[retrobot]

wassup folks, hope all is well.

basically my DR has almost vanished... it only gets triggered when I am extremely stressed.
goodbye to the panic attacks also.
I still have DP/Emotional Bluntness which is improving day by day.

I can finally function and do things again!


WF.

 

[35467]

Good for you.
You have been a member here for 13.days. 4.days ago you wanted to commit suicide and now you are 99% cured due expensive herbal remedies.

 

[retrobot]

Thank you!

I have been suffering for 6 years on/off > I barely join sites.. I just read and take info an apply it, although this time it me like a train.
I am not sure if it is the supplements that helped or just my anxiety levels calming down, either way I am not complaining.

WF.

 

[Trith]

Awesome!!

 

[35467]

NOTE.
The original post starting this thread is partly deleted by moderator and changed by author. It contained the claim of a rapid change due to some herbal medicine and a link to a online shop with the herbal medicine. So, it could be read as a promotion of products as a cure as where to get them.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Placebo is a known problem and effect in many research programmers in psychiatry. It is the case in almost all depression studies and it is estimated that it is close to 30% and 100% if people much better after a few days after some kind of "treatment". Placebo is a huge problem in almost all trails in depersonalization. All trails are very small in size, no control group and almost no follow up. It is due to under founding of research into depersonalization. It is very frustrating as nothing can be taken or should be taken as valid. The naltrexone and naloxone trail are examples of "trails" that potentially could be pure placebo- small, no control group, no follow up. The case is that many afterwards have tried to replicate those "studies" without any success.
There is a lot of placebo spammer posts of this forum and when you do a follow up those posting they are after some time back to where they came from. They medicine or herbal remedies had stopped "working". Always assume is placebo if people write about a recent change. Only take a post serious if it validated after some months,- if not,-ignore it as spam.

 

[leminaseri]

Placebo is a known problem and effect in many research programmers in psychiatry. It is the case in almost all depression studies and it is estimated that it is close to 30% and 100% if people much better after a few days after some kind of "treatment". Placebo is a huge problem in almost all trails in depersonalization. All trails are very small in size, no control group and almost no follow up. It is due to under founding of research into depersonalization. It is very frustrating as nothing can be taken or should be taken as valid. The naltrexone and naloxone trail are examples of "trails" that potentially could be pure placebo- small, no control group, no follow up. The case is that many afterwards have tried to replicate those "studies" without any success.
There is a lot of placebo spammer posts of this forum and when you do a follow up those posting they are after some time back to where they came from. They medicine or herbal remedies had stopped "working". Always assume is placebo if people write about a recent change. Only take a post serious if it validated after some months,- if not,-ignore it as spam.

what do we learn? we can feel better or „cured“ or „recovered“ even the „disorder“ is still in our brains. that, what you show as a hopelessness for psychiatric conditions, is for me the biggest prove that any humanbeing can change his plastic brain. of course there may be some conditions where the symptoms are totally caused physically. then you know anyway what to do. im just talking about anxiety-trauma-psychologically caused dpdr. if one have a brain infection its obvious he have to treat the infection. the whole discussion about dpdr is due to the psychological causes.

can you explain me scientifically why it is not possible to get into a permanent placebo condition? when the placebo lasts 5 days and everything feels like „i have recovered“ what happens at day 6 for the relapse? you seem to be someone who still waits for the magic-oneshot-cure. and yeah i know, you tried everything. but we do not have a scientific evidence for it. so i can not believe you tried everything xd

 

[35467]

Placebo is not lasting and it quickly subsides in people. In trails the placebo effect can last for the period when you showing up for a daily treatment. When they do a follow up 1.month to 3.month after they will typically be back to "normal". You can see this in many posting on this forum with people trying different thing and claim a response within a few days or just trying a very low starting dose. Some can make post after some days or weeks that it have stopped working. So, their posting was placebo-spam.
In 2017 one made a post about getting better after an injection called "stellate ganglion block". Many tried it and it was costly for many. I did and it cost me 2500-3000.euros in travel and "treatment". No, one benefited. The person making the post was last active on this forum 4.days ago,- he still got DP.
Shall we learn for this; never make posts about recent changes and if one does- be open to that he is likely a retarded seeking attention; want to take his own life one day and 99% cured 4.days later. if you will take him serious and his placebo serious - you might be a low IQ retard too. The cost of ignoring placebo and persons who post them is very costly for most of us.

