[Broken]

During the panic attack that started all this shit, there was the thought in my mind "I hate myself and want to die". So from there I went searching for this 'I' and had this experience of exploding into nothingness. Absolutely nothing. Just wide vast black empty nothing. This would be seen as an 'awakening' by spiritual seekers or Buddhists but as I had no experience of what it was, rejected it and was terrified. It really did feel as though the sense of self had either vanished or didn't exist at all. From there I came back to my body and it was contracted and full of fear and confusion, with my mind trying to reject what had just happened.

The next bit may well piss some people off lol but I think I am coming to the conclusion that what I saw was the truth. That there is no self, no doer, no free well, just thoughts and things happening regardless of whether I want them there or not. The whole point is I am now seeking for something, in this eternal struggle to find something that I lost. This belief is the entire problem; this is what I am currently contemplating. I don't need to do anything, search for anything, find anything. Nothing was lost and there is nothing to find. There was the realisation of no self, and that went against all my conditioned beliefs and thoughts. So it lead to this continually contracted and tense state leading to DPD. But all I need to do is nothing. I have tried everything to get rid of this and nothing worked. In fact nothing might work. Nothing I have done has even scratched the surface of my DP. When I seemed to find something that helped, all that happened was this sense of letting go and relief that I had found the cure.. with that a slight dip in symptoms. And then it came back, so I did more and more of the new 'cure' but it just didn't work the same. Whereas all that probably happened was that I managed to let go and do nothing for a minute because the mind could rest as I had 'found the cure'.

I know talking like this is going to be love and hate. Often I see people talking about non duality on here and I think it makes a lot of sense. But I completely understand people getting upset, angry and confused by it. It is nonsense really. But that is the point. The mind gets confused for a split second and can just stop. Just stop the search for something other than what is already happening. And sometimes in those moments of stopping the DP can seem to improve. But then the mind picks up again and claims what has just happened trying to reproduce it. Of course it can't be reproduced by the mind. The mind cannot know it, find it, do anything to get there, or know the direction to go

 

[TDX]

This would be seen as an 'awakening' by spiritual seekers or Buddhists but as I had no experience of what it was, rejected it and was terrified. It really did feel as though the sense of self had either vanished or didn't exist at all. From there I came back to my body and it was contracted and full of fear and confusion, with my mind trying to reject what had just happened.

Even if the "self" was just an "illusion" created by the brain it seems that, given how fucked up most people in this forum are, having a sense of self is an advantage. If getting rid of it was really the goal of buddhism and other religions it would mean little more than they seek impairment of meaningful brain functions.

 

[Broken]

Yeh agreed, it definitely doesn't seem to be an advantage from my experience. But what I mean is that I seem to have seen through it and once that was seen I can't unsee it. I am unsure whether that experience itself traumatised me or I remembered something briefly and suppressed that memory again. DP is often spoken about as just anxiety although it seems like something far far bigger. I think my anxiety could well resolve around the issue of this 'no self' experience, and having seen that I now suffer and search for that sense of self again. But maybe I will never find it as it was just a 'sense' of self and nothing more. Neuroscience research has shown that free will does seem to be an illusion. If it is then how can there be a chooser? I think the phrase from Paul David's book makes a lot of sense; "you're not going to get better, until you stop trying to get better". Equally it is very very difficult to live that.

 

[ThoughtOnFire]

I've come to similar conclusions of late.

BTW Your initial story sounds a lot like Eckhart Tolle's Moment of Realization.

Watch the first 7 minutes here:

 

[Broken]

Yes it does sound very similar. In his breakdown there seemed to be acceptance of what was happening though. For me there was a huge rejection. Through fear of the unknown, it really did feel like I had died. Also when coming back to my body that was contracted through terror, there was the thought that I didn't deserve that sense of bliss. It is sold to us that we have to earn happiness and peace. You have to get a job, work hard for good grades, suffer to find peace. Of course that isn't true

