[person3]

Ok. No one WANTS to be insane. But think of the positive aspects of the insanity you fear so much:

-you would be able to let go of having so much control
-you wouldn't be worried about insanity anymore- you'd BE there
-you would have someone else save you and take care of you and live for you

Now take a good damn look at all that.

I've noticed sometimes when I have had an INCREDIBLE fear of something it hid an INCREDIBLE desire to full-fledged it hit.

I'm not saying you WANT to be insane.

But you maybe somehwere WANT to hit a point that is not what you're having now.

(I actually wished at times to be insane, so that way there was some CONCRETE disorder that doctors could diagnose and medicate. and then I could go to a mental hospital and be watched after.)

If you were insane, that means you would 1) not be able to control yourself 2) be something that maybe people in your life wouldn't approve of, and 3) have to step down from being the idealistic person you might secretly think you are.

Maybe the fear of losing it is the DESIRE to lose control. To say "fuck you" to those people whom you work so hard to be what they want you to be. To say "fuck you" to being that perfect person.

To be not yourself anymore.

And the insanity is just a metaphor.

because part of you still wants to control and keep everything as it is. It wants it so bad and YOu want it so bad...you still have work to do, in all your manipulative spiderwebs...you still have love that you need to win from the wrong people. you still have shapeshifting to do to please others. you still have the 'masks' to wear.

You want it so bad that you would rather think you're going insane then have to give up all those complicated games and see you for who you really are and have those other people see you for who you really are.

But part of you wants to give up that game, say "hey I'm done lets pack this up" and just let it all hang out...to go against what people want you to be and find it out for yourself...

but that might pit you against people who might withdraw their love for you if you DO that.

so maybe out of fear of abandonment you would rather cave in on yourself and fear insanity so people could take care of you rather than risk being the REAL you in a world where people might leave you.

And maybe because sometimes people don't LIKE you if you are outgoing and different and whatever...part of you WANTS to be the incapable insane person that although people look down on they would never think of HATING. Because nothing is your FAULT if you're insane. You are not accountable and therefore people won't hate you and leave you for what you might do to hurt them. They will unconditionally love you.

Maybe your fear of insanity is a wish to be so, so you will not be judged or hurt. Maybe it is a wish to be so because then people will take care of you which equates loving you...and you won't even have to take the risk of ASKING them to do so.

Maybe your fear of insanity is actually your desparate want for unconditional love.

When I thought I was going to lose it, I was so embarassed because i thought people would see me as dependent and needing of people and weak.

WELL NO GOD DAMN MOTHERFUCKING SHIT SHERLOCK!

there you have it.

I didn't WANT people to see me as weak and incapable. I didn't WANT people to see me as needing something from them. I didn't TRUST people to not use that want and need to MANIPULATE me with (because those I did stay attached to were soemtimes the people that DID, and the ones that would NEVEr want to do that, were the ones I did NOT trust)

And maybe I WANTED to lose control and not be who I was, but that would mean those untrustworthy people were RIGHt in their assumptions of the real me? I dunno.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also..

Sometimes when we have a nervous breakdown we immediately seek help from the one person that might be a big PART of causing it.

First person I called: My maternal grandmother.

I hated my mother and my other grandparents and my aunts and uncles and sometimes my cousins. I lashed out at every single on of them and blamed them for making me who I was (which i later found out they were the ones who made me the positive and GOOD person that I didn't want to let myself be, because I thought I was supposed to be this other person who was not like them...it was almost as if I was deliberately punishing myself.)

After a talk with my mom last night (whom I never trusted but deep down inside sometimes felt rather comfortable around)...she was telling me how LIVING with Grandma singer was like..

I realized that I had never turned against or lashed out against my maternal grandmother. I never crossed her and challenged her even when she would call and say "I'm in town. but i need you to see me monday night because I have plans the rest of the week. what? you're busy monday night? i don't understand. nobody wrote me thank you notes for christmas. I won't buy them gifts anymore."

and I realized that I have been spending a LONG time "writing the thank you notes" to other people, for fear they would get mad. I would find out what people wanted so i could please them and not make them mad.

But my grandmother never got mad at me. I never attempted to cross her.

Instead i prostituted myself without knowing it. Gave more away than I should. Metaphorically and Literally. I gave away sex to 14 guys. I gave away sex to a man whom, when I made a mistake, said "If I didn't love you this really would have made me mad."

