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A moderator is welcome to move this to .... anywhere, but it was so astonishing an article I'm posting it.

I have no clue what to make of this.
Um, we are all VERY unique. And this again brings up the controversy over diagnoses and the DSM.


FROM:
The New York Times
March 22, 2005
At War With Their Bodies, They Seek to Sever Limbs
By ROBIN MARANTZ HENIG


When the legless man drove up on his own to meet Dr. Michael
First for brunch in Brooklyn, it wasn't just to show Dr. First how
independent he could be despite his disability.
It was to show Dr. First that he had finally done it - had finally
managed to get both his legs amputated, even though they had been
perfectly healthy.

Dr. First, a professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, had
gotten to know this man through his investigations of a bizarre and
extremely rare psychiatric condition that he is calling body
integrity identity disorder, or B.I.I.D.


"This is so completely beyond the realm of normal behavior," he
said of the condition, which he estimated afflicts no more than a
few thousand people worldwide. "My first thought when I heard about
it was, Who would think this could go wrong? Who even thought there
was a function that could be broken?"


Dr. First is among a small group of psychologists and psychiatrists
who are trying to define the disorder, understand its origins and
decide whether to include it in the encyclopedic bible of
psychiatry, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, or D.S.M., as a
full-fledged disease. At the same time, the disorder is turning
up as a plot device or documentary subject in a handful of films,
plays and television shows.


The idea of having extreme elective surgery, even when it involves
mutilation or removal of healthy tissue, has met at least some
acceptance in cases like sex reassignment, or cosmetic surgery for
those who hate their noses or breasts even when those body parts
are objectively fine.

But an obsessive desire for a limb amputation - one that drives
people to cut off healthy arms and legs - tests the tolerance of
even the most open-minded.

Body integrity identity disorder has led people to injure
themselves with guns or chain saws in desperate efforts to force
surgical amputations. A few have sought out amputations abroad,
including one man who died of gangrene after an elective amputation
in a clinic in Tijuana, Mexico.


The disorder has been known by several names. In 1977, Dr. John
Money, an expert on sexuality at Johns Hopkins University, named it
apotemnophilia (literally, love of amputation). He considered it
a form of paraphilia - that is, a sexual deviation.

In 1997, Dr. Richard Bruno of Englewood Hospital in New Jersey
proposed the name factitious disability disorder, which he
grouped into three types: people who are sexually aroused by
amputees("devotees"), those who use wheelchairs and crutches to
make it seem as if they are amputees ("pretenders") and those who
want to get amputations themselves ("wannabes"). In Dr. Bruno's
taxonomy, those who manage to obtain amputations continue to be
known as wannabes.


In 2000, Dr. Gregg Furth, a New York child psychologist and one of
Dr. Money's co-authors on his 1977 paper, published a book about
the disorder, calling it amputee identity disorder. In addition
to his professional interest in the subject, Dr. Furth had a
personal one: from early childhood, he had wanted to have his right
leg amputated above the knee.


Dr. Furth wrote the book with Dr. Robert Smith, whom he met while
searching for a surgeon who would perform the elective amputation.
When Dr. Furth found him in Scotland, Dr. Smith had already done
two such operations, and he agreed, after consulting with two
psychiatrists, to operate on Dr. Furth. But in 2000 Dr. Smith's
hospital, the Falkirk Royal Infirmary in Glasgow, prohibited any
further procedures of this type. Dr. Furth never received his
amputation.

The newest name, body integrity identity disorder, was first
used by Dr. First of Columbia in the journal Psychological Medicine
in 2004. In that paper, he described the results of a telephone
survey of 52 people with the disorder: 9 of them had amputations
and the rest yearned for it. He chose the name to distinguish the
disorder from paraphilia, psychosis or body dysmorphic disorder
(the false belief that a part of your body is ugly or abnormal).

To Dr. First, the closest analogy was to gender identity
disorder.


"When the first sex reassignment was done in the 1950's, it
generated the same kind of horror" that voluntary amputation does
now, Dr. First said. "Surgeons asked themselves, 'How can I do this
thing to someone that's normal?' The dilemma of the surgeon being
asked to amputate a healthy limb is similar."

