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Dutch filmmaker murdered by muslim extremist

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sc said:
I am hardly an expert in religions. However, it should be obvious to anyone even remotely familiar with the Muslim faith that, that particular religion preaches peace. The Muslim "fanatics" are not acting in the name of Allah. Rather, they are acting out of hatred and personal agenda - hiding behind their religion. The fact that there are so many "terrorists" from the Middle East is more a result of other cultural factors. And remember, one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Take the Israeli government, for example. Middle Eastern country, non-Muslim, and yet perhaps the most active terrorist organization in the world. Openly sponsored by the United States - mostly for military reasons (we need a presence in that area).

Nothing is new under the sun. Terrorists, freedom fighters, fanatics, whatever you want to call them, have been around since the beginning. You take one out and ten more will rise in their place. It's not new, and it won't stop. The only surprising thing about it is that the U.S. has been soooooo lucky. So far.
Agreed. I'll buy all of this. There are extremists in EVERY religion. There are so many sects that break off from the "mother" religion it makes one's head spin.

And religious pundits argue the meaning of religious texts... the Bible for goodness sake.

Extremests, zealots in any form -- political, religious, etc. -- are trouble, but they've always been out there.

Wendy I'm sorry to hear about that documentary maker. I did read a brief blurb about that.

And people forget, we are very lucky here in the US, but the WTC was attacked in 1993... a truck bomb that did far less damage.

Ah, and re: the numerical projections. I don't really buy that myself. Problem, sometimes these plans have to be scuttled at the last minute. And we know that one of the planes, possibly headed for the White House, was brought down by the passengers. Don't think the hijackers anticipated that.

If we found a numerical pattern, we'd be way ahead of the game.

Also, it's my understanding that there is a LOT of stuff going on that we simply can't hear about... intelligence, counter intelligence, etc. How can we reveal our actions ahead of time if we get a tip from a reliable source. And what if we act incorrectly with an unreliable source. There really is a James Bond game going on out there as well.

It's a mad world.
One day at a time.
I'm afraid to sleep, perchance to dream tonight.

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Nothing is simple. Where is there a safe place in this world?
Hang in there Wendy.
This is why I don't believe we can be isolationists. We are in a global, interconnected world... a tiny little planet. We've got to get our act together, TOGETHER, and I don't know how.

Netherlands Braces for 'Jihad'
By Anthony Deutsch
Alternative Press | November 11, 2004

THE HAGUE ? "The Dutch government yesterday vowed tough measures against what a leading politician called "the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat to a Dutch lawmaker was found spiked with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker by his radical Muslim attacker.

A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders ? including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament ? to take on bodyguards.

The document, attached to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An Open Letter to [Aayan] Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Mr. van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.

Miss Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.

"Death, Ms. Hirsi Ali, is the common theme of all that exists. You and the rest of the cosmos cannot escape this truth," the letter said.

"There will come a day when one soul cannot help another soul. A day that goes paired with terrible tortures, ... when the unjust will press horrible screams from their lungs.

"Screams, Ms. Hirsi Ali, that will cause chills to run down a person's back, and make the hairs on their heads stand straight up. People will be drunk with fear, while they are not drunken. Fear will fill the air on the Great Day," the letter said.

"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.

Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Mr. van Gogh's slaying a declaration of Islamic jihad, or "holy war."

"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."

Among measures under consideration is an emergency law to enable authorities to revoke the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity so that they can be deported.

Mr. Zalm said the intelligence service, which already has expanded since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, would receive more funding to help it monitor potential terrorist recruits.

The suspected killer in the van Gogh case, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan national, was arraigned on six terrorism-related charges.

Mr. van Gogh, a descendant of 19th-century Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh, was fatally shot and stabbed Tuesday while cycling down an Amsterdam street. The remains of the provocative social commentator and author, whose throat was slashed in the attack, will be cremated Tuesday in a public service.