 

[leminaseri]

Placebo is not lasting and it quickly subsides in people. In trails the placebo effect can last for the period when you showing up for a daily treatment. When they do a follow up 1.month to 3.month after they will typically be back to "normal". You can see this in many posting on this forum with people trying different thing and claim a response within a few days or just trying a very low starting dose. Some can make post after some days or weeks that it have stopped working. So, their posting was placebo-spam.
In 2017 one made a post about getting better after an injection called "stellate ganglion block". Many tried it and it was costly for many. I did and it cost me 2500-3000.euros in travel and "treatment". No, one benefited. The person making the post was last active on this forum 4.days ago,- he still got DP.
Shall we learn for this; never make posts about recent changes and if one does- be open to that he is likely a retarded seeking attention; want to take his own life one day and 99% cured 4.days later. if you will take him serious and his placebo serious - you might be a low IQ retard too. The cost of ignoring placebo and persons who post them is very costly for most of us.

you didnt give a single answer to my questions. if you try sgb because of a forum post, then it is just your own decision. you are searching for a cure, for a pill for a single shot. no one i know or met on the internet has recovered with something like tms or medicine. nobody. the only people who did it to recover solved deep inner emotional conflicts and faced their fears or transformed their life to one what is liveable. the only thing why someone gets psychologically dpdr is the brain doesnt want to deal anymore with the emotional problems of the real life. everybody who recover thank to medicine treated just a primary illness what caused their dpdr in the first place

 

[Trith]

Placebo is not lasting and it quickly subsides in people. In trails the placebo effect can last for the period when you showing up for a daily treatment. When they do a follow up 1.month to 3.month after they will typically be back to "normal". You can see this in many posting on this forum with people trying different thing and claim a response within a few days or just trying a very low starting dose. Some can make post after some days or weeks that it have stopped working. So, their posting was placebo-spam.
In 2017 one made a post about getting better after an injection called "stellate ganglion block". Many tried it and it was costly for many. I did and it cost me 2500-3000.euros in travel and "treatment". No, one benefited. The person making the post was last active on this forum 4.days ago,- he still got DP.
Shall we learn for this; never make posts about recent changes and if one does- be open to that he is likely a retarded seeking attention; want to take his own life one day and 99% cured 4.days later. if you will take him serious and his placebo serious - you might be a low IQ retard too. The cost of ignoring placebo and persons who post them is very costly for most of us.

That's a bit harsch, I don't know how you could know that someone isn't sincere when they say they want to end their life and are cured four days later. People wanting to end their life because of DPDR isn't absolutely uncommon, apparently, and people having spontaneous sudden remission isn't also completely uncommon, herbs or not. (people wanting attention are not totally uncommon either, but personnally I am less afraid of being tricked by an attention seeker than wrongfully accusing someone who is actually suffering).

It's also possible to feel some effect when one is taking some molecule, and still have the effect dissappear or reduce after a while without being a placebo. It works like that to some extent with opioids, antidepressants, benzodiazepines and so on. And it can be the case with unwanted side effects as well, that are present only in the beginning of the treatment. So, I mean that the observation that the effect disappears after a while should not be enough to conclude that it is a placebo/nocebo effect. The right way to determine that would be to do a controlled experiment, and that's why we do such experiments. But I think that you mean that there is so much placebo stuff everywhere and probably around here for people who deal with a lot of anxiety that it is safer (and often cheaper) to keep the placebo hypothesis as the null hypothesis.

Anyway, placebo or not, if the positive effect doesn't last it's not that interesting anyway, so if it is expensive or very time taking, it's maybe better to wait and see.

The other thing I was wondering about is the meaning we give to placebo or contextual effects (I am not 100% of their definitions). It seems to me that when a molecule is tested, everything that isn't the molecule counts as contextual effect, so any psychological effect that is not being tested in the trial. But what if a person is stuck in a "DPDR symptom obsession --> anxiety --> more DPDR" viscious cycle, one could assume that a short experience of having less symptoms (or less obsessing over symptoms) could be beneficial on the long run, no? And couldn't this be brought by a contextual effect, among other things?