Still, the analogy is imperfect. "It's one thing to say someone
wants to go from male to female; they're both normal states," Dr.
First said. "To want to go from a four-limbed person to an amputee
feels more problematic. That idea doesn't compute to regular
people."


Dr. David Spiegel of Stanford said he believed that body integrity
identity disorder sounded closer to either body dysmorphic
disorder or anorexia nervosa, though he added that he had not seen
any patients with the integrity disorder. The connection to
anorexia, he said, is that people with B.I.I.D. "have a clearly
mistaken belief about their bodies."


"It reminds me a little of anorexia nervosa," Dr. Spiegel added,
"where people think they're fat when it's obvious they're not."

No one knows for sure what causes the integrity disorder or how it
can be treated. Dr. J. Mike Bensler and Dr. Douglas S. Paauw of the
University of Washington Medical Center in Seattle, writing in the
Southern Medical Journal in 2003, said it was probably both sexual
and emotional in nature. The condition is at its heart an "erotic
fantasy," they wrote, with two components: "undergoing amputation
of a limb, and subsequently overachieving despite a handicap."

According to Dr. First, people with body integrity identity
disorder are quite specific about how many limbs they want
amputated, and where. The most common is the left leg above the
knee; the least common is a finger or toe. "Some people actually
know the exact spot where they want the amputation," said Dr.
First. "Not just above the knee, but four inches above the
knee."

:shock:

Anything short of that specific site can be insufficient. One man
from Dr. First's sample had a lifelong fixation on being a double
leg amputee. After a shotgun accident, he lost his left arm.
Amazingly, this did nothing to diminish the intensity of the man's
desire to have his legs amputated.


In Dr. First's study, just over half of his subjects had
encountered amputees at a young age, and from that time on, they
were fixated on getting their limbs removed.
"It wasn't so much that I wanted to be an amputee as much as I just
felt like I was not supposed to have my legs," said Dr. First's
brunch companion in a phone interview, which he granted on the
condition of anonymity. The man also was a subject in Dr. First's
study.

"From the earliest days I can remember, as young as 3 or 4 years of
age, I enjoyed playing around using croquet sticks as crutches," he
said. "I enjoyed thinking about what it would be like to be missing
a leg. When we were playing cowboys and Indians, I seemed to be the
person who always got wounded in the leg."

This man said his amputations cured his disorder. But Dr. Spiegel
said most such operations would probably not do away with the
underlying problem. "I don't think the answer is fitting in with
the obsession or delusion," he said.


Dr. Spiegel expressed more faith in psychotherapy, especially
something called response prevention and thought-stopping. "It
involves training the patient to try and block the thought when it
comes up," he said, "and to keep him from trying to act on it."
None of the subjects in Dr. First's study reported being helped by
therapy or medication, but Dr. First said that might be because
they had not received "psychotherapy tailored to this disorder" or
"high sustained doses" of medications used to treat related
conditions like obsessive-compulsive disorder.


He said more research was needed into treatment options and into
whether amputation was an acceptable treatment "as a last resort."
People who have lost limbs to accidents or disease are often
horrified when they learn about healthy people who seek
amputations.

"It's very difficult for people who have been through what they
consider to be a devastating life experience to understand why
anybody would want to mutilate himself in this way," said Paddy
Rossbach, president of the Amputation Coalition of America, an
advocacy and support group. "Especially when so many people are
having tremendous problems with prosthetic fittings, or access to
prostheses, and are living with pain every day of their lives."

Mrs. Rossbach, who has been missing a leg since childhood, said
that some amputees are angry at people with body integrity identity
disorder because they believe that the condition "is really
minimizing what they themselves have been through."

According to Dr. First, people with the disorder are basically
normal. "They have families," he said. "They hold all kinds of
jobs, doctors and lawyers and professors. They're not screwed-up
people apart from this. You could spend an evening with them and
never have the slightest clue."

But people with serious mental illnesses, even psychoses, often
look normal on the surface, Dr. Spiegel said. Still, the surface
can mask some profound problems. "It's often the case that people
with this kind of delusion would pass a mental status screen," he
said. "They can do abstract thinking, they're not disoriented, they
look pretty good to the outside world as long as you don't trip
over their delusion."