The slaying is testing already strained relations between the ethnic Dutch population and the Muslim community. There are about 300,000 Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands out of a population of 16 million.

Mr. Zalm said talks were ongoing with Muslim groups over how to avoid a violent backlash against Muslims.

Arsonists are believed to have set fire to a mosque in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, police spokesman Peter Keijzers said. There were no reports of injuries.

Jozias van Aartsen, parliamentary speaker for the nationalist People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), the second-largest party in the government of Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, issued a statement that called Mr. van Gogh's slaying tantamount to a declaration of war.******

"The jihad has come to the Netherlands and a small group of jihadist terrorists is attacking the principles of our country," he said. "I hope the Netherlands will now move beyond denial and do what is fitting in a democracy ? take action.

"These people don't want to change our society, they want to destroy it," he said.

The terrorist threat left by Mr. van Gogh's killer carries the ideology of a terrorist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or "Repentance and Flight," which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch press reported.

Chief prosecutor Leo de Wit said the suspected killer, identified only as Mohammed B., faces at least six terrorism-related counts, including charges of murder and "participating in a criminal organization with terrorist characteristics."

The suspect, wounded in the leg in a shootout with police, has refused to talk to investigators. He was arrested with a note in his pocket titled "Drenched in Blood."

Authorities arrested eight other suspects in Mr. van Gogh's slaying and are looking into any links between the suspects and foreign terrorist groups.

Two suspects were released, Mr. de Wit said yesterday. Six will be charged with conspiring to commit murder, he said.

Prosecutors said all are Islamic radicals of North African ancestry. Four also were arrested Oct. 23 on suspicion of plotting a terrorist attack but were released for lack of evidence. Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament the four had contacts with a suspect in last year's Casablanca bombings."

***** As Dreamer notes... and so it goes. Here the Dutch find the slaying of one man unnacceptable and "a declaration of war." And we in the US who lost 3,000 civilians .... what should we call this? It isn't a war, it isn't a war on terrorism, it is, what? A fight for survival. But we are all afraid.**************
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Also, don't know how Jodie Foster got into the middle of all this, LOL, but one comment on gay civil unions.

I'm for them.
I also have no problem with gay couples raising kids, but more importantly they should certainly be allowed to adopt them...


Well, I have a 1/2 brother who's 73 (didn't find me until I was 30 or so) who is gay. He and his partner have been together longer than many heterosexual couples I know -- over 40 years.

He and I are very different and don't communicate, but I have to say he is a responsible man, as is his partner.

My best friend from childhood is gay. She and her partner have had a very long relationship which she has had to keep secret from her mother. Only very few people know about it. She is a wonderful person.

In my day, in Los Angeles in particular, I ran into plenty of gay people. Some I liked, some I didn't.

But I know that:
1. There are many gay couples who remain monogamous and loyal to each other for decades, again, as long as many heterosexual couples.

2. I know of gay couples who have adopted sick children, as no one would adopt said children, and help them grow up, healthy, happy. Why should we keep unwanted children in foster care or worse, when there are loving stable gay couples dying to adopt. It makes no sense. And said couples should be monitored in the same way straight adoptive parents are. There are awful heterosexual foster families out there.

3. There is no study that would indicate that children raised by gay parents make said children gay -- hey, gay kids were born of heterosexual relations, and were raised by heterosexual couples.

There are PLENTY of people out there with messed up relationships, gay or straight. What matters is if someone is a decent human being, a loving person, a contributor to society in whatever way they can be.

I may be out of my mind, but I believe in the above. And again, as always, nothing is simple, nothing is perfect, and we are all unique.

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Gimpy you said:
If gays start to adopt, they should be at the back of the list.
I know this is a hornet's nest and I didn't intend to kick it, but I did.

I realize we all have our own POVs on a lot of this stuff.

My only comment to this directly is there are MANY unwanted children who are sitting in foster care. Many are minority children, some have severe disabilities, a good number have AIDS. I can understand why many couples, gay or straight, would be afraid to take on such a responsibility.