 

[35467]

you didnt give a single answer to my questions. if you try sgb because of a forum post, then it is just your own decision. you are searching for a cure, for a pill for a single shot. no one i know or met on the internet has recovered with something like tms or medicine. nobody. the only people who did it to recover solved deep inner emotional conflicts and faced their fears or transformed their life to one what is liveable. the only thing why someone gets psychologically dpdr is the brain doesnt want to deal anymore with the emotional problems of the real life. everybody who recover thank to medicine treated just a primary illness what caused their dpdr in the first place

I did answer you. If you was capable of reading the reply about SGB you would see that it was about the person posting it about it being a cure and still being symptomatic. At that time some put up sites for public funding so they could get a SGB. I wrote with a French girl very desperate and who considered trying it. It would cost her family all their savings. I think around 4-5.people in the US and Canada went to Chicago to try. A cost of 1200.dollars. I said to her that I could give it a try because it was not a large sum to me,- so I did. I have tried many thing very aware that the trails are small and not replicated under the correct conditions. I have never recommended to other to take treatment that was not replicated larger scale by many. You have no problems with this site posting placebo related to that turns out to fail both for the one who posts it and those who tries to replicate it?

 

[35467]

That's a bit harsch, I don't know how you could know that someone isn't sincere when they say they want to end their life and are cured four days later. People wanting to end their life because of DPDR isn't absolutely uncommon, apparently, and people having spontaneous sudden remission isn't also completely uncommon, herbs or not. (people wanting attention are not totally uncommon either, but personnally I am less afraid of being tricked by an attention seeker than wrongfully accusing someone who is actually suffering).

It's also possible to feel some effect when one is taking some molecule, and still have the effect dissappear or reduce after a while without being a placebo. It works like that to some extent with opioids, antidepressants, benzodiazepines and so on. And it can be the case with unwanted side effects as well, that are present only in the beginning of the treatment. So, I mean that the observation that the effect disappears after a while should not be enough to conclude that it is a placebo/nocebo effect. The right way to determine that would be to do a controlled experiment, and that's why we do such experiments. But I think that you mean that there is so much placebo stuff everywhere and probably around here for people who deal with a lot of anxiety that it is safer (and often cheaper) to keep the placebo hypothesis as the null hypothesis.

Anyway, placebo or not, if the positive effect doesn't last it's not that interesting anyway, so if it is expensive or very time taking, it's maybe better to wait and see.

The other thing I was wondering about is the meaning we give to placebo or contextual effects (I am not 100% of their definitions). It seems to me that when a molecule is tested, everything that isn't the molecule counts as contextual effect, so any psychological effect that is not being tested in the trial. But what if a person is stuck in a "DPDR symptom obsession --> anxiety --> more DPDR" viscious cycle, one could assume that a short experience of having less symptoms (or less obsessing over symptoms) could be beneficial on the long run, no? And couldn't this be brought by a contextual effect, among other things?

Spontaneous sudden remission have never been described literature. I and others have experienced some rapid reduction on benzodiazepines in the rage of 30%. In general can you say that drugs that have a rapid effect also is highly addictive and a tolerance problem will come after some months.

 

[leminaseri]

Spontaneous sudden remission have never been described literature. I and others have experienced some rapid reduction on benzodiazepines in the rage of 30%. In general can you say that drugs that have a rapid effect also is highly addictive and a tolerance problem will come after some months.

explain us. how can someone feel recovered and is been convinced about it and then 6 days later he relapses? how? what does happen in the brain when placebo comes?

 

[35467]

explain us. how can someone feel recovered and is been convinced about it and then 6 days later he relapses? how? what does happen in the brain when placebo comes?

I have tried many drugs over the years and never experienced any improvement or placebo. I think that recent outset might have a high placebo effect, personality type and likely also intelligence. People with low intelligence is more into religion, magical thinking and likely also placebo. I don´t think people feel fully recovered, more likely a change they see as a recovery. It get posted as a recovery.

 

[leminaseri]

I have tried many drugs over the years and never experienced any improvement or placebo. I think that recent outset might have a high placebo effect, personality type and likely also intelligence. People with low intelligence is more into religion, magical thinking and likely also placebo. I don´t think people feel fully recovered, more likely a change they see as a recovery. It get posted as a recovery.

how do you know, i felt recovered between 2014 and 2019. maybe it was just placebo?

 

[35467]

how do you know, i felt recovered between 2014 and 2019. maybe it was just placebo?

You likely was recovered. It is seen that many have an outset of depersonalization for some years a slowly recover most though distraction but becomes symptomatic again in stressful period and it goes into a more chronic direction.
Placebo in very sudden and related to events and interventions in a short period. That is why they normally have a large patients size, a control group that gets a "fake" intervention that is not active and a follow up. People who respond to placebo will usually fell symptomatic again some weeks to months after a intervention. That is why most studies do a follow up 1 to 3.months after a trail. Almost all trials in depersonalization are small, have no control group and no follow up. So, you become highly dependent on people who have tried it and see if it replicates or not. Some studies do in some and other do not.