Yet many with the disorder would go to extreme measures to get rid
of the limb they consider extraneous.

In May 1998, the urge drove one man to a California surgeon who had
lost his license more than 20 years earlier for several botched
attempts at sex reassignment surgery. At a clinic in Tijuana, the
surgeon, John Ronald Brown, 77, cut off the left leg of Philip
Bondy, 79, of New York, who had paid him $10,000. Then Mr. Brown
sent Mr. Bondy to a motel in a run-down section of San Diego to
recover on his own.

Two days later, Mr. Bondy was dead of gangrene, and Mr. Brown was
charged with second-degree murder. During the trial, newspaper
reports said that Mr. Bondy had sought the operation to satisfy a
"sexual craving." Mr. Brown was found guilty in October 1999 and
sentenced to 15 years to life in prison.


Mr. Bondy was not alone in his desperation. Among the body
integrity identity disorder sufferers in the documentary "Whole" by
Melody Gilbert, broadcast on the Sundance Channel in May 2003, is a
Florida man who shot his own leg so it would be amputated in the
emergency room, and a man from Liverpool, England, who packed his
leg in dry ice for the same reason. The man who froze his leg
referred to the resulting amputation as "body correction surgery."

The condition is slowly making its way into popular culture.
At the New York International Fringe Festival last summer, an award
for best overall production went to "Armless," a play about a
middle-aged suburbanite with the disorder. The playwright, Kyle
Jarrow, said his goal was to explore "the line between gross and
spooky and funny and poignant."

In November, an episode of "CSI: New York" featured a man with the
disorder who bled to death after he tried to saw off his leg. And
last month, a screening was held in the East Village of
"Pretender's Dance," a short film by Tom Keefe about a young
choreographer and her boyfriend who wanted amputation.

Dr. Smith, the Scottish surgeon who removed the legs of two men
before his hospital forced him to stop, is trying to get the
disorder formally recognized so that the amputations can be covered
by the National Health Service.

"The Hippocratic oath says first do your patients no harm," he said
in the film "Whole." But maybe the real harm, he said, is to refuse
to treat such a patient, "leaving him in a state of permanent
mental torment," when all it would take for him "to live a
satisfied and happy life" would be to amputate.

Dr. Smith's American co-author, Dr. Furth, is trying to get body
integrity identity disorder added to the D.S.M., the textbook
compiled by the American Psychiatric Association that lists all
mental disorders considered distinct, pathological and worthy of
reimbursement by health insurance companies.

Dr. First of Columbia is on the board of editors for the next
edition of the textbook. Even though he is one of the few
psychiatrists who studies the disorder, he still has not decided
whether it should be included. Putting the disorder into the manual
could generate research interest into its origin and possible
treatment, he said.

But, he added, "the D.S.M. already is a very big book."
"And as far as clinical utility," Dr. First said, "the thicker it
gets, the less useful it gets."

And while the disorder is genuine, he said, he has to recognize
that it may be too rare for mention in a book that is already
buckling under the weight of its inclusiveness.


Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Dreamer is speechless. Any thoughts on this one? :shock:
 
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Well, Janine is almost speechless as well....if it shut BOTH of us into deadly silence, that's pretty damned impressive.

strangest thing I've ever read. EVER.

I have to mull this one over. My first (psychoanalytic) thought of course, is that it might unconsciously be some kind of perverse castration delusion....but hell, I don't know, lol.

The one thing that occurred to me is that this is NOT something that I've ever read of before - not from the literature, not from centuries gone by. I wonder if in ANY way it is connected to the times we live in - we read about limbs being severed (or heads!), we see it in movies, we play it in video games. Long ago, this hyper-stimulating visual trauma wasn't in front of our faces..

I don't know.
Yes...you left me nearly speechless! :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Dear Janine, LOL, I really am dumbfounded here,
I wonder as well, what do we know about the history of this phenomenon. But it says

"This is so completely beyond the realm of normal behavior," he
said of the condition, which he estimated afflicts no more than a
few thousand people worldwide. "My first thought when I heard about
it was, Who would think this could go wrong? Who even thought there
was a function that could be broken?"
A few thousand people worldwide? WORLDWIDE. It is astounding this has been written up.