I was very touched by a documentary I saw... forgot where... on a gay couple. One a pediatric nurse, the other a businessman of some sort. The nurse worked with sick children -- a good number with AIDS. They had been abandoned by their parents.

The senior phsycian on the ward was always in a quandry re: what to do with these children, and the nurse, (yes, he was openly gay) volunteered to take one child home, then another. The staff were always astounded that this gay couple would take on such a burden.

I believe in all they took home 5 children. I can't recall. It became a situation where the pediatric nurse stayed home, and his partner continued to be the breadwinner (and that is usually a situation I favor with heterosexual couples who raise children -- but then I was raised by a working mother who didn't give a hoot about me, and there are many exceptions to that -- so I guess I'm biased in that way. I also know in this day and age that isn't always practical financially.)

At any rate, they cared for these children for years. The first child they raised to be a teenager. I believe he is still HIV positive (the fault of his birthmother), but is healthy, an excellent student, a wonderful kid. The rest of the kids in that family (I believe over the years some came and went as they passed away) were happy, healthy, good kids who felt LOVED and WANTED.

The sad and miserable part of this story is, I believe this couple lived in Florida. After having custody of the oldest child (for ten or more years) they were told the children would have to be removed from the home for one reason -- they were gay. There is more to this re: Florida state law that I have forgotten. But bottom line, the state was ready to break up a HEALTHY loving family, take these kids away from the only parents they ever knew. The kids were miserable about it.

I believe the whole group moved to Oregon. I don't know where/how the case stands, but the couple continues to care for these children, as well as any heterosexual couple could, AND perhaps BETTER than many heterosexual couples. For goodness sake, one of their parents was a pediatric nurse! And he stayed home. He quit his job.

I wish I had more on the story. And someone correct me if the details are wrong. Oh, and none of the children "turned out gay."

But I was deeply touched by their story. It is unbelievable to me that
1. there are so many abandoned children in a seriously flawed foster care system
2. many couples and single parents are very hestitant to adobt sick children
3. yet, there are MANY gay couples who desperately want to adopt (as they can't have children themselves and prefer to adopt) and aren't allowed to. They can be often MORE QUALIFIED to adopt and are prohibited from it, and the children languish in the system.

Again this is a thorny issue, but something I am concerned about. I'll be honest, I'm less thrilled with single women choosing to have children alone. And someone will get angry with me at this bias, but I was the child of a single working woman, and got no love. NONE.

Again, I would take a loving accepting couple of ANY orientation that has a child's best interests at heart. And being heterosexual doesn't guarantee that at all.

I can understand your POV, but this is mine. And I don't intend this to turn into a gay argument. That will go nowehre fast, but it somehow popped up in this thread and I felt compelled to respond.

Gimpy, sometimes a gay couple may be the most qualified on a list to adopt. I don't believe they should be passed over. The definition of family has changed over the years. And again, I'm biased, as I had two wealthy heterosexual parents, both doctors, they split up early on, and was never loved.
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Forgot to say.

I am for gay "CIVIL UNIONS". I don't see "marriage" as the proper word. I.E. I can see that this is against church doctrine and churches have every right to refuse to marry gay couples, or synagogues or mosques,etc.

But I can see many benefits to civil unions which give said monogamous, commited couples important rights. And the end result is of benefit to society.

Again, my POV, and I know I don't speak for everyone here.
Gimpy, you said the following, and I've received a number of PMs noting that these comments are extremely hurtful to a number of people on the board.

I don't wish to delete your post or lock this thread....

I don't really know what the general females consensus is towards lesbian sex so I can't speak for you all, but I know tons of guys would vomit at the sight of it. When I saw that sodomy scene in "Pulp Fiction" for the first time, I nearly threw up, and they really didn't show anything. I don't know. Most guys prefer be with well-groomed women with good hygiene and no body hair. No guy wants some sweathog. But, different strokes for different folks.
Briefly, hoping to diffuse a situation I suppose I shouldn't have opened up...

