I have read this debate of believing and not believing in God, and it makes me puzzled, as nobody has told about the idea of the God she/he believes in. Is your God some kind of separate Creator being, who is behind all the creation, this universe? Or is that God simply the "master equation of the universe", some kind of Tao, which connects all? I can understand this Tao way of thinking and could say I believe in God, if God is like that. But Creator God, supreme being separate from this universe, I feel it is the curse of dualistic thought. If there is a beginning, there must be something before the beginning. Likewise - if there is an end, there must be something after it. And...if there is this universe - who has made it? I may ask you who thinks like that - who has made the God who made the universe? And again, the question of the beginning and end, dualism. Why need for some separate supreme being? I see this universe as some kind of "supreme being", it works in incomprehensible ways for human mind and has "created" even the human mind, who likes to think about the ultimate beginning and end. Why need for Creator in order to feel awe, when all you can see around you is incomprehensibly astonishing? Well, these are just my little thoughts. Anybody wanna post replies?
Do you believe in Creator/Tao?
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Oh, I meant the way how human mind seems to be working. It is impossible to comprehend infinity - one can say it exists, but cannot really comprehend it. I guess this is the reason why some people believe in Creator-like God - at least that seemed to be the case, when I discussed about this thing with some of my Christian friends during my long-gone high school times. They insisted that there had to be something beyond the universe, that universe cannot exist without Creator. I asked who created the Creator and they thought God has existed forever. This is the same dualism like with the question of beginning and end - and which is something I can't comprehend... Why make things difficult?Martinelv said:
For me there is one universe, or Tao, and so be it. There probably has been some Big Bang long ago, which made this universe like it is today. And OK - I must admit - I would like to know what has been before Big Bang, but unfortunately the question isn't relevant, as nowadays physics can't answer that... :wink:
Oh well, and what about those peculiar theories of multiple universes? Or other weird things, like parallel realities? I don't know anything about cosmology, quantum physics etc. so I leave those questions for experts...
Yes, you're right. As humans, we are unable to comprehend the idea that there was 'nothing before the beginning', but that doesn't mean that it's not true. Therefore we come to the only other possible conclusiont ath it must have been created by 'god', who always existed. I don't understand that reasoning and I never will. Ants don't 'comprehend' that there are humans walking around, but it's still true.
There are however 'ideas' in quantum theory that might go some way to explaining how the universe can have been created from 'nothing'. In a quantum vacuum it has been observed that particles spontaneously erupt from 'nothing', and quickly disappear. The idea is that before 'anything', time or whatever, the 'universe' was a quantum vacuum...rather a universe of 'possible' particles....suspended in some weird twilight state between existing and not existing. For some reason, one (or more) of these particles erupted from this 'nothingness' and caused the big bang. Following that logic, as bizarre as it is, there is no need for a god to kick it all off..because the universe came from nothing. Less than nothing in fact. Unless you still think you need a god to create nothing of course. And if that's the case, what was involved in creating nothing ? Surely the answer is - nothing ? So what's the need for god ? I find it much more bizarre to believe in an eternal god, because that raises far more questions that it does answers.
There is also the tantalising observation that the total amount of mass and energy in the universe seems to be zero - taking into consideration the balance of matter and anti-matter etc. Which would indicate that, again, the universe came from nothing. Galaxies, stars, planets and life itself, are just clumps of concentrated positive mass and energy in a huge swimming pool of negative mass and energy, a chaotic state. Smooth it all out, and what's left ? Nothing. It's still speculation of course...science doesn't presume to know the answers yet...unlike other certain, er, people....if you know what I mean.
