Discussion with God (Taken from bddcentral forum)

6910 Views 39 Replies 8 Participants Last post by CECIL, Feb 7, 2006

Sojourner

Discussion Starter · Jul 19, 2005

God: Hello You called me.
I, Me, Myself: Called you? No. who is this?

G: This is God I heard your prayers. So I thought I will chat with you

IMM: sure, I pray. Just makes me feel good. Actually,am busy now. In the
midst of something, you now.

G: What are you busy with? Ants are busy too.

IMM: Don't know. But i can't find free time. Life has become hectic. It's
rush hour all the time.

G: sure activity gets you busy, productivity gets you results. Activity
consumes time. Productivity frees it.

IMM: But I still can't figure it out. By the way, I was not expecting YOU
to buzz me on instant messaging chat

G: Well. I wanted to help you resolve your fight for time by giving you
some clarity. I wanted to teach you through the medium you are comfortable with.

IMM: Tell me. why has life become so complicated?

G: Stop analysing life. Just live it. Analysis is what makes it
complicated.

IMM: Why are we then constantly unhappy?

G: Your today is the tomorrow that you worried about yesterday. You are
worrying because the act if worrying has become a habit. That's why you are not
happy.

IMM: But how can we not worry when there is so much uncertainty

G: Uncertainty is inevitable, but worrying is optional.

IMM: but then, there is so much pain due to uncertainty.

G: Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.

IMM: If suffering is optional, why do good people always suffer?

G: Diamonds cannot be polished without friction. Gold cannot be purified
without fire. Good people go through trials. With that experience their life
becomes better,not bitter.

IMM: You mean to say such experience is useful?

G: Yes. Experience is a hard teacher, though. She gives the test first and
the lessons afterwards.

IMM: But still, why should we go through such tests? Why can't we be free
from problems?

G: problems are purposeful roadblocks offering beneficial lessons to
enhance Mental Strength. Inner strength comes from struggle and endurance, not
when you are free from problems.

IMM: Frankly in the midst of so many problems, we don't know where we are
heading.

G: If you look outside you will not know where you are heading. Look
inside. Looking outside, you scream. Looking inside, you awaken. Eyes
provide sight, Heart provides insight.

IMM: Sometimes not succeeding fast seems to hurt more than moving in the
right direction.

G:Success is relative, quantified by others .Satisfaction is absolute,
quantified by you. Knowing the road ahead is more satisfying than knowing you
rode ahead.

IMM: Some times I ask, who am I, why am I here? I don't know the answers.

G: Seek not to find who you are, but to determine who you want to be. Stop
looking for a purpose as to why you are here. create it. Life is not a proccess
of discovery but a process of creation.

IMM: How can I get the best out of life?

G: Face your past without regret and live your present with confidence.
Prepare for the future without fear.

IMM: sometimes my prayers are not answered.

G: There are no unanswered prayers. At times the answer is NO.

IMM: Thank you for this wonderful chat. I'll try to be less fearful.

G: Keep the faith and drop the fear. Life is a mystery to solve, not a
problem to resolve. Life is wonderful if you know how to live.

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Scattered

· #2 · Jul 19, 2005

Oversimplification. There are plenty of people who are living in conditions that are so extreme that there is little to nothing they can ever learn about or grow from. People who are starving or victims of violence or oppressive governments or are simply in situations so dire there is no hope do not learn and grow. They suffer intensely but die gradually. They become numb and former shells of who they were. They're body's and minds are ravaged until they are released from this pain by death.

I'm not a victim of such a situation. However if you're going to posit this idea then we have to apply to the most extreme and unpleasant situations we can think of in order to see if it stands in the face of reality. I think this idea about spiritual growth, learning, etc is bullshit. Its a nice way of saying no matter how much we suffer we will be better for it. There are a myriad of examples of good, strong, people who suffer and do not benefit at all. This is not a character flaw, this is just the way things are.

This all comes down to a simple choice. We can blind ourselves with simple ideas that explain complex and often depressing situations or we can look at things as they are. I don't blame people who wish to believe whatever they have to believe in order to live happily. Sometimes closing your eyes and putting your hands over your ears is the only way to stay sane.

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· #9 · Jul 21, 2005

We don't learn and grow because we are biological organisms that live, decay, and die where we return to the nothingness from which we came. A person undergoes extreme suffering for no reason whatsoever. There is no growth after death. There is nothing.

Who are you to say that there is a next life where we all return to and "learn" from this suffering? Where is your proof? The burden to prove this lies with you, I don't have to prove anything. I report things as I see it. The world is a great place, a horrible place, a meaningless place, a wonderous place, a torturous place. However there is no method to this madness other than the will to survive that exists within our DNA. There is us, human beings, advanced animals that came into existence through a set of chance circumstances.