But the nice people of the world- I lashed out on them. I lashed out on my OTHER grandmother whose Jewish cooking I felt would make me fat...whilst my maternal grandmother would get away with comments like "I really don't think tailored clothing is that flattering on you...you should wear loose clothing" (implying that my body looked rather fat in soemthign that fit right)

yep yep yep

She was the first person i called. I thought at age 19 she could fix me. Instead she recommended a therapist that I eventually disliked, and she got a bit flippant because that was the one SHE recommended.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[person3]

if you feel you have to change yourself or only be a part of yourself to win someone's love, then

it's not love.

don't go into DP land trying to chase after that ideal person you need to be in order to win them.

 

[Guest]

Totally correct, my dear.

I used to say "when I get that deep deep state of DP, NOBODY can reach me...!" and I was crying and lamenting and begging for someone to try to reach me. One day I heard it differently - with the help of the analyst - he said "you say it like "NObody will EVER find me there!" almost as if there is a pride in it..." A pleasure in the isolation - fear of it... But also secret pleasure.

Naturally, there were TWO meanings - the terror, clearly...but also the "you'll never reach me when I fly into outer space...."

I HAD to hear both meanings in order to really understand some things.

Ambivalence. Two feelings at once. Two OPPOSITE feelings at once.

 

[Guest]

Very good post. I recognize myself in it.

I can add that for me, I want things like they were BEFORE : no responsabilities, egoism (in a way) routine, patterns, same work, same boyfriend, same hobbies, same things. I was feeling bad? Going to see my mother who was reassuring me. I was feeling like I would like to leave university? Go see my family, and convince them, then leave university (because I didn't like the classes) I wouldn't like to drive? Didn't drive and let my boyfriend drive the car. I was avoidant of all responsabilies and wanted to have SAME things like before, like when I was 20.

No changes. No responsabilities. Like a little girl, hard things made by other ADULTS.

This was me.

Now I am without job, with a son, responsabilities, stress, without nothing in life. I am in total panic. I don't know who I am and what is my routine. I don't like responsabilities. I HATE changes and I don't have the choice to change (job, at least). DP/DR.

When I try to think, be aware of my current situation, my mind disconnect. I have dissociation. I feel not myself. It's too much for me. I feel not there. I don't want to be there. I don't want changes from the bottom of my heart, my soul.

Just wonder how to change this.

Cynthia xxx

 

[person3]

Cynthia- I would read and re-read what Janine just wrote and think of the last time you said that or thought that. It just really hit me, the importance of her point.

It's not about "how to change that"

It's about teh secret happiness and pleasure and excitement in those awful moments. Recognizing it.

Maybe in your frenzied stress of figuring out what to do

Maybe your desire to go to another place where the grass is greener (like a different job) could be that you actually have a very decent job but there may be something YOU are doing wrong...maybe you fear the boss too much to confront her when she does something wrong, or maybe you are upset because you feel underappreciated or that you weren't as important on the job totem pole as you thought...it could be many things...i would think about what's wrong with the job and the life right NOW instead of "how to change it". Also think about what's GOOD about those things.

 

[Guest]

I re-read it!!!

I don't want to change things, I want to know why I do that, and understand, then DP will fade away. About jobs, I don't have one so....

But I can feel disconnected in a grocery store, suddently. What do I think to become like that? Why this defense? What happens suddently, without explanation? I am looking at the bananas, and bang! Disconnection. Is it the my reality is too DULL for me, and I prefer to disconnect? If so, how to accept/change it? I can't return my baby to the store (LOL) I have to accept the fact that I am not a little girl anymore, but a mother, with responsabilities.... I can't go away, and go and leave my family, go into another planet, I can't. I am a mother, a mother with a family. And I have to face the fact that stress exists, and new job is stressful, and I have to face the fact that I will have to make efforts to become part of a group at the job, make friends, and learning a new job..... all stress me to death.

Being again in a world that rejected me so much before the delivery (job). Hard.

Those are my challenges...

Cynthia xxx

 

[Guest]

no thanks

 

[Guest]

All of this makes so much sense. I never really thought about why I would not want to be "me" anymore - but on some level I guess maybe I don't - Looking around at a life that - if you could do over you probably would do differently - but you can't now. As for myself I can honestly say that things were so much easier when I was younger - maybe there is that part of me - hidden beneath the "what I'm supposed to think" exterior, that wishes I could just go back there again. I'm a single,working mother of two and I am in a constant tailspin of activity. I
adore my kids - they are my whole world. I just want to be able to have more time doing the things that I want to do - not HAVE to do. Be around for them more - be around for me more - have more fun. Work, pay bills, work some more etc, etc. It's not the existence I dreamed I would have
once upon a time. A connection between fear and secret desires??Hmm - I think you all might be onto something here...

