdown, trauma, etc.).

Again, DISCLAIMER: lol?.I am not saying this is everyone with dp. No way.

But?this is a large bunch of them (medical classification term, grin) and only in the interest of connecting to anyone who SEES him/herself in these descriptions, I offer this kind of information to enhance their self-insight. Don?t PM me to tell me you?re not narcissistic, lol?it?s not everyone.

:wink:

 

[Dreamer]

The concept of a ?narcissistic-based disturbance? extends far beyond what the DSM?s NPD classification covers.

Agreed. Also, I can't believe I wrote a Freudian BRA in my post; we HAVE agreed to disagree on the Unconscious, LOL.
It's true there is an entire body of psychoanalytic literature that addresses this. It is again what school of thought one espouses.

I have no brain. :roll:

Don?t PM me to tell me you?re not narcissistic, lol?it?s not everyone.

I'll try. :shock:
L'Hairballe D'Anxiete 8)

 

[Guest]

It's not that you have no brain, poor Hairball. It's that you also have an Unconscious. LOL

I thought it showed great psychoanalytic growth and maturity on my part that I did NOT mention your F. bra from the earlier post.

ALL in fun!
L,
J

p.s. Also, I really hear you re: your own awareness of borderline traits, etc. I think you describe what I personally consider the most significant of those traits - the emotional lability, the wild fluctuations and difficulty in HANDLING emotional changes/states. Very often, and sometimes especially in psychoanalysis, the therapist will MISS that - assuming the volatility they see in the session room is only transference or only some unconscious enactment (stuff one SHOULD be doing in the room). They can often miss the true emotional "craziness" that the patient is living with 24/7 and it's a very serious therapeutic error. The therapist or analyst ends up encouraging the very destructive thought processes and behavior (thinking it's good for the treatment work, but failing to appreciate its pervasiveness). It ends up short-changing the patient and her/his growth.

 

[Dreamer]

It's not that you have no brain, poor Hairball. It's that you also have an Unconscious. LOL

LOLOLOLOLOL.

Yes, and you're correct re:

They can often miss the true emotional "craziness" that the patient is living with 24/7 and it's a very serious therapeutic error. The therapist or analyst ends up encouraging the very destructive thought processes and behavior (thinking it's good for the treatment work, but failing to appreciate its pervasiveness). It ends up short-changing the patient and her/his growth.

I was discussing this with my husband, our good and very bad luck in therapy. I had one doctor I know thought "wow here's a borderline doozie" and wanted me out of the place (maybe two, LOL), then another who let me run the show.

Man, one has to find a therapist with brains, empathy ... a lot. Overall I think I've been fortunate, more fortunate than many here, but "the road is long...."

L'Hairballe 8)