From a metaphysical standpoint, you could say that the universe is here just because it is. No reason, no purpose, it's just here. If we weren't self-aware enough to question where we came from, do you think the universe would give a shit ? Or suddenly cease to exist ? Of course not. I doubt if the dinosaurs or my pet dog contemplate the nature of existance, but they were/still here. That's why it's becomming increasing evident that 'true' (I don't like using that word - because it implies 'correct') intelligence, such as ours, is self-defeating. We become capable of asking questions to which there are no answers. Perhaps this true intelligence is like a rapidly multiplying disease, a terrible blip in the evoluntionary proccess, which (and you just need to look at the history books to see how much carnage we have created in an incredibly short space of time) will eventually kill itself. Much like a cancer kills it's host. It's a horrid way of looking at things, but the analogy rings true. Again - the dinosaurs weren't self-aware, with all the agonises that it brings, and they existed for million and millions of years. However, we've only been around for a few seconds on the universal clock, and it's all going tits up already !! People protest - but what about love, art, music, sacrifice ! Yes, but by who's standards ? The answer - our own. We are doomed to be dominated by our genetic selfishness, and (unless we all come to some kind of collective enlightenment, which I seriously doubt) there's only one outcome. Let's just hope, for the sake of everything apart from us, that this happens before we can completely fuck up the planet or spread ourselves around the universe.
Luckily, like everyone else who hasn't killed themselves, I'm such a selfish bastard (human, all too human) that the universe can kiss my arse !! I'm gonna carry on living, and do the best not to fuck everything up on my way.
There are however 'ideas' in quantum theory that might go some way to explaining how the universe can have been created from 'nothing'. In a quantum vacuum it has been observed that particles spontaneously erupt from 'nothing', and quickly disappear. The idea is that before 'anything', time or whatever, the 'universe' was a quantum vacuum...rather a universe of 'possible' particles....suspended in some weird twilight state between existing and not existing. For some reason, one (or more) of these particles erupted from this 'nothingness' and caused the big bang. Following that logic, as bizarre as it is, there is no need for a god to kick it all off..because the universe came from nothing. Less than nothing in fact. Unless you still think you need a god to create nothing of course. And if that's the case, what was involved in creating nothing ? Surely the answer is - nothing ? So what's the need for god ? I find it much more bizarre to believe in an eternal god, because that raises far more questions that it does answers.
There is also the tantalising observation that the total amount of mass and energy in the universe seems to be zero - taking into consideration the balance of matter and anti-matter etc. Which would indicate that, again, the universe came from nothing. Galaxies, stars, planets and life itself, are just clumps of concentrated positive mass and energy in a huge swimming pool of negative mass and energy, a chaotic state. Smooth it all out, and what's left ? Nothing. It's still speculation of course...science doesn't presume to know the answers yet...unlike other certain, er, people....if you know what I mean.
From a metaphysical standpoint, you could say that the universe is here just because it is. No reason, no purpose, it's just here. If we weren't self-aware enough to question where we came from, do you think the universe would give a shit ? Or suddenly cease to exist ? Of course not. I doubt if the dinosaurs or my pet dog contemplate the nature of existance, but they were/still here. That's why it's becomming increasing evident that 'true' (I don't like using that word - because it implies 'correct') intelligence, such as ours, is self-defeating. We become capable of asking questions to which there are no answers. Perhaps this true intelligence is like a rapidly multiplying disease, a terrible blip in the evoluntionary proccess, which (and you just need to look at the history books to see how much carnage we have created in an incredibly short space of time) will eventually kill itself. Much like a cancer kills it's host. It's a horrid way of looking at things, but the analogy rings true. Again - the dinosaurs weren't self-aware, with all the agonises that it brings, and they existed for million and millions of years. However, we've only been around for a few seconds on the universal clock, and it's all going tits up already !! People protest - but what about love, art, music, sacrifice ! Yes, but by who's standards ? The answer - our own. We are doomed to be dominated by our genetic selfishness, and (unless we all come to some kind of collective enlightenment, which I seriously doubt) there's only one outcome. Let's just hope, for the sake of everything apart from us, that this happens before we can completely fuck up the planet or spread ourselves around the universe.