 

[Guest]

It's about teh secret happiness and pleasure and excitement in those awful moments. Recognizing it.

The birthday girl is on a roll (person3, a/k/a Melissa).

I couldn't have said it better, and if I HAD said it years ago, my own recovery might have started when I was 23 myself, lol....

Love ya,
J

 

[kenc127]

It's about teh secret happiness and pleasure and excitement in those awful moments. Recognizing it.

Oh God, you mean to say that there is something in me that enjoys this stuff? It's always something.

I am looking at the bananas, and bang! Disconnection.

Yes, I think we link bannanas to where we think we are headed.

Ken

 

[person3]

Maybe there is something you enjoy in it. You don't enjoy the sensations of course but you may enjoy your uniqueness in the suffering...that NOBODY understands...you may enjoy the isolation, or you may enjoy the novelty of something that is other than that plain old reality you have to face....you MUST enjoy something about it, you spend so much TIME monitoring it! We don't watch and monitor things we don't have an interest in.

 

[kenc127]

Unless we are afraid of losing control. My only interest in all of this is too ensure I don't lose control. That's why I self watch.

 

[Guest]

And what Melissa said - totally true - of COURSE we don't want the suffering and terror of this, of course not. But....we have to look at what we might be partially wanting that brings this all to fruition.

Terror of losing control. It comes from somewhere. And it really doesn't come from the fact that ANYONE could POTENTIALLY lose control. It comes from self. the individual. me. you. it comes....because part of us, probably unconscious, has secret desires to lose total control...once and for all.

If we didn't have that wish, the fear wouldn't feel so pervasive.

 

[kenc127]

When I was younger my parents were always a threat to my status quo. Whatever goals I had lined up, whatever desires I had, they would always find a way to ruin them. I think this is where my desire for control comes in. I never learned to accept the world on its terms, and because of that I have control issues. I just wish I could find a way to say I don't need to control things anymore.

 

[Guest]

So, you're saying that unconsciously there is a part of us that desires DP? We're interested in it, that's why we constantly self monitor? That it's something special, that makes life different or makes us unique?

I'm not asking these questions rhetorically and in disbelief, I am honestly trying to clarify and understand what you mean... I'll try exploring any idea to further understand and help myself.

But, I don't know, I would think we constantly self monitor DP the same way you would constantly pay attention to an elephant sitting on top of you...
It's smothering...

 

[Guest]

You scares me with you secret desire to have dp for being unique....

Ouf. I don't catch that one. And if I do that, I am so silly!
:?

I swear to God I don't want this DP, consciouslly. And I am afraid to death about this loss of self thing. I never enjoy being obsessive about that. It's like a compulsion to see, read things of DP/DR. To find the answer. It's automatic. It's not because I like that, I do this automatically.

When I disconnect from the real world, and feel in a dream, I never enjoy this AT ALL. I want to be part of the world (consciously), I swear I want it.

I must admit, thought, that I feel less alone when I come here. I know people like me understand. I communicate (in a way). I always have the secret hope that many people will recover and tell us how they did it (cure = that + that + that) Silly but it's my secret hope. Also, when I feel very bad, I need someone to tell me I am not alone in this, like a virtual psychologist. That is why I come here.

Cynthia xxx

 

[person3]

ok, ok. let's clear something up.

So, you're saying that unconsciously there is a part of us that desires DP? We're interested in it, that's why we constantly self monitor? That it's something special, that makes life different or makes us unique?

Yes and NO NO NO.

Alright.

DP is not special or something that makes us unique. It is NOT a gift, a special ability, or something that we have that nobody else has. We are not GIFTED with DP and we are NOT to FURTHER ENLIGHTEN OURSELVES WITH IT. NO NO NO. THat brings on more DP. THIS IS NOT A GIFT OR SOMETHING SPECIAL, DO NOT EVER BELIEVE SO.

BUT....

All that being said.

The DP is the SYMPTOMS that create the misery for us. We don't want to bring this harm and terror upon ourselves, fuck no! But..sometimes whilst in the midst of the pain, we take great PLEASURE in what we can do "while we're ill". We can say that nobody understands, we can pretend to feel unique and feel THE most crippled, we can play victim, we can sit and ruminate over the past and pity ourselves and pride ourselves for surviving through this. Those are all pleasurable things. Not the DP.

But...if you did NOT have the DP, you would NOT get to pity yourself and think of yourself as ill and feel like others should save you and take care of you. You would not get to ruminate as much and you would only have the real world to deal with.