I do have a bit of a problem with Eckhart Tolle. When I first read his work I really thought I had found the answer to my suffering. However, he had his miraculous breakthrough by having a breakdown and being seriously suicidal and depressed. I am not suggesting that we grind ourselves down to the point we snap and become enlightened. But from his story it can clearly be seen that he did nothing to become awakened. He wasn't meditating or doing half the crap he waffles on about in his books. He was suffering, and a miracle happened. I don't doubt he has good intentions... although I partly do as he is in the 100 richest people in america. His priority is the Benjamin's, not freeing people of suffering. His techniques may bring short relief but they are not practical in any way shape or form. I didn't walk around feeling my inner body before dp, or focusing on 'the now'. How the fuck do you even focus on something outside of the now anyway? For me he made thoughts the new enemy which actually made my dp a bit worse. Thoughts are just thoughts. End of

Spiritual teachers like him aggravate me as seeking isn't the answer. Seeking is the problem. Especially for me and my DP I now believe. There is still this conditioned contraction in my body, this sense that I have to 'do' something, struggle, suffer, research and find the cure to this. But I really truly believe that striving, accompanied by tension, is making me so stressed that it CAUSES the thing I want to escape. I resist, it persists. But I am not saying resist your resistance. Or meditate on 'doing nothing' (which I have done). Because even then you are trying to achieve some state or technique outside of THIS that is happening NOW. I recommend someone called Tony Parsons. He has a "description not a prescription" as he put it. Because there is nothing to do. There is no way, no direction, no technique. There is nothing to do at all

 

[Pondererer]

With all this talk of "ego" and "self" and "illusion".

At the end of the day you are a lving organism. Both in a physically and a emotionally/spiritually sense. No matter what, you are alive/living and you experience life everyday. You also have great power over this experience/life. You can quit/change job tomorrow. You can move to a different country. You can find/change romantic partner. You can even decide to not live anymore (as a human on earth).

This is all true, so i dont buy the arguments of "self" and "ego" being some kinda jedi mind trick. These are all facts, whether you call them real, false, delusion, pointless, meaningful.

 

[Pondererer]

Even if all of life and everything u ever knew, was a lie/illusion. At the end of the day you still are experiencing it. Even if you are litterally neo in the matrix being stuck in a box thing sucking the life out of you, it's still real and happening.

 

[TDX]

But from his story it can clearly be seen that he did nothing to become awakened. He wasn't meditating or doing half the crap he waffles on about in his books. He was suffering, and a miracle happened.

Interestingly some people who claim to have attained "enlightenment" did so after psychological trauma, a mental disorder or even following physical damage like a stroke. For me this strengthens my suspicion that enlightenment, awakening or whatever it is called does often not describe a "higher" state of conciousness, but a deficit syndrome where important functions of the mind do not work anymore.

 

[Broken]

To be honest I don't believe in enlightenment. I just think these people have trauma and spontaneously recover from that trauma. They then live life and a lot of them describe the way they see the world is as if they are a young child with a vividness to it. Thoughts still happen but the suffering stops where they don't argue that things should be other than they are.

I think the point of free will is a moot point. You either believe in it or not. It doesn't change anything. I don't because I believe in Newtonian physics; every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Free will implies a force outside and beyond that... I know quantum physics is different, but I just don't think I am choosing anything here. If I want to eat it is because I am hungry. I didn't choose that. Then the thought pops up 'maybe I will have toast'. Then I believe and follow that thought. Did I choose the thought? No. Did I choose to believe the thought? no, those things just happened. So so much of what happens is conditioned. If the mind were an A4 piece of paper, what we are conscious of would be a dot on the page. I don't know how much can be controlled from there.

I mention this point because I am at the point where I am hopeless. Not in a bad way. If somebody has a serious spine injury they wrestle with the diagnosis, suffer, be miserable and try everything to fight it. They get a 2nd opinion. Then a 3rd. Then try this new therapy and that. Eventually, they come to terms with the diagnosis. They lose hope because there is no hope for them. It isn't a death sentence. They can build a life. I think the entire time I have had DP I have had hope and struggled and tried to get better. The simple fact is there is nothing I can do to get better. I have tried so many things and meds, nothing has really budged it to any significant degree. I think I am now at the point where I am really going to do nothing about this. Because the thoughts that I can and must find and do something are just nothing but pure stress. And ironically I think, a massive part of why things haven't improved

 

[Broken]

A human being is a part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feeling as something separated from the rest, a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.

Albert Einstein