[Guest]

Remember, guys, panic attacks are very different animals from DP experiences. A panic attack has a very strong physical component ? it occurs in a time-delineated ?fixed? set period. It is based on the surge of adrenaline throughout the body ? heart races, breath is shallow, dizziness, etc. whatever your particular set of experiences are. It can work to try to ?float through? that type of experience ? as Claire Weekes describes. It surges in, rises, rises and plateaus and then subsides. It is pure biology ? once the adrenaline ?does its thing? it will subside. So to ?allow? the panic attack to wash over you can be an experience that might make work ? it will END. It will shortly prove you were right to let it happen ? and you will literally watch/feel it grow weaker and then turn into calm.

DP is an altered state of consciousness. It is ?cerebral? rather than organic. A person in the midst of a DP ?anxiety attack? ? where we are watching ourselves and feel like we are about to vanish, or go start raving insane?..- that probably has NO adrenaline surge at all. I used to look calm as a cucumber, my face looked RELAXED, my eyes looked calm, no sweat, no racing heart, no nervous look to my expression, etc?..and all the while I was in utter and abject terror. A person can STAY in that kind of ?horror moment? for a damn long time, my friends. I am not going to say HOW long, and there may not be a limit to it. But it is not time-delineated like a panic attack.

That is why, for ME, it made NO sense whatsoever to try to ?allow? the DP experience to rise and do its worst. It made NO sense to FACE it directly or tune into it or let it wash over me. It washed over me, all right ? over me, into me, out of me, and through me?and by the time an hour went by, it seemed there was literally nothing left of that creature called ?me?

DP states can be CHRONIC. They are not ?attacks? like panic or anxiety. They might be worse at different times, or less disturbing at other times. But the STATE of mind is not something that has to ?pass? in a given amount of time.

To ?tune into? that type of experience is just dumb. It will only increase the experience because the very essence of dp is a sense of self-implosion and loss of orientation of the self. Any version of paying attention to it ? fighting it, trying to talk yourself OUT of it, trying to reassure yourself about it?.all that is still FEEDING it.

That?s why ?focus outward? is about putting your attention and energies to something ELSE besides self. Naturally, I know for God?s sake, you will still be totally consumed by the dp. I am not saying that if you turn your attention away, or try to, that will make the dp stop! Of course not.

But over time, slowly, and steadily ? if you stop FEEDING it, that is your best shot at getting it to shift into a different mode of consciousness. DP is the result of introversion ? we look AT ourselves, ABOUT ourselves, in search OF ourselves?..that wild goose chase is the fuel that drives the dp.

You cannot fail to feel like yourself if you are not looking for what ?feeling like myself? feels like.
You cannot feel ?alien to yourself? if you are not clinging to ideas about what it feels like to NOT feel that way.

Unless the mind is trained ON the self, dp does not exist.

It is the tree in the forest, falling and making a sound no one hears.

We feel ?not like ourselves? because we are trying to feel LIKE ourselves.

Get it?

 

[Milan]

Janine you are so right as always.

I was having, what I suppose we could call an intense DP/DR terror experience whilst talking to the counsellor at work at the start of this year. I told her of my weird perceptions and the excruciating fear I was feeling when she then asked me to measure my breaths per minute as well as heart rate. She was surprised that it was on par with a normal relaxed person and yet inside I was scared out of my wits and sick with anxiety. After reading your post it makes so much more sense. I couldn't understand when reading about panic attacks that after you had one you were suppose to end up in some relaxed mind state, but that never happened to me. I was always full of fear though it did vary in intensity, but the fear was always there.

Also thanking you for explaining in more detail why we should not focus on our symptoms or try to let the fear rise and pass over us. In my own experience it never works, it just makes the DP/DR more intense. May be for non DP/DR related anxiety/panic it may work but for us DP/DR types it's back to 'focusing outwards'.

 

[Guest]

I am so glad that you posted on that particular topic. I hear some people talking about their DP "episodes" and think my god mine never go away. This has to be something else something far more sinister and evil. I wish that this was just plain old anxiety and panic attacks, because you can make sense out of those. You can explain that to someone and not feel like a complete freaking loon. Other people can relate to you when you talk about anxiety and panic attacks. I have kept this from my family and husband not out of fear that they would leave me or think less of me but just based on the simple fact that I can't explain it. Nobody can unless you have lived it. I have often tried to think these feelings through and try to make sense out of them and the only thing that this accomplished was scare the hell out of me because I couldn't make sense out of them. I don't believe that you can confront the demon head on persay and it will go away. I think you need to ignore it and down play it until it goes away on its own. I am getting anywhere here chief.
Kate

 

[person3]

let yourself go and yourself will come back to you.