People of advanced countries can afford self help books. They can afford meditative retreats, lavish churches, rich motivational speakers, evangelicals of all faiths. They can afford to experiment with meaning and explore abstract concepts. This doesn't change the fact that the vast majority live in poverty. The vast majority are starving, victims of violence and a lack of material goods. We can afford to be happy, they can't. We can afford to assign happy ideas around they're suffering.

Poor people are dying organisms. They are decaying. They're bodies and minds are atrophying. You can't learn when you can't eat. You can't learn when your body is being ravaged. When you're being whipped, beaten, and shot. Rich people can learn and be happy. Reality makes no such allowances to those who come face to face with it.

Please show me that I am wrong.

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· #11 · Jul 22, 2005

I don't like thinking this way. It doesn't give me any comfort or security. There just aren't any suitable answers based on anything other than vague speculation. I want for there to be a reason because I need for there to be a reason. But if I see no reason should I just accept a happy answer that makes no sense because it would be emotionally healthy for me?

I suppose its not worth it.

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· #15 · Jul 23, 2005

Fantastic post. I give up. God has revealed himself to you. Does he speak to you? Do you have conversations? Do you sit down at dinner together and talk about your day?

There is no way for you to make any pronouncements about the reality of God. I have no reason to hate religion or those who practice it. I have no reason to disrespect religion. But I also have no reason to believe in it and every reason to speak out against it when its used as an excuse to not face reality.

I suppose that because I'm not a devout member of any of the religions that are being spoken of, or have taken the time to delve into archaic tomes of information, I have no right to make any statements about religion. I believe that I've been acquainted with christianity to be given the right to offer my opinion of it. I was forced into a belief that I then gave myself to. I prayed to God. He didn't answer. I saw desperate people around me praying and going to church and doing whatever was necessary to instill in them even the smallest amount of hope that God was going to protect them or grant them happiness. However, I have never seen anything come of it. When God doesn't answer your prayers or allows great injustice to occur then it is because "he works in mysterious ways." When something good happens then it is immediately attributed to God's grace. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the role that religion plays in the lives of the desperate.

But believe what you will. Have hope, I'm sure you're belief in God whether he exists or not is healthy. It gives you a reason to wake up in the morning and the hope of being saved from illness by an all loving being. Great. I'll shutup because I just don't understand the deep spiritual truths inherent in religion that are beyond my comprehension.

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· #17 · Jul 25, 2005

I think you're viewpoints are completely valid. You're obviosuly extremely dedicated to your religion and theres no use in me trying to argue the point. Thanks for the in-depth reply anyway. I'll continue to lurk around and call your bullshit from time to time. Be seeing you.

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· #20 · Jul 26, 2005

Theres a place for religion. I simply don't feel the need to refute something that is purely based on ones subjective experience. Theres nothing for me to argue. I look at reality based on what I see and according to facts as we know them. Religion is something that is experienced by person that is outside the realm of science or objective fact. Its hard if not impossible for me to operate outside this confining box. I can only believe something that makes sense to me and something only makes sense to me if I have a reason to believe it, particularly evidence that would prove to me that it exists. There is no evidence for the existence of God. The simplest and best explanation, in my opinion, is that the world operates on purely physical principles. We come into this world, we live, and we die. You can look at this however you like. You can be extremely cynical about it, as I am, or you can be optimistic and say that because this is all there is then we have to make the most of it.

I can't be optimistic about our situation at this current point in time. I'm not saying that religion in and of itself is bullshit even if I think its false and serves as a psychological deterrent to depression. I'm simply saying that aspects of its teaching is bullshit. The only reason I'll even reply to posts about religion is because they often extend from their own domain and enter that of our greater reality. That is, they go beyond personal opinion and affect the way nonbelievers live or speak to the way everyone should live. They influence life in this country as well as its relationship towards other countries. Trying to explain injustice as anything other than injustice seems to be a simple palliative to reality. Instead of dealing with what occurs in the world we try to gloss it over with an explanation that appeals to our desires. We want to believe that all things occur for a reason, that all suffering leads to growth, and that and mystical place lies in wait for us after death. These ideas seem to me like simple inventions used to deal with complex problems.

I'm not going to engage in a debate about truth of religion. About whether or not it makes sense to believe or not to believe. I don't care. Specifically because these arguments are meaningless. There is no evidence for the existence of God. In order to justify God's existence we have to go through a long song and dance to justify a belief that, currently, has no basis in reality. We're trying to argue about things that occur in day to day life, versus the teachings of a book or conjecture from people who claim to have experienced God. I don't care about conjecture or about faith or about vague feelings or wishes or hopes. I care about what I see, and what I know based on evidence that presents itself to me. This may be a flawed way of looking at things but currently its the best way I can. If you're perception of reality is different, more optimistic, and contains less confusion then the more power to you. Otherwise, there really isn't anything else to say.