If it has a history, which I imagine it does, I think?, it would be very difficult to ferret it out. I would think in centuries past, anyone without a surgeon who did this to him/herself would die. It would be a sort of suicide?

OMG :shock:
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
According to Dr. First, people with body integrity identity
disorder are quite specific about how many limbs they want
amputated, and where. The most common is the left leg above the
knee; the least common is a finger or toe. "Some people actually
know the exact spot where they want the amputation," said Dr.
First. "Not just above the knee, but four inches above the
knee."
OK, I'm done, but that is even more........ the most common is the LEFT LEG?

Well, yes, :shock: LOLOLOLOL
 
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Well...duh! lol...yes, you made an excellent point - in centuries gone by, of course the person would die/bleed to death. Didn't think of that.

The only thing I've read about this is from a novel, about 7 yrs. ago, I think. Author is Wally Lamb and the book is "This Much I Know Is True" a story about one normal man and his schizophrenic brother - their lives together, etc. and it is supposedly based on Lamb's real life and real relationship with a mentally ill sibling. The first chapter ends with the psychotic brother chopping off his own hand (intentionally).

Is this thread making all the dp people feel good and comfy? lol...man, this is just fascinating. I may have to inquire to my analyst buddies if they're familiar with this at all.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Is this thread making all the dp people feel good and comfy? lol...man, this is just fascinating. I may have to inquire to my analyst buddies if they're familiar with this at all.
HOWLING.

But seriously intersted in what the analysts have to say. I'm.... well, .... OMG!

I can only say :shock:
Please, I'm willing to hear ANY theory that comes within 500 miles of explaining this at all!

OK, it is time to watch the telly, but it could be on C.S.I., ROARING!
 

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Sweet holy jesus, whatever next ! What do you do with your spare time Dreamer ? :shock:

To be honest, if I were to remove part of my body, I think I'd go for my big toe. Deep fry it and - hey presto, KFC chicken drumstick. Slobber, drool.
 
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I read an article written by a woman afflicted with this disorder. For her it was an aesthetic motivation. If you ever read up on heavy body modification (BME's website is a good 'un), you'll see that amputations (usually of fingers) are used as a way to enhance and change the appearance of the body. I remember viewing a picture of man's tattooed arm while looking for my own inking ideas and seeing that his fingers went down in uniformly largest to smallest, rather than the usual uneven pattern. He had amputated the tips of some to achieve this.

I doubt sensationalizing this does any good. Has it occurred to you that if some message board read an article about our illness, they would find it just as unfathomable as you find this one?

"How can you leave your body? WTF?OMGLOL"
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Triste said:
I read an article written by a woman afflicted with this disorder. For her it was an aesthetic motivation. If you ever read up on heavy body modification (BME's website is a good 'un), you'll see that amputations (usually of fingers) are used as a way to enhance and change the appearance of the body. I remember viewing a picture of man's tattooed arm while looking for my own inking ideas and seeing that his fingers went down in uniformly largest to smallest, rather than the usual uneven pattern. He had amputated the tips of some to achieve this.

I doubt sensationalizing this does any good. Has it occurred to you that if some message board read an article about our illness, they would find it just as unfathomable as you find this one?

"How can you leave your body? WTF?OMGLOL"
Triste,
I aplogize if it seems I am laughing at such people, I'm not. And I don't mean to sensationalize it. I am fascinated by the brain. I want to understand why people do what they do, feel how they feel. This was in The New York Times! Are they sensationalizing it by reporting about such a rare thing that is actually being studied?

Understanding the very unusual helps us understand the everyday pathological. That is the POV of many scientists, doctors, researches, etc. (Particularly my favorites, Oliver Sacks, and V.S. Ramachandran.)

To me, I see this as more food for understanding the incredible complexity of the brain.

I suppose I shouldn't have laughed or put the shocked look. I got carried away.

Hey, I'm a person her who hates the word "schizo" that is used liberally here on the board. If I could, I'd give everyone who uses the word "schizo", a talking-to! I find it an insulting slang word that implies schizophrenics are not human beings.