 

[Sojourner]

I am so glad that you posted on that particular topic. I hear some people talking about their DP "episodes" and think my god mine never go away. This has to be something else something far more sinister and evil. I wish that this was just plain old anxiety and panic attacks, because you can make sense out of those. You can explain that to someone and not feel like a complete freaking loon. Other people can relate to you when you talk about anxiety and panic attacks. I have kept this from my family and husband not out of fear that they would leave me or think less of me but just based on the simple fact that I can't explain it. Nobody can unless you have lived it. I have often tried to think these feelings through and try to make sense out of them and the only thing that this accomplished was scare the hell out of me because I couldn't make sense out of them. I don't believe that you can confront the demon head on persay and it will go away. I think you need to ignore it and down play it until it goes away on its own. I am getting anywhere here chief.
Kate

Well, that's the same approach to take with panic attacks. With panic, though, one usually has to wait for the fear to leave, but the idea is to not fight it, face it, or be intimidated by it. So I see a similarity there. Maybe I'm nuts, though. It just does seem that the cure is very similar, though with panic you can't exactly get up and go out; you have to wait until the symptoms have washed over you and left.

 

[jft]

All I know is that the techniques used for panic/anxiety reduction that were used "on me" over the years helped with the anxiety and not the dp/dr. How often did I frustrate my therapist or support group folks when I did not habituate like they could. This is when the therapist would always say there was something more going on here, but yet they could never diagnose past an anxiety disorder becasue they did not know any better.
jft

 

[Sojourner]

I think of the symptoms of DP and anxiety as being situated on a spectrum, just like visible light and radio waves are situated on the electromagnetic spectrum.

 

[g-funk]

I agree with everything said here, but, when I have really bad dp, that 'about to vanish/go mad' feeling, my heart is beating so fast, I have sweat pouring off me and shaking uncontrollably. I think it basically causes a panic attack in me. Just adds a nice extra touch to the whole experience

 

[Guest]

I am just so damn confused about DP/DR I am sure I have not got DP because I feel fairly fine, its my vision that's messed up, edges seem less defined, I tried to describe it to my Neurologist and he just said he has not heard anybody describe that kind of vision before, I don't know if I have DP/DR at all anymore, I THOUGHT I had DR, maybe the rush of adrenaline fried my Brain that once, but I keep trying to explain to people the moment this happened, it happened, and stayed.

I am told it cannot be double vision because double vision is a result of both eyes looking in different directions, things look the same for me if I cover one of my eyes, this rules out double vision completely, plus my co-ordination is still superb.

I wish I could describe how things look to such a perfect extent so as somebody could say YES that's DR dont worry it can return to normal if you ignore it/get on with your life etc etc, or NO that's NOT DR go get a better Neurologist before your Brain Tumor gets out of control.

I am damned so mad that I have tried for weeks and weeks doctor after doctor after optician to Neurologist and not one F**KER can tell me WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO MY VISION!

All I get is "both your eyes are healthy" "no signs of Neurological Trauma" (well I am still awaiting my CT scan that the Neurologist was so reluctant to give me, gonna be ages coz he said it was NON-urgent) BUT I CANT SEE PROPERLY ANYMORE!!!!!!!

I had a load of pressure in my head come on the other evening, and I started to panic, it was not a panic attack because it LASTED steadily, the pressure was there and I was really worried and stressed about it and went to hospital because I thought my Brain tumor or cerebral edema was finally peaking towards my final death, doctor took my blood pressure and it was 162/82 which was high and he said I needed to start Medication for high blood pressure, I don't think he realised how stressed I was at the time he took it, I have been having it monitored 5 - 6 times a day because I wanted to be sure that I have "HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE" before I am condemned to medication for the rest of my what was very athletic and active YOUNG life (I am only 30 for fux sake) the following few days I had several readings of 110/60 and 120/78 etc etc etc after the gym it was 146/78 and it is sometimes 130/70 it varies really but the only time it has hit high since then was when I was in my neurologists office the other day and it hit 150/80 so maybe the doctor, should have instead of making me think I am buggered and have high BP, entertained the thought I have high BP AT THAT TIME because I am FREAKING STRESSED ALL TO HELL!

