[sebastian]

So, in one of my more pathetic instances of desperation in a Chapters book store a few weeks ago, i had the misfortune of settling on a real clunker of a book discussing borderline personality disorder. The book is truly awful, and i'm actually thinking of taking it back to the store and saying that i'd like to exchange it for something less sleep-inducing, but i'd probably only get a blank stare and awkward smiles, so i assume i'll just end up burning it in my back yard while giggling maniacally, as i'm wont to do, especially in these dark days just following the dreaded winter solstice.

Anyway, i won't mention the name of the book, lest my acrimonious lambasting plummets the clearly intellectually-challenged author into a set of deep ruminating despair, for which i would feel mildly responsible. But the book itself is dull...boring...pointless...pedantic...and just stupid.

But the point of this thread...my question...is this: What the hell is Borderline Personality Disorder, and is this what we have? Is DP considered a subsidiary of this? How does it all fit in? Or is this just another attempt by the hapless psychological community at throwing vague symptoms together with other vague symptoms into a collective category and assigning, quite randomly i'm sure, some sensationalistic sounding title or another, so they can all make more and more money while managing to avoid any real work and keeping their hands clean of guilt and responsibility with pusillanimous references to ethical vows and dubious laudatory certificates...oh, i don't know...i probably don't mean half of what i just said. It's just...many people are adept at sympathy, pity, and empathy...many more can memorize various psychological tenets, dogmas, categorizations...but how many can actually HELP? Isn't that the point? Isn't that what a "doctor" is supposed to do? But they don't help. The only people they help are brain-dead, drooling morons who are having marital trouble and spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of their time to uncover the fact that they need to "communicate". Wow. What a profession. They're like sooth sayers or something.

Anyway, sorry about the outburst...most of that isn't true. I'm just feeling frustrated. What i want to know is if anyone knows anything about this borderline personality disorder, and how it relates to dp/anxiety and the like.

Thanks,

s.

 

[dakotajo]

Hey Sebastian,

I dont know and I dont want to know anything about all that bpd crap. Like most of the psychological "diseases" Im sure its just conjured up and given a title so they can sell more drugs to treat it. It sounds to me like you have the field of psychiatry figured out.

 

[enngirl5]

Meet somebody one day with bpd and you'll KNOW what it is. lol. It's very very real.

 

[sebastian]

Hey Sebastian,

I dont know and I dont want to know anything about all that bpd crap. Like most of the psychological "diseases" Im sure its just conjured up and given a title so they can sell more drugs to treat it. It sounds to me like you have the field of psychiatry figured out.

hey joe...

well, i wouldn't want to lump all of psychiatry into that category. I mean, i think we've come a long way since the days of drilling holes in the head and leeches and all that...i mean, my uncle is schizophrenic and while he's totally incapicated with the amount of drugs they pump into him, he was a raving nut without them. While i'm sure he's not thrilled with the way his life has turned out (no fault of his own, i might add), at least the drugs have provided him with some sense of reprieve from the demons that plague him. And bi-polars, despite what some people said on that other thread (i shant name names, but it was flippantly referred to as mild mood swings or something of that ilk), and who clearly, have never known or been around a bi-polar patient...definitely need the medication.

I just hate it when i go to see a psychologist/therapist/hypnotist or what have you, and they sit there...so ostentatioiusly approachable...the smugness betrayed in the way their head tweaks to one side, suggesting concern...or the way their eyes widen to intimate empathy...the intermittently appropriate hmms and huhhs slipping out of their lips and past their pensively placed fingers. They're as transparent as the ether...these emotional pimps...lost and without a clue...biding time each session and throwing rice on walls to see what sticks.

Like i said...for the idiotic, they're great. They're incredibly adept at pointing out the obvious...like the fumbling fool who comes in complaining of stress from his job...and after a million sessions, the "doctor" suggests that maybe he should take a vacation and not take work so seriously when he comes back. What a breakthrough!