I am fascinated by this. I am not making fun of it. I am a research junkie as many on the board know.

I want to understand this as much as I want to understand DP/DR.

I am not making light of this.

I've had DP/DR essentially my whole life -- age 46. Perhaps a bit jaded, but no less interested in the workings of the mind after all these years.

Apologies.
Dreamer
Edit: x1
 

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Oh, dear...trust me to be the odd one out here! I have to say that I honestly didn't feel in the slightest bit shocked while I read this, and I did read it thoroughly. I was more surprised to read that Janine and Dreamer were almost speechless immediately after reading it! I found it extremely easy to imagine what their thoughts are and I can clearly understand why these people would want to make such drastic actions.

I'll quickly mention that I'm open minded enough to accept the possibility that I'm being delusive, should this be what any of you are wondering? I can see that I must sound like it. However, time will quickly tell...

Dreamer, if you would like me to try and explain, then I'll try my best. I know it'll be quite a struggle for me to put my comprehension of this disorder into words - especially as my vocabulary is limited - but bear with me and I should hopefully get there in the end.
 
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I was under the impression that part of what they may be feeling is alienation to their bodies similar to what some of us may feel. I don't think I am alone in having not recognizing parts of my body, causing harm to myself and, embarrassing to admit, suffering desires for castration when in an episode of DP/DR.

Well, perhaps I am alone in the last one. But I think my point is proven.
 

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Dear Dreamer,
I remember reading about this phenomenon about two years ago. It strikes me that if you scanned the brains of one of these patients, you might find some odd wiring in the parietal lobe. The body map is here, and often stroke patients with damage to one of the sides end up denying that the other half of their body even exists. They comb half of their heads and dress only their right or left halves! Children who have had overactivity in their parietal lobe have been shown to be very, very sensitive to touch or noise (as it also processes some hearing). If the wiring which let you feel your right leg had developed poorly, was damaged because of forceps at childbirth, etc...I dont think it would ever feel right to you. It might feel misplaced. It struck me that this disease is practically the opposite of phantom limb pain. Instead of losing a limb and having your brain refusing to beleive it is gone, you have a person who has a limb which his body refuses to tell him belongs there. You might be able to use a phantom limb treatment in reverse for treatment, or what immediatley came to my mind, biofeedback. I also wouldnt put it past these patients having OCD. I know many people with it have had obsessive thoughts about hurting others, and more to the point of this post, hurting themselves in some grotesque way. Supposedly, a person with these symptoms would have overactivity in their cingulate gyrus. Maybe a mild SSRI with biofeedback would be a valid treatment option? Anyways, its very interesting, and yes, exceedingly rare. I think that OCD can run the whole gamut of ruminations. There was a case of a man in Japan some years ago who had an obsession with how it would taste to eat someone. He was actually jailed for trying to pull it off ( with the other person's permission) but was let out of the asylum he was in about two years ago. He was diagnosed with OCD bordering on psychosis, and him living in Japan and all, he is quite a celebrity. They've made a joke of the whole thing, which is kind of sick and pretty scary. He is a food critic for a magazine, and they do photo shoots of him with young pretty japanese women, holding their outstretched legs with his mouth open....Sigh.....Anybody can be a celebrity nowadays. Just look at Paris Hilton. Okay, hope this helped.

Peace
Homeskooled
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Dear Homeskooled,
This is why I was :shock: over this particular disorder as it seemed in some way to apply to the distorition in perception of Self. Maybe a little tad more information to get a grasp on what we're fighting.

What struck me was exacty the bit about the most common complaint being that of the left leg -- how in the world, would only a few thousand people all over the world statistically have this problem which not only involved a desire to amputate a limb, but the left limb, and in a precise location.

Yes, I thought of "Phantoms in the Brain" and the studies of phantom limbs. Fascinating that this could be something like "backwards phantom limb pain." I was always struck by reading that some people born without limbs can experience phantom limb pain. It's stuff like that, and this incredible story that lead me back to incredible subtleties in the structure of "Self" as portrayed in the brain.