the fact remains nobody seems to be able to find out what is wrong with me and I am getting sick of trying to figure out what is wrong with me myself, the closest thing I can think of IS that time, when this first happened, when I got really stressed, I felt a rush of adrenaline/blood or whatever to my head, kind of, it was like a really stressful moment, and then BANG that was it, since then, I have seen like this, surreal and less defined edges, fuzzy kind of, the stand by light on my TV is no longer a nice clear dot, its kind of fuzzy and unclear, despite my eyes having no problems with focus and good eye sight, so explanation? I had an attack of high blood pressure and had a stroke, hence my brain feeling fucked since, I fried it.

I am really unhappy to be honest.

I guess the CT scan will pick up if I had a stroke, or if there is something else nasty going on in there, I just cant see how "DR" can make my vision like this, I can sure understand it having a feeling of surreal, because that's a sensible defence mechanism for somebody who is really stressed/worried allot to protect them in a way, but that fact is along with the dream-like state, which I swear I barely notice anymore because I cant remember what it was like before, is this damn VISION thing. and the fact it came and STAYED, not like DR which comes when people have bloody panic attacks! and I only started panicking and worrying SO MUCH about whats wrong with me SINCE the symptoms came (the feeling of surreal and kind of weird vision) it was AFTER that.

since my BP gets so high when I get so stressed, it was surely some sort of stroke.

 

[enngirl5]

This is so frustrating. What am I supposed to do, someone with panic attacks/agoraphobia, and dp. Ignore it the rest of my life and always have that fear in the back of my head that I may go crazy at any moment?

 

[jake]

enngirl5; I can relate completely. I been reading stuff here past 2 days and feel more confused. I know that's not the intention of Janine. I somehow feel like my mind keeps trying to tke in what she says and I just can't get a handle. I too have panic attacks with DP, DP in general with always an underlying anxiety, and some social and agoraphobia. Also Major Depressive illness and Dysthymia. If something big comes along in life I'm knocked off kilter pretty bad. I keep thinking if I could just recall what it was that happened I could make sense, but the further back I go (I ws saying 3 months, now I'm remembering last year the same stuff), the more I see I have been in some kind of denial. I don't know. I'll keep reading the posts over and over and maybe what Janine is saying will sink in. Best wishes to you too--
-Jake

 

[jft]

I think it is a bit confusing too.

Somebodyelse. The vision thing you speak of sounds real similiar to mine and alot of others. Many of us have been the route of opthamologists and neurolists and whatever else becasue of this and I would imagine almost all of us turned up negative. I even a few times went in demanding glasses be prescribed but found each time that my vision was actually better than 20/20. The visual fog, the snow, the grainy features, the underwater look, the white outs under flourescents, the disappearance of text when reading, the blurryness of computer screens, the fatigue that comes from the experience, are all apparantly related to to this dr and/or anxiety state. This vision problem is huge for me. Anytime I am in a mall or a library etc. I am hightly affected by it, anytime I am near flourescents I get nailed. Very hard to read etc. I always thoughts it was becasue of the drugs I had done, but it turns out many who have never done drugs but have dr/dp experience this same phenomenon. If I remember right it maybe has something to do with our sensitive and traumatized brain chemistry being overloaded with stimuli, or at least our eyes performing as if we are in a panic state etc Please correct me if this is wrong.. All I know is that yes it is expasperating.
jft

 

[gaddis]

