[Guest]

Hi,

I am interested in finding out if anyone has had experience or knowledge of the relationship between DP and meditative experiences. I had a DP in July '03 sequel to a manic bi-polar episode and during my initial time at the hospital (emergency room) I had a very intense DP experience.

I have had similiar experiences during meditation (though not to the same degree of intensity as my hospital experience). I am interested in pursuing meditation and am wondering if DP and so-called enlightenment (or "satori") are intimately related or not.

This is a hard question, I know, but I would appreciate any input or advice anyone can offer. I told my therapist I should probably be looking for some sort of "guide" or mentor if I decide to pursue this experience.

Thank you very much,

Joseph S.

 

[CECIL]

There are some (i.e. From eastern schools of thought) that equate the DP experience with ego-death, which is the ultimate goal of many eastern religions and meditative processes.

I imagine if the two are at least similar then it's a good idea to have a lot of practice and training under your belt to be able to handle it, rather than seeing it as a mental illness.

I think it's safe to say that a DP episode is a spiritual crisis if you are inclined to see it that way, and my understanding is that similar spiritual crises can occur as a result of meditation if you don't have the proper training and practice.

EDIT:

I should probably add that I've also had experiences in meditation that are somewhat similar to the feeling of DP - feelings of expanding outside the self in a limitless universe and of losing all connection with the physical body in the here and now. When meditating it's not at all anxiety provoking, though.

 

[Guest]

I'm looking at having dp as the shortcut to enlightenment. We're faced with something that takes so long for so many to achieve...a pure state of mind, but we don't know how to handle it.

Sort of like ripping the band-aid off quickly instead of that long painful scab tearing pussy mess you get without dp.

Bla bla blessing in disguise. I don't feel like bolstering my claim any further because i'm tired and/or too stupid.

 

[eldoofus]

DP isn't a shortcut to enlightenment - DP is ego death, or the inability to connect with your ego or sense of self. (or the 'I'm alive, free and spontaneous' parts of the ego).

Enlightenment is ego irrelevance - meaning that the ego doesn't get in the way of being happy/peaceful, or a feeling of 'being at one with the universe'.

I've been messing around with Holosync type binaural sounds for about a year now (~1000 hours) and have had many Enlightenment type experiences. And the crazy thing is that I'm gradually getting less 'DPed' in the process.

(as the DP is reduces the 'Enlightenment experiences' are becoming more profound, so I gather DP and Enlightenment are at opposite ends of the Feelgood spectrum).

My symptoms have also improved remarkably over this period - my vision has gone from being 2d and fuzzy to being overwhelming 3d and sharp (still a little 'irlen sydrome' distorted, but freakishly sharp compared to what it was). It's only through this kind of thing that I've realize that I've been living with fuzzy 2d DR as long as I can remember.

Btw, if you ever try this type of thing get some instructions because this is some *heavy* shit. I can only speak from my own experience but what I can say is that binaural sounds have completely changed my view on how the mind works.

I would also advise against traditional meditation as you could end up making yourself a lot worse. (ie. your mind is probably isn't in the 'right' state to meditate correctly).

Drop me a PM if you'd like some info. You can do all this stuff at home with your PC for free.

 

[[rula]]

IMHO, DP and enlightenment HAVE to be the complete opposite states of mind. Even if we just stumbled upon enlightenment by mistake/shortcut or whatever, and we're not prepared for it, shouldn't some aspects of it feel the least bit good/desirable??

ego loss vs ego irrelavance is just one side of it. how about the total loss of joy and peace, feelings of detachement/estrangement as opposed to oneness with the universe? the meditation induced trance state that Cecil described feels awesome. feels nothing like my DP.

-rula

 

[eldoofus]

ego loss vs ego irrelevance is just one side of it. how about the total loss of joy and peace, feelings of detachment/estrangement as opposed to oneness with the universe?
-rula

Yes I think you're absolutely right, but I think that's the core of it.

I mean, who seriously would strive for an extreme DP state? -you'd have to be a F-n idiot! (IMHO)

I just thought of a something potential 'traditional' meditators should check out:

http://home.mn.rr.com/tmyogadangers/

 

[Homeskooled]