Luckily, like everyone else who hasn't killed themselves, I'm such a selfish bastard (human, all too human) that the universe can kiss my arse !! I'm gonna carry on living, and do the best not to fuck everything up on my way.
I like that thought you stated here. I have never understood those people, who need some ultimate reason apart from themselves for existence. Why need that "higher purpose", when you can go outside and smell a dandelion (or see how the snow is glittering during wintertime). That's reason enough for me.Martinelv said:
Absolutely. We should be gratefull that we are self-aware to appreciate the wonders around us. Look around you, not up to the 'heavens' that's what I say. The 'real' universe is far more exciting, bewildering and awe-inspiring than any drivel we can dream up, like astrology or faith. It's just a shame that we can't do that without screwing every thing else along the way. We can't help ourselves. People don't realise that we aren't at the 'top' of the evolutionary ladder at all, we're right at the bottom ! We're a terrible, terrible mistake. Don't you think that if the earth grew arms and hands then it wouldn't just sit back and admire us, it'd try and swat us off as quickly as possible. The occassional glimmers of hope, such as self-sacrifice for things other than ourselves, true awareness of what we are, are unfortunately enormously outhweighed by our selfishness. I'm not blaming anyone, we because we can't help ourselves! There is no alternative. And what really really cracks me up is that religion, the supposed saviour of us all, is the very thing that's driving the final nail in our coffin. If it wasn't so tragic it would be funny.
I blame benzo's myself.
I blame benzo's myself.
Ha...I love this thread...kept me smiling for ages.
I am in agreeance with most of what you have said Martin...I have always wondered why. as humans, we find it so difficult to comprehend that we just ARE...we exist and that's that. The concept of infinity is mind-boggling and we have been conditioned to believe that there is a beginning and an end to everything...we can't grasp the concept that outside of our tiny understanding of our insignificant mortal existance that there is no beginning or end to anything at all. I'm wondering though...do you truly believe that there was "nothing before the beginning"? It kind of contradicts the whole concept of infinity and well...even "nothing" is I guess "something".
I am very interested in quantum physics but I have only touched on the very basics as it really does just blow me away with it's complexity, and the fact that it creates even more questions than answers.
I hope you don't mistake this as rudeness, but I want to quote a couple of things you said as I think they are rather indicative our very "human" concept that we reign supreme.
IMHO :wink:
I am in agreeance with most of what you have said Martin...I have always wondered why. as humans, we find it so difficult to comprehend that we just ARE...we exist and that's that. The concept of infinity is mind-boggling and we have been conditioned to believe that there is a beginning and an end to everything...we can't grasp the concept that outside of our tiny understanding of our insignificant mortal existance that there is no beginning or end to anything at all. I'm wondering though...do you truly believe that there was "nothing before the beginning"? It kind of contradicts the whole concept of infinity and well...even "nothing" is I guess "something".
I am very interested in quantum physics but I have only touched on the very basics as it really does just blow me away with it's complexity, and the fact that it creates even more questions than answers.
I hope you don't mistake this as rudeness, but I want to quote a couple of things you said as I think they are rather indicative our very "human" concept that we reign supreme.
I have often watched ants in awe (ok...yep. maybe I've always thought a little left of centre). Have you ever wondered if in fact they do "comprehend" or question their existence??? We, as humans (I know I am guilty of this myself all the time), believe we know that we are the only creatures on earth that have any comprehension of our own existence but as science cannot locate that part of us we call our "consciousness" can we be certain that ants etc don't have an even higher level of understanding than we do?
Agreed...if all humans had a greater comprehension of existence or the "ulitimite reality" then we would not be destroying ourselves and the earth the way we do. If we could all tap into our "collective consciousness" (if there even is such a thing) then we would perhaps be able to lead much happier and more peaceful lives.
IMHO :wink:
Today a young man on acid realised that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration. We are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. There's no such thing as death, life is only a dream and we're the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather...