Straight couples show sometimes "excessive" affection in public. There are also clubs for heterosexual sexual activity, "massage parlors" for men that are... far more than "massage parlors", there are prostitutes who service all manner of clientele gay and straight. There are strip clubs, websites, porn films which are directed at both straight and gay people, etc., etc., etc. It goes both ways.

Also, agreed. The association with being gay or straight is not focused strictly on sex, particularly a union of two people who love each other and are life companions.

Gimpy, I think we're talking in stereotypes here, and it has gotten hurtful to a number of people here -- though yes, I believe in freedom of speech.

Um, this is fine for debate, but let's be a tad more considerate.
OIY, politics, religion, etc..... wonderful to debate, but delicate topics.
Yup, let's try a tad more courtesy here. I don't want to delete any posts ... or lock the thread. But, as noted, I have received a number of PMs regarding this -- regarding comments that become rude and hurtful. I would agree the above is rude and hurtful and sterotypical.

I can't even remember what the topic was here... ah the murder of the artist in the Netherlands......

.... enuf.... as Gavin or someone else said somewhere else, "Let's play nice folks" ....

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SoulBrotha said:
sc i don't think this group is that diverse at all outside of the Homosexual/Straight categories. Oh yeah and theres people from countries outside of the US...... but this website is like 90 % suburban middle class caucasion.
Dear Bro,
The board is skewed in terms of who posts. There are people from all over who merely view this board as guests, or lurk. Americans usually are fluent in English only, while members of other countries are fluent in English as well as their native language. Some fluent in more than 2 languages.

We have members from all over the world visit here, whether or not they post or identify themselves, and we have gay and straight members.

Regardless of how many are represented, this doesn't justify bashing other nationalities/religions/creeds/sexual orientation etc. Also, someone's family heritage could be of pride to an individual.

I believe in free speech on this board. But there is no excuse for cruel stereotyping and attacks, I don't care who is reading this board.

Also, remember this board is visited by DP researchers, and doctors who have been referred here by members (I've referred many people here from my site).

No attack is justified, and I hope I haven't been guilty of that.

This is a support forum. There is enough suffering here. We don't need to add insult to injury, even in an off-topic forum that helps us keep our minds OFF the DP.

Oh, and briefly re: civil unions. Heterosexuals who are not part of any particular religion have civil unions. All a civil union is, is one done by a Justice of the Peace, etc. One can be perfomred at the location where one gets a marriage license. I believe ship captains can perform civil ceremonies. Civil unions already exist for heterosexuals, and many are performed every year. I don't know the statistics.

They're also a helluva lot less expensive than having a wedding... but I personally (though I am not of any particular faith) wanted an informal religious ceremony vs. a civil ceremony. I wanted a pretty dress (I bought a lovely bridesmaid's dress), my husband in a tux, and a minister, and a photographer. Had I married as a young woman, I would have wanted the whole nine yards.

I really miss that, as I miss not having children.
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And I forgot to say, the mentally ill are stereotyped and bashed -- in the media, and by family members, friends, etc. We are all subject to bashing for having DP and other disorders here such as anxiety, OCD, depression, etc., etc. We are misunderstood, accused of being weak and lazy. Attacked for taking medications.

I'm always on my soapbox here saying I hate the words "schizo", "whako", etc. I know sometimes these things are said in an offhanded way and without malice, but on the internet, we can't "read" the humor all the times.

Also, in these times of profiling Muslims (which is inevitable since 9/11), well there are Muslims in the U.S., Canada, the UK, etc., etc., etc. And not all Muslims are terrorists, etc. This very topic is about Muslim extremists in the Netherlands!

Just unnecessary, and not justified.

OK, now off my soapbox.
In the spirit of healthy debate with some consideration.
And in peace, or the hope of peace.
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