For us though...us categorical misfits...who can possibly hope to help...words give comfort...pills give pleasure...but who has the patience, intelligence, ability, experience, and wisdom to help us? No one. They're confused little shepards looking for the right sheep.

s.

 

[dakotajo]

I look at psychiatry nowadays with their electroshock treatments and their anti-psychotic drugs which both are speculated to do irreversible brain damage and I wonder have we come a long way? Some of the current day techniques seem just as barbaric and ridiculous as drilling a hole in a persons head to release demons.

 

[Guest]

Good post Sebastian, everytime I read one of your posts I learn about 20 new words lol, which is obviously a beneficial thing, but anyways as far as Borderline Personality Disorder, im not exactly sure of its medical definition. I know that Multiple Personality Disorder is when a person will actually act out a different persona without even consciously being aware of it. BPD isn't severe in that sense, I think it may have to do with trying to maybe act like others to fit in because one might no be comfortable with their own self?? Something along those lines

Heres a link http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/bpd.html that contains alot of medical jargon and bullshit.

it probably is bullshit, just so these greedy fucks can sell more medication and make more money.

I dunno

Im sure Janine will write a few paragraphs on the subject in response to this post so just wait for that.

 

[Dreamer]

From the Merck Manual of Mental Disorders which is in the links section of this site. Why am I here posting this? IT EXISTS.

"Borderline personality: Persons with this personality disorder--predominantly women--are unstable in their self-image, mood, behavior, and interpersonal relationships. This personality disorder becomes evident in early adult years, but it tends to become milder or to stabilize with age. Such persons believe they were deprived of adequate care during their childhood and consequently feel empty, angry, and entitled to nurturance. As a result, they are relentless seekers of care. This personality disorder is by far the most common type seen in psychiatric and all other types of health care services.

When persons with a borderline personality feel cared for, they appear like lonely waifs, who seek help for depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and past mistreatments. However, when they fear the loss of the caring person, their mood shifts dramatically and is frequently expressed as inappropriate and intense anger. The shift in mood is accompanied by extreme changes in their view of the world, themselves, and others--from black to white, from hated to loved, or vice versa (see splitting in Table 191-1). Their view is never neutral. When they feel abandoned (ie, all alone), they dissociate or become desperately impulsive. At times, their concept of reality is so poor that they have brief episodes of psychotic thinking, such as paranoid ideas and hallucinations.

Such persons have far more dramatic and intense interpersonal relationships than those with cluster A personality disorders. Their thought processes are disturbed more than those of persons with an antisocial personality, and aggression is more often turned against the self. They are more angry, more impulsive, and more confused about identity than those with a histrionic personality. They tend to evoke intense, initially nurturant responses in caretakers. But after repeated crises, vague unfounded complaints, and failures to comply with therapeutic recommendations, caretakers--including the physician--often become very frustrated with them and view them as help-rejecting complainers. Splitting, acting out, hypochondriasis, and projection are common coping mechanisms (see Table 191-1)."

More in a mo.....

 

[Dreamer]

I am currently in Dialectical Behavioral Therapy, though I'm not Borderline, but I grew up in a seriously invalidating environment. I have had certain borderline characteristics. Included in Borderline, which is an out-of-date term -- the new one proposed by Linehan is "Dyslimbia" (dysregulation in the limbic system) -- are severe episodes of depersonalization.

I don't know the diagnoses of the other people in my group, but we have similar characteristics from coming from severely dysfunctional backgrounds.

http://www.priory.com/dbt.htm

DBT which has been proven effective in clinical trials for at least 10+ years at University of Washington... and I think Marsha Linehan is now at Columbia University -- is based on Buddhist principles. Yes East meets West.

There are the four modules:

Mindfulness
Interpersonal Effectiveness Skills
Distress Tolerance
Emotion Module Skills

This is purely coping techniques. I need these as psychologically I see things in extremes of black or white, completely negative, or completely perfect. The goal is to work towards the center the "grey" area.