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· #23 · Jul 27, 2005

My subjective experience of reality would lead me towards ideas that I rather not believe. The idea that the world is purely physical. I honestly want to believe in a God, but my experience would lead me towards a totally different conclusion. The more I think about it the more I realize my desire for God comes out of a NEED for God, not because I know that god exists but because I need to believe in the face of a science that is increasingly offering explanations and alternatives to religion.

It's truely a painful time to live. A time when logical explanations and reason are beginning to take the place of old ideas and superstitions. Man once used god, religion, spirits, etc to make sense of a world that he did not and could not understand based on his level of technology and knowledge. The more we learn, the more these supersitions are shown to be false. There are no supernatural phenomena that lead to the sunrise or sunset, the change of seasons, violent weather, as well as the life cycle itself. These are purely physical phenomena. The old way of looking at things was fine for its time, but in the face of current knowledge its difficult to turn ones back on scientific fact. We can't prove that god does or does not exist but we don't have to. We have brains that allow us to experiment and learn about the world around us. And the more we learn about the physical workings of the universe the more religion seems to be what it is, a primitive way of explaining a world that did not make sense. I don't believe there is any room for religion when the justification for its existence, the ability to make order out of chaos, has quickly been superceded by science.

Back to the idea of subjective experience, I'm sorry but I have never experienced God regardless of how much I prayed or how sincere I was. I never saw any manifestion of God, or anything other than the physical world around me. If you have come to know God through subjective experience, then as I said, thats great. But that isn't proof of God's existence. Nor is the subjective experience of any prior mystic, saint, etc.

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· #29 · Jul 27, 2005

Regardless of what monkey dust said about faith, I did indeed say that it could be healthy. I think prayer can help in sickness and there have been some studies that have shown this. Once again I don't care about the ancillary health effects of prayer. This shows that positive thinking and hope can affect ones health. This is no way shows that a prayer is being answered by a god, gods, or force. To say that this is a ***** in the armor of atheism is ridiculous. We all know that positive thinking whether that take the form of prayer, positive self-talk, etc can at times help us.

Physical explanations make the most sense to me. I wasn't setting up a straw man when I was talking about the place that religion once had. I was simply saying that religion developed in order to give supernatural explanations to physical phenomena. That was its function, in a time where we lacked knowledge to explain how the world operated. Now we have science, we have a more accurate method of gaining knowledge and we are beginning to see that the world is based on purely physical phenomena where it was once thought to be based on religious or spiritual phenomena.

The only thing that the theist has is his or her subjective experience, or "indirect links", which are tenuous themselves, to the existence of God. I don't need to know about half-truths, maybe's, or conjecture. I rely on scientific fact and evidence. The cosmological argument may provide a reasoned justification for the existence of God, but does not move us any farther to showing us that God actually exists. If you want to say that the existence of God is something that cannot be seen by the scientific mind, then say so and at least we'll come to the conclusion that God is completely divorced from the physical world and has left no evidence to show us that he is or was ever here. He is in our minds, and as such is completely irrelevant to my experience of the world. I have alot of fantasies, notions, ideas that run through my head, but I would never dedicate my life to them.

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· #32 · Jul 27, 2005

What are you basing this on homeskooled, give me a link to the studies. I'm willing to bet that an extremely positive person, who is positive in the face of overwhelmingly negative circumstances, will be as healthy as the most devout theist. The mind affects the body, this is no big deal. Furthermore I doubt there is anyway that such a study can truly be done correctly. I'm sure those who pray are healthier than those who don't pray but how are we studying this? Are we saying that those who pray are healthier than depressed atheists or are healthier than average atheists or near manic motivational speakers?

There are plenty of depressed catholics, christians, muslims, jews, etc. There are plenty of depressed atheists, agnostics, etc. The only difference I can see is that regardless of faith or lack of faith, some people have a positive outlook on life and some don't. Those who have a more positive outlook on life are able to derive health benefits. I've seen no reason so far to believe that prayer, above all else, has a distinct benefit.

EDIT: I didn't properly address your supposition. I looked over the sfgate article. The article said,

those who received both MIT therapy and the "high-dose" prayer may have been slightly less likely to die in the following six months.

The key words here are both and less. Morbidity was decreased only when MIT and prayer were combined. Even when they were combined the morbidity rate was only "slightly less." The researchers went on to state the obvious, that given the nature of the study it was impossible to make any firm conclusions.

Once again, mere conjecture.

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