Wow....thats some really weird, twisted stuff. The story from the man who has been hospitalized 26 times, was into meditation, and thought he was levitating, as well as his fiery hallucinations, sounds ALOT like temporal lobe epilepsy. The idea of an "awakening " of a Kundalini sounds kind of ridiculous to me- I guess I think that people who are already off kilter psychologically are more likely to buy into it. I do find it odd that one of the symptoms for it were bodily movements which do not occur under one's own volition. If that IS spiritual, it sounds alot like a possession to me. I'm Catholic, and each diocese has to have at least one appointed exorcist. I know the one here in Pittsburgh, and before anything is performed, he has to have the person taken to a panel of medical doctor's and psychiatrists. In any event, movements like that which are not related to a muscular or nervous system condition are thought to point in the direction of other-worldly possessions. I guess I dont see it as worth buying into, and if there is any spiritual merit, I cant see it being of the good kind. As for the idea of DP being a state of enlightenment, in a way, it is. I see DP as misfirings of neurons - either too little or too much - in the temporal lobes. Many, many, sufferers of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy are considered geniuses. A Japanese historian/philosopher in the 16th century wrote over 1,400 manuscripts because of the hypergraphia his TLE caused. Dostovesky (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) declared that his seizures were like "light permeating his being" and that he experienced joys which "people without epilepsy could never fathom". His best writing was done after his seizures. Van Gogh's best paintings were also after his seizures. There is evidence that Picasso had this as well. There was just recently, a case of an engineer in Chile with TLE. He had the ability to take a "virtual walk" through each of his drawings, and could reproduce a building with exacting detail from any angle. And each of these people tended to have a fascination with the spiritual. Researchers recently found that the "Aha!" factor in the though process - inspiration - orginated in the temporal lobes. From my standpoint, a biological one, these misfirings just need to be controlled for a patient to feel happy with themselves, while still feeling the joys of the gifts which their unique brains give them, whether this is a gift of deep philosophical thought, artistic talent, musical talent, or a the ability to write well and thoroughly.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[[rula]]

Wow....thats some really weird, twisted stuff. The story from the man who has been hospitalized 26 times, was into meditation, and thought he was levitating, as well as his fiery hallucinations, sounds ALOT like temporal lobe epilepsy.

actually the 3rd eye Chakra that kundalini travels through is exactly where the temporal lobe is. lots of meditation/Reiki techniques invlove concentration of energy on exactly that area as a form of healing. I know an ex-DP'ed person who was healed by a Reiki practitioner exactly like that, no meds ever taken. problems come up when inexperienced ppl attempt things they don't understand, under no supervision.

The idea of an "awakening " of a Kundalini sounds kind of ridiculous to me- I guess I think that people who are atlready off kilter psychologically are more likely to buy into it.

the idea of a possession sounds ridiculous to me too. odds are it's probably the same phenomena being interpreted in different ways by different religions. i have however known people who claim to control their kundalini, achieving positive results.

Picasso and Van Gogh both were chronic users of Absinth, which has been rumored to cause hallucination and epileptic seizures, and rumored to be the reason why Van Gogh cut off his own ear. artists in europe still drink it to be inspired, to kick off their creative juices. i'm not sure what came first, epilepsy leading to creativity, or absinth leading to epilepsy. i'll have to reasearch this one a bit more. peas, rula

 

[Beth]

Hey Jstewart,

For me there's a very strong link between dp/dr and meditation (i've explained how i got it in past posts that you can look up if you're interested).

I think that drugs/meditation/dp/religion all revolve around a fundamental experience that you can approach from lots of different angles. And the way I see it (although this is only speculation) is that the difference between dp/dr and the states resulting from meditation is exactly the same as the difference between a good trip on shrooms and a bad one. I think it's the subjective interpretation of the feelings involved. With meditation you are in control, you have to surrender control at a certain point, but even that is a choice. With dp/dr it's like your mind is hoisting you up to places that you never expressed any kind of an interest in, the lack of control makes you fight it, and that turns all the feelings bad. The best I've ever felt and the worst I've ever felt were exactly the same feeling of infinity, loss of ego, timelessness and all that. Exactly the same feeling, but one was heaven and the other was hell.

I'm just beginning to find some kind of equilibrium in my thoughts between seeing this state as a disorder and seeing it as enlightenment. I think it's actually meaningless to think of it as either. It's a really weird state, that can interfere with your life and make it not worth living, or can reinterpret your life and make it really meaningful. Either way it's all about feelings. I'm jealous of people who can take a drug, have an insight, come down off it. Since that's something I can't do I think I'm going to focus for now on believing in the real world, then if I ever feel secure enough there I'll do some more light exploration of meditation snd the like.

If it's something you want to talk about more, PM me, I'm very interested to hear other opinions and experiences on the subject.

Homeskooled - kundalini awakening is a physical description of a real experience. it may use a strange sounding frame work, but concepts like 'chakras' all have as real a use as any other word. possession is about the bull shitt-iest thing mankinds ever come up with.

 

[eldoofus]

I couldn?t even compare the positive enlightenment experiences I?ve had with the utterly disgusting and terrifying feelings of DP/DR/confusion I?ve also had to endure.