Thesis -------- Antithesis ------->Goal = Synthesis (Middle Ground) derived from Hegel and Marx Dialectical observations on society and economy.

Emotional Mind -------- WISE MIND ---------------- Rational Mind
Buddhist -- the goal is to achieve "wise mind" though it is impossible to achieve all the time. One tries to move towards the center.

Black--------------GREY ------------------White

I am gaining tremendous insight into myself through these very difficult to apply skills. 4 months of Mondays. I just started Mindfulness.

This is at University of Michigan Neuropsychiatric.

I have a psychiatrist I see once a week for my meds. And two ACSWs lead the groups. There is even a woman in the group who has had a head injury and subsequent impulse control problems. OCD patients, etc., etc., etc.

Not dredging up the past. Living in the present and coping.
I don't expect this to eliminate my DP/DR, chronic, but it is helping me control my racing thoughts, etc. Highly recommended if you can find a large uni that is familiar with this.

It is very similar to CBT, with the Buddhist concepts that the patient cannot fail in therapy, and that learning is a lifelong process.

 

[Dreamer]

The old-fashioned term meant "on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis" -- this is found to be both innacurate and stigmatizing.

As noted, further research into neurology reveals disruption in the limbic system of such individuals which can possibly be caused by continued stress on a more sensitive individual.

Joe, you will be happy to know that fits in with your fight/flight theory.

All of this is not bullshit. You have to actually READ medical journals, look up words you don't understand, take courses. I was the daughter of two doctors, one a psychiatrist -- who yes was a vicious woman. But to be a medical doctor one never stops studying, taking courses. None of us here understand even the tip of the iceburg of the human mind.

Another reason why I am thrilled to have Daphne Simeon's book coming out. Do you understand that that book will bring MORE ATTENTION TO OUR PROBLEM. HAVE MORE PSYCHIATRISTS INFORMED ABOUT IT. ISN'T THAT WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO?

 

[enngirl5]

DSM-IV Definition of BPD

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image, and affects, and marked impulsivity beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation. This is called "splitting."

Following is a definition of splitting from the book I Hate You, Don't Leave Me by Jerry Kreisman, M.D. From page 10:

The world of a BP, like that of a child, is split into heroes and villains. A child emotionally, the BP cannot tolerate human inconsistencies and ambiguities; he cannot reconcile anther is good and bad qualities into a constant coherent understanding of another person. At any particular moment, one is either Good or EVIL. There is no in-between; no gray area....people are idolized one day; totally devalued and dismissed the next.

Normal people are ambivalent and can experience two contradictory states atone time; BPs shift back and forth, entirely unaware of one feeling state while in the other.

When the idealized person finally disappoints (as we all do, sooner or later) the borderline must drastically restructure his one-dimensional conceptionalization. Either the idol is banished to the dungeon, or the borderline banishes himself in other to preserve the all-good image of the other person.

Splitting is intended to shield the BP from a barrage of contradictory feelings and images and from the anxiety of trying to reconcile those images. But splitting often achieves the opposite effect. The frays in the BP's personality become rips, and the sense of his own identity and the identity of others shifts even more dramatically and frequently.

Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in (5).

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.

Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

Chronic feelings of emptiness.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

Dissociation is the state in which, on some level or another, one becomes somewhat removed from "reality," whether this be daydreaming, performing actions without being fully connected to their performance ("running on automatic"), or other, more disconnected actions. It is the opposite of "association" and involves the lack of association, usually of one's identity, with the rest of the world.

There is no "pure" BPD; it coexists with other illnesses. These are the most common. BPD may coexist with:

Post traumatic stress disorder

Mood disorders

Panic/anxiety disorders

Substance abuse (54% of BPs also have a problem with substance abuse)

Gender identity disorder

Attention deficit disorder

Eating disorders

Multiple personality disorder