With DP, you believe you are special...instead of having the REAL world where everyone is equal, no one is special, and you are just another number, you have the DP world where YOU are the only one, YOU are the special one, YOU are the one that gives YOU all the attention. YOu are the only thing that matters in the whole universe and that's how you secretly want it to be.

Because outside in the real world you feel you wouldn't get the admiration you needed.

You're stuck in a narcissistic phase of development.

I was reading a text on the life of Kaiser Wilhelm 2 and an analysis of his upbringing can be paraphrased as such:

When an infant is born, he does not have the capacity to distinguish his parents as separate entities from himself. He does not see them as the people they are, but sees them as the FANTASY of them he has in his mind. Of course he SEES them there literally, lol, but he does not SEE them for who they are...normal screwed up adults. He sees them as gods, as the entire universe. He idealizes them because he's not aware of who they REALLY are. THey aren't Joe and Sue Farmer. They are Mommy and Daddy to him and that makes all the difference. I don't know why infants have this idealizing function (Janine could you help me out with that? Why do infants view others idealistically and as extensions of the self as infants? I would really like to know)

(maybe a survival mechanism, because entering the world is incredibly scary and you must be able to trust the caretakers before assimilating yourself into reality? and because our lack of trust we stay stuck in this loop?)

He also sees them as EXTENSIONS of himself, like arms or legs. A part of him. He sees the world as him and him as the world. The center of the universe.

He both WORSHIPS his parents and BELIEVES himself to be "god" or the center of the universe if you will.

He will express this by IDEALIZING his parents ("daddy, you're my hero!"...think of hte happy childhood memories where daddy saved the day, those big scary adults held you and protected you, back when they were so much taller.) and being very EXHIBIONIST...flamboyant, showing off.

In the adequate enviornment, if the parent LETS themselves be worshipped by the child until they can make a smooth transition into what is real and true, and if they let the child display a healthy amount of exhibitionism (im going to look the part on exhibitionism up), the child is able to develop an integrated self and have a sense of what is him and what is the world around him, and when he sees his parents as who they really are it will have been a slow, steady, SAFE maturation of his views and he will be confident in himself and his ability to function in the world.

If NOT, if the parent withdraws their love, or suffocates the child never letting him be who HE is but rather CONTROLLING him, or if the parent somehow ABUSES the child, be it sexually or physically, or if hte parent HUMILIATES the child (Wilhelm II was a product of Crown Princess Victoria's humiliation of him and withdrawal of love because he was born with a severely recessed left arm and this made Victoria believe that he could not be as "perfect" as the image of her dead father whom she still carried in her mind as an idol.) ...if the parent does these ABNORMAL things because she herself or he himself is still not a fully integrated adult, then development is stifled.

You, me...a lot of us here...all we are is still stuck in the narcissistic stage of infancy and early childhood.

What is freaking us out is this world were we are NOT the only one. We still have that infant belief. We still, on some level, BELIEVE we are the only one and that others are an extension of ourself. We don't have real relationships with people, instead we have fantasy worlds where we only see an idealized/villlainized image of people, where we hold very black and white views because they can ONLY be heroes or if they have lost our favor they can ONLY be villains, because we are so god damned afraid of people and the world since even our own PARENTS showed us that we cannot trust even the closest of people, we remain stuck in this idealistic/nacissistic/fantasy world where it is safe. I don't need you. I am the only one. I don't need anybody. (or in a DP fit, "NO ONE CAN REACH ME! NO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND ME! NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THIS AND NO ONE IS LISTENING!!!") We try to simultaneously shape ourselves to our ideas of what people want us to be. Because we see others as an extension of ourselves, pleasing those OTHERS will be our way of accepting ourselves. After all, people are still only metaphorically our arms and legs and we have to get all those "body parts" to work with and accept and adore us as much as we adore them. Our parents did not help us with this stage.

What the SUFFERING of dp is, is actually (to quote Janine) REALITY trying to break through. (no, not some other goddamned dimension. Don't try to teleport yourself. no this is not how the world REALLY is, you are not doomed to terror. but what IS terror-inducing is that you are growing up, your mind has been active for almost or more than twenty years and because of that you cannot POSSIBLY keep pitting that narcissistic self against what you see in reality, and this is what brings about the terror and the breakdown. TO quote Janine again, the world is not falling apart, it is the falling apart of your structure of [narcissistic] defenses that is falling apart. Defenses that you created because ALL infants create them but YOURS were not gradually let down as a child. They're all coming down now. You're facing the pain of growing up, just not gradually like most people; you're getting it all at ONCE.) The reaity is the Reality of us not being the only one. The reality is also that people we love also have bad, sometimes very bad qualities to them, but that does not make them monsters or villains. We can learn to see THROUGH what they are doing or what we thought they were, and work with them as we would anybody else. We can see that maybe their meanness or oppressive caring or something else has given us a false impression of the world. We can see that their vicarious visions of what we would be does not mean we have to be that.