I find this initial post very annoying.
It seems this person that posted this has some type of agenda.
She is either very misinformed about panic disorder, or is deliberately distorting the facts.
Her attributing PD to adrenaline is completely wrong.
There is a huge body of scientific evidence which links panic attacks to norepinephrine (or noradrenaline), not adrenaline.
You could look this up in in any of the medical journals.
Further proof is that beta blockers, which block adrenaline, are ineffective in treating panic disorder.
You can ask any PD sufferer who has tried beta blockers or any research scientist about this.
Further, she tries to convince people (in a Rush Limbaugh, preachy manner- "friends, we know that...")that DP has no relation to panic disorder, when again the facts contradict this.
In the mountains of research on PD, some 30% of PD sufferers have DP and DR symptoms, along with the feeling that they're going insane or are going to lose themselves.
Anyone who looks up the DSM IV symptoms of PD can verify that.
On a more subjective level, I was treated for PD, and that treatment ended my panic attacks (which involved DP) and my anticipatory anxiety.
Later, even my DP went away, and this was all based on treatment for PD. Even today, if I have a slight DP relapse (which usually happens for various physiological reasons- i.e. lack of sleep), I also think DP is purely psychological,
but then it passes quickly, and I can trace it to a physiological cause.
Her discouragement of anyone with DP to relate it to PD is anti-therapeutic, and is extremely irresponsible, considering that many people here (Jake, for one) suffer from this sub-type of PD.
The fact that she started this post, and wasn't replying to to anyone's queries, shows that she is obviously trying to push something on the people here.
Her tone of assuming everybody already knows the supposed "truths" she's espousing, is very creepy, and suspicious in itself.
While it's true that DP can occur in a chronic state without panic attacks, that doesn't negate the relation of PD to DP.

 

[Guest]

Actually, I made this thread in response to several posts that were current in other threads on the board at the time. A few people were in discussions about why some techniques that help to quell Panic Attacks seem to have no effect on chronic DP states.

I do agree that DP can appear during panic attacks. But many others (myself included) have the experience of chronic DP states or episodic ones that do not involve current conscious anxiety at all, let alone massive panic. At those times, to treat the DP as one would treat a panic attack, will have no value. Even when DP appears along with panic, it is an entirely other type of symptom = in conjunction with, but not experienced the same as intense anxiety.

Also, just to clarify ? there are a myriad of different neurotransmitters involved it the onset of Panic Disorder, one of which is noradrenaline, another of which is adrenaline. Researchers investigate which of the various stress chemicals may play the largest role in those states, but there is little conclusive evidence. As such, I chose to use adrenaline as a culprit ? as we all know the sudden release of large amounts of it through the bloodstream will increase heart rate, and produce many of the same physical changes that a panic attack includes. I could certainly be wrong that it is a primary chemical in the overall development of PD. Apologies if I am.

I still stand by the overall content of my original post. Chronic or recurring DP episodes that occur in what appear to be isolated symptom states and seem to create terror silently inside the mind while giving off no exterior indications of the fear are very different from anxiety attacks that have prominent physical manifestations.

 

[Sojourner]

See http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/panic.html

 

[Imagine]

I agree with that Janine and also agree that its the hardest thing in the world to do.

I'm gonna simplify everything you just by using an example.

"Stop feeding your hamster and it will die!"

:lol:

 

[gaddis]

There is a big difference between panic and anxiety.
The typical PD sufferer experiences what is called anticipatory anxiety, which does involve adrenaline,
but a panic attack involves the noradrenergic and seritonergic systems of neurotransmitters.
I'd hardly accept anything from the APA as being very scientific.
The main point here is that what you call "anxiety attacks", with inward terror instead of physical symptoms, respond to the same biochemical treatment that the panic attacks with physical symptoms do.
I should know, I've had both types of these attacks and a simple adjustment in the dose of imipramine eliminated both.
Even when I had the chronic, 24/7 DP state, another Tricyclic AD, Elavil, finally pulled me out of that nightmare.
I've never used an SSRI alone, so I can't claim that they're as effective

 

[Luka]

I agree with everything said here, but, when I have really bad dp, that 'about to vanish/go mad' feeling, my heart is beating so fast, I have sweat pouring off me and shaking uncontrollably. I think it basically causes a panic attack in me. Just adds a nice extra touch to the whole experience

Yep, exactly my thoughts/experiences :!:

 

[Luka]

I gave it another thought...DP/DR and panic attacks are different kind of things, but they can come hand in hand with some people. Like you're experiencing DP/DR --> panic attack --> DP/DR gets worse --> panic attack gets worse etc. That's the thing with me anyway. I'm lucky to not experience DP/DR 24/7, but more like episodes, attacks if you like. This is also due to anti-depressants. Before I took my medicines (like 3 yrs ago) it was alot worse and I got panic attacks alot more frequent, up to a couple of times a day (I could not function properly). I guess there certainly are similarities between people who suffer from DP/DR, but there are also alot of differences too.