It's like the brain creates the image of a glove, that's us, but sometimes we don't "fill out the glove" -- our hand/Self feels smaller. At other times, we sense the thumb of the glove is missing when it is there, sometimes perhaps in this amputation disorder, yes, the individuals feels they have "one thumb too many" and it "doesn't feel right."

I really have no clue, but your explanation about phantom limbs in particular sounds right to me.

I can only say, the brain is absolutely, incredibly fascinating. If I have the brains 8) sometimes I wish I could be a neurologist.

Thanks,
I could go on, but am tired.
D
 

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If i wasn't such a basketcase, i would think that would be one of the strangest things i ever heard about. Although, Triste is right. Our disorder must sound pretty loopy to some people too.

In any case, this seems to fall into the same arena as the whole pozz sensation that was sweeping the nation a few years ago. This being a person who wants to be infected with the AIDS virus.

I'm just imagining explaining to my family that i'd like to have my limbs amputated. Man, that is just bizzarro. (And yes, i'm perfectly comfortable with everyone else thinking my problems are bizzarro as well. God knows i do.)

s.
 
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Politically correct or not, I suggest for those of you are so afraid to tell your family members about your dp, etc....try telling them you have for a long time now been fighting powerful urges to sever one of your own limbs, and you feel your resistance is weakening. When they're calm enough to hear words again, tell them actually that's not true. But you do have a strange little symptom called depersonalization. They will be happy to hear all about it. grin

One of my analyst friends had only this to suggest: there is some similarity in the mindset between this disorder and any of the self-mutilating obsessions, such as the overwhelming compulsions to pull out one's hair or scratch relentlessly until scabs form on the scalp, etc....there is no itching, or any physical stimulus - the person is attacking their own body with a kind of compulsion - they feel they "HAVE TO" to do (similar to OCD compulsions of rituals, counting, etc. except in these cases the drives all center on body).

The person becomes convinced that they will feel tension relief ONLY once the body part is sufficiently attacked....they are chasing some unattainable state - as if ONLY when I've DONE THIS will I feel finally free. Oddly enough, some transexuals fall into this category - not all, but some. The urge is really not based on a desire or need to be the other sex/gender, but an obsession that the removal of an organ (or limb) will CHANGE them intrinsically, as if they need to "remove" the real pain, the real tension producer. Sadly, it's of course an illusion, so the transexual may feel NO better afterwards and often commit suicide.

Fascinating thread, though. I truly thought I was hard to shock, but this one tossed me, lol...
 

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my shrink had a particular professional interest in the apotemophiles. "its an identity thing" he said. i.e. a pictured state in the mind that is "right" and "fits".

the brain can associate "good" and "bad" with anything given enough pressure through obsessing, one just needs to look at anorexia, or even the oddball that ocassionly turns up here looking for dp.

i am _certain_ i could be an apotemophile if i allowed myself to be and fed and grew the mindset. but that can of worms is NOT one i want to open.

as a post-op transsexual, i can definitely relate. this is how i believe my TSism formed, perhaps starting with idle curiousity about which side of the fence i belonged socially and physically, eventually snowballing into a unshiftable integral part of my identity. i can see the limb removal people developing along exactly the same path (with the obvious difference of it being purely physical for them).

by the way, the high suicide rates amongst post-op transsexuals, is due i believe to the depression that seems utterly rife in this population. virtually no-one expects surgery to change their life and fix their problems, but the fight to get and pay for it, does provide something to live for in the meantime. after surgery this focus is gone, the distraction is gone, leaving the residual depression to do its nasty work with the rest of life's 'little' problems.

my TS roommate attempted suicide 3 weeks after her surgery, classic major depression, complete with suicide note riddled with depressive cognition. i spoke to her afterward about it, and she confirmed that she was never under the illusion that the surgery would fix her depression.

it didn't fix my depression either, but there _is_ a huge sense of mental relief remaining that what had to be achieved was achieved and can never be taken away for me. being able to see myself in a mirror and not be utterly disgusted anymore is an incredible feeling.

for this reason i am an enthusiastic supporter of surgery for apotemophiles, provided that they have to fight reasonably hard to get it (in order to cement the "this is what i always wanted" mindset).
 
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