And WE have a bad side too. We may in an effort to protect ourselves "cut out" that bad side in US and our loved ones. But we're humans. We are capable of killing each other and ourselves. That does not mean we will lose control and do that, but if you spend so much time PRETENDING like you don't have certain parts of yourself such as your badness or your envy, .....if you AVOID those certain negative qualitites of yourself, then you don't get to EXPERIENCE your anger and such...and whatever you AVOID is perceived by your mind as too scary to deal with...it would have to be too scary, or else why would you avoid it? so your mind makes a MONSTER of those parts of yourself that you ignore, it says that your anger will KILL and that your Jealousy will HUMILIATE you...so then you actually BELIEVE that if you let go of the control of yourself you will go on a Jealous killing rampage.

No...it's a trick by your mind to KEEP YOU FROM DELVING INTO THOSE 'BAD' EMOTIONS BECAUSE YOU HAD TO PROTECT YOURSELF FROM WHAT YOU THOUGHT MIGHT HAVE HURT YOU WHEN YOU WERE AN INFANT. Anger and pain and such...those hurt. An infant is already so scared of the world, why add more fear? These are called DEFENSES. YOUR MIND HAD TO PROTECT YOU FROM ANYTHING BAD. And now that you MUST confront the bad parts of you, your mind is saying "NO, this is DANGEROUS..." and if you keep pushing towards those things your mind will say "Goddamnit, why aren't you LISTENING TO ME? THIS IS REALLY DANGEROUS. [ok, you know what? she isn't listening to me. I am really going to show her that this is dangerous.] IF YOU DONT IGNORE THIS PART OF YOU YOU WILL SNAP AND BECOME AN INSANE PSYCHO KILLER!"

No. THe fear of snapping or murderous rage is a defense to keep you from ignoring your NORMAL anger and NORMAL lack of control and NORMAL jealousy.

But you're still stuck in teh narcissistic phase where you need a PHENOMENAL amount of control (or you feel you need it), and you need ONLY good emotions to shield yourself from the scary world.

So anything that challenges that structure will be a devastating threat. It will make you think you are the most violent and insane criminal alive, JUST TO KEEP YOU FROM FEELING YOUR ANGER. JUST TO KEEP YOU FROM FEELING ANY FEELINGS THAT MIGHT BE HARMFUL.

My friends, your minds are doing SUCH a good job at protecting you, this is WHY you have those horribly terrible thoughts...it's not a punishment, it's your mind saying "I must protect you from parts of yourself that I don't think you are ready for."

What you have to work on is GROWING AND DEVELOPING OUT OF YOUR NARCISSISTIC STAGE so your mind can fully ACCEPT REALITY and not have to revert to DP.

 

[person3]

also may i add in narcissistic stages you only view people as something to protect you...like your parents....you idealize many people because you need parents to idealize when your own parents let you down.

of course what we're trying to get past here is the idealization thing...because that's what gets you into trouble now...

 

[person3]

cynthia, fear of death + fear of loss of yourself can be an unconscious DESIRE to "lose yourself", to "lose control"...to not have to keep ahold on yourself and know you won't be taken to the loony bin because of it. (which you wont)

(duh)

fear of death could be that your old narcissistic self is DYING and that is the only self you knew so it feels like actual death.

but it is also a DESIRE of "death", a DESIRE to grow out of this old self, a desire for your narcissitic self to die as it must because it is like a snake's skin, necessary but must be shed and that is a part of life. Its not a BAD thing you had this narcissistic self (which you might think of shamefully at some point..."how coudl i be so stupid and immature?"), it is just a part of growth, nothing to be ashamed of, but that part is over and dying and in its place is being born YOU as an ADULT. You literally ARE a sleeping beauty at this point!

You are growing emotionally, and this is all DP is...a conflict between growth and stagnation.

 

[Depersonalized]

That totally does not apply to me.

I despise DP, I want it to be gone from my mind. There is not a single *unconscious* disire in me that wants to be insane. I hope I'll have time to kill myself before I'll turn into vegetable. All I want is to feel alive. I want to feel happiness, sadness, fear...(not the kind of fear you get with DP). I miss all those feelings and I want them back.

I still see DP as a disorder, which can be and will be cured someday.

And believing that DP is something that we want subconsciously sounds pretty *schizophrenic* to me.