Oh, for pity's sake. "There is no God "has been going around for quite some time. It is definitely a belief that many well-meaning scientific intellectual types ascribe to but what if you are wrong? What if there is a Beginning and an End? He says He is the Great I AM He has existed forever. He is not just mere energy, although He made it and works through it. He is not a gnostic god of being in all things although He created all things. He is the Word. He is Eternal Life. He is Perfect Love. Seek and You shall find when you seek Him with your whole heart. He is waiting. With love, freesong
I respect your opinion freesong and admire your conviction in your beliefs...but where do your convictions come from??? How do you continue to have total faith in "Him" and not question if in fact you may be wrong?
Do you believe he loves us all unconditionally and if so then does it really matter if any of us are believers or not? If this is true, then he will take us all into his fold and forgive us all for anything we may do...if this is not true then does this indicate that he does not in fact love unconditionally and if that is so then does that not contradict the statement that he is Perfect Love?
I have far too many questions and find far too many contradictions in what I have read of the bible and been told by those who try to convince me "he" is real.
I have often wished that I could just believe and have faith that "He?" exists as life would be so much easier for me...but I know this will never be the case...unless "he" visits me personally and clears up all of the contradictions and concerns I have with "His" word that is spread by many of those with total blind faith...then I would have to reassess.
I have attended churches and even dated somone quite involved in religion, but could not find any consistency in anything I was being told.
Perhaps you are 100% correct...truth is, we will never truly know...there is no proof for me firsthand so I will continue to admit that I have absolutely no idea what the "real" truth actually is.
Do you believe he loves us all unconditionally and if so then does it really matter if any of us are believers or not? If this is true, then he will take us all into his fold and forgive us all for anything we may do...if this is not true then does this indicate that he does not in fact love unconditionally and if that is so then does that not contradict the statement that he is Perfect Love?
I have far too many questions and find far too many contradictions in what I have read of the bible and been told by those who try to convince me "he" is real.
I have often wished that I could just believe and have faith that "He?" exists as life would be so much easier for me...but I know this will never be the case...unless "he" visits me personally and clears up all of the contradictions and concerns I have with "His" word that is spread by many of those with total blind faith...then I would have to reassess.
I have attended churches and even dated somone quite involved in religion, but could not find any consistency in anything I was being told.
Perhaps you are 100% correct...truth is, we will never truly know...there is no proof for me firsthand so I will continue to admit that I have absolutely no idea what the "real" truth actually is.
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Actually if there is a God then we will find out after we are dead(according to "most" religions, unless you happen to be a Jehovah's witness then you just cease to exist) because we will end up either in heaven or HHeeLLLLL, (unless you are Buddhist or Taoist then you are reincarnated without any memory or knowledge of the past life so you still would not know for sure). If there is no God then we would never know because we would not be in existence anymore after death. Maybe if cryogenics ever works and someone frozen for 100 years is brought back to life(without their cells bursting when thawed) then they might be able to answer this question for the still living.
But my guess is even if someone comes back to life and has no memory of either heaven or hell it will not be enough to convince the true believers. And if they have vivid recollections of either place the non believers will not be persuaded either. So no one will ever win this argument.
But my guess is even if someone comes back to life and has no memory of either heaven or hell it will not be enough to convince the true believers. And if they have vivid recollections of either place the non believers will not be persuaded either. So no one will ever win this argument.
Yep...agreed. But I still like hearing others opinions on these topics and their reasons behind their beliefs.
I find it fascinating that people can claim to "know" that their truth is absolutely the only truth and not waver at all from their belief.
The only truth that I "know" is that noone can possibly know the "truth" with any certainty at all.
I find it fascinating that people can claim to "know" that their truth is absolutely the only truth and not waver at all from their belief.
The only truth that I "know" is that noone can possibly know the "truth" with any certainty at all.
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Creator no. Tao? Whats not to believe? Tao doesnt mean god, Tao means the way as in the way things are.
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