 

[REB]

lol. That was a wild ride.
Happy it ended well though! <3

 

[leminaseri]

You likely was recovered. It is seen that many have an outset of depersonalization for some years a slowly recover most though distraction but becomes symptomatic again in stressful period and it goes into a more chronic direction.
Placebo in very sudden and related to events and interventions in a short period. That is why they normally have a large patients size, a control group that gets a "fake" intervention that is not active and a follow up. People who respond to placebo will usually fell symptomatic again some weeks to months after a intervention. That is why most studies do a follow up 1 to 3.months after a trail. Almost all trials in depersonalization are small, have no control group and no follow up. So, you become highly dependent on people who have tried it and see if it replicates or not. Some studies do in some and other do not.

this is so non sense why should the second time be more chronic?

 

[retrobot]

Placebo is a known problem and effect in many research programmers in psychiatry. It is the case in almost all depression studies and it is estimated that it is close to 30% and 100% if people much better after a few days after some kind of "treatment". Placebo is a huge problem in almost all trails in depersonalization. All trails are very small in size, no control group and almost no follow up. It is due to under founding of research into depersonalization. It is very frustrating as nothing can be taken or should be taken as valid. The naltrexone and naloxone trail are examples of "trails" that potentially could be pure placebo- small, no control group, no follow up. The case is that many afterwards have tried to replicate those "studies" without any success.
There is a lot of placebo spammer posts of this forum and when you do a follow up those posting they are after some time back to where they came from. They medicine or herbal remedies had stopped "working". Always assume is placebo if people write about a recent change. Only take a post serious if it validated after some months,- if not,-ignore it as spam.

I highly doubt it's a placebo effect and this is my second time getting depersonalisation. The first time I opened the pandoras box was back in 2017 after smoking marijuana. I 100% recovered in 1 year.

This time I was smoking CBD Flower with 0.01% THC to ease my anxiety and was agoraphobic at the time due to intrusive thoughts, I lived an afraid life. I had a panic attack and ended up back in the maze.

This time it is more symptom based... yes I do get existential rumination but they don't scare me at all. I'd say this time is a lot harder to deal with since distraction is ineffective, lack of interest, emotional numbness is all new to me.

I think once you get used to this version of dp and conquer it, the mind will eventually return to its normal state and lastly if you have recovered once before I don't see why you can't recover again?

 

[retrobot]

this is so non sense why should the second time be more chronic?

This is the reason I ran away from this site and never joined, > back in 2017 this site was packed with amazing people and a few sour grapes.
now its full of chaos and negativity. Honestly man run away from this site and if we don't recover who cares at least we don't have a terminal illness we achieve things > it's going to cost us blood, sweat and tears but in the end we have no choice, it's either you accept this and live your life to best of your capabilities or be some random dude on the internet talking about placebo effects for the rest of your life.

 

[35467]

This is the reason I ran away from this site and never joined, > back in 2017 this site was packed with amazing people and a few sour grapes.
now its full of chaos and negativity. Honestly man run away from this site and if we don't recover who cares at least we don't have a terminal illness we achieve things > it's going to cost us blood, sweat and tears but in the end we have no choice, it's either you accept this and live your life to best of your capabilities or be some random dude on the internet talking about placebo effects for the rest of your life.

So, you didn't join in 2017 when the site was "amazing"-I have posted here since 2011 and did posted in all the period. I have addressed people like you all the time. That people leave due to posts like yours in not new. You can find many historical critique from members that "cures" and "diets" have been accepted and not deleted by moderation due to potentail danger like starvation or I recently addressed recommendations of openly fake books for cure. Yes, this would be amazing if absurd claims just can be posted without "sour grapes" interfering. Yes, those sour grapes who do not recommend people doing something that might not work because a post with a 99% cure within a few days due to herbal remedies.
Here is webinar from last year made by "Unreal Charity" with two persons who was behind the foundation of the "Depersonalization research unit" at Kings College: Prof. Anthony David and Elaine Hunter. On the panel are 3.patients and members of the charity. There are clips with several other sufferers and forums like this is mentioned by one as a place she don´t come due to postings about rapid cures. But, why can't she understand that such posts makes sites like this amazing! One of the founders, Jane Charlton got depersonalization after cannabis in 2000 and became cured due to distracting for some years but have chronic for the last 10.years.