My own enlightenment-type experiences have been entirely and profoundly positive and not open for interpretation. ?Complete positivity? is how I would describe it. During an enlightenment episode I am unable to ask myself whether the experience is ?good? or ?bad? because negativity just isn?t present, or can?t be present. The feeling is higher than high. Kind of like? ?The world has a blanket peacefulness to it, everything is so bright and clear, I?m feeling completely positive, nothing really matters -and I?m on a really tweaked kind of high?. Sensory-wise, my awareness during these episodes is ON.

All this has happened as a direct consequence of drilling myself with binaural sounds - it still all seems so strange because these feelings are not something that I though I was capable of experiencing.

Btw, I ?ve never really had anything very strange happen while meditating, it?s always afterwards.

 

[Homeskooled]

Dear Rula,
Van Gogh's epileptic fits began in childhood, and were later followed up at a convalescent home in his 20's. This was before his heavy absinthe days. As for possession, to be honest, I think its almost as ridiculous as awakening one's kundalini- but only almost. The idea of submitting an article of faith - such as an awakened kundalini or a supposedly possessed person- for objective scientific and medical scrutiny, makes me more inclined to believe that either one is NOT a psychologically disturbed person or one with a medical disease. As far as I can tell, however, there isnt any system for peer review of awakened Kundalini's, while exorcisms arent allowed to be performed until they've been done. Of course, these processes only rule OUT possible causes- what you blame the unexplained on depends where your faith lies.
The Chakra of the third eye, however, doesnt lie near your two temporal lobes, which both lie in front of your ears, near the temple, but rather between the brows of the eyes.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[[rula]]

Hey Jstewart,

...the difference between dp/dr and the states resulting from meditation is exactly the same as the difference between a good trip on shrooms and a bad one. I think it's the subjective interpretation of the feelings involved.

i thought so for a while, then i realised it just can't be true. during the good trip you experience all the positives, and nothing but the negatives during the bad trip. yes, they might appear similiar because they're both mushroom trips, but unfortunately the only way out of a bad trip is to endure it, and come out at the end of the tunnel back in your "normal" self again. it's not possible to turn a bad trip into a good one, or dp into enlightenment.

if you give a hit of ecstacy to an unsuspecting victim who never expressed interest in the experience, he might be confused at first, he might have no control and try to fight it, but eventually the rush of serotonin will win, and he'll experience euphoria no matter what. if DP is enlightenment in disguise, then i'm still waiting for my rush. and i'm not even fighting it any more.

-rula

 

[[rula]]

The Chakra of the third eye, however, doesnt lie near your two temporal lobes, which both lie in front of your ears, near the temple, but rather between the brows of the eyes.

homeskooled,
I know i'm no body expert, but between the eye brows, or between the temples....isn't that pretty much the same region? i guess it depends on how much space one thinks a Chakra occupies.

 

[Homeskooled]

Dear Rula,
Your temporal lobes arent in-between your temples - if you tap your left temple, your finger is about a centimeter away from your left temporal lobe. If you tap your right, its a centimeter away from the right one. Between the two is your frontal lobe, cingulate gyrus (sp?), and prefrontal cortex. Right in-between your two eyebrows is your prefrontal cortex, and possibly your cingulate gyrus, which is smack in-between the two lobes of the brain. I dont really know that it translates to the third eye, though. Supposedly, it aids in determination. People with OCD tend to have overactive ones.

Peace
Homeskooled

 

[Beth]

i thought so for a while, then i realised it just can't be true. during the good trip you experience all the positives, and nothing but the negatives during the bad trip. yes, they might appear similiar because they're both mushroom trips, but unfortunately the only way out of a bad trip is to endure it, and come out at the end of the tunnel back in your "normal" self again. it's not possible to turn a bad trip into a good one, or dp into enlightenment.

For me it is. It started with a terrifying experience, which opened doors to incredible experiences, which took over which made me scared which led to terrifying experiences, with occasional incredibly good ones when i was in a particular set of mind. Then with various realisations and a switch of mind-set I know I can never get lost in terror again, and I can feel over-whelming bliss and ecstasy if i want too.

But...I still would rather just have the world real. You've got to have an ego to function, and since I've got to be that much in the world, can't just be a floating little bubble of bliss, I'd like the world to be real. I'd like to feel everything, and not have floors go wavy. But it's only a matter of annoyance now. I think enlightenment is feeling like this and believing firmly that it is a good way to feel, it does involve that element of faith. And I don't want to have any kind of faith. Except in reality.

 

[[rula]]

thanks Beth, reading that for some reason gave me a good warm feeling, i know i can adjust the way i think and feel about my dp, i'm only very rarely terrified of it now a days. bliss and ecstacy, i'm not there yet, but maybe soon considering i'm still new to this. oddly enough only certain places in my apartment seem to trigger a true feeling of dp terror. my doctor suggested testing for strong magnetic fields. :?:

homeschooled,
thanks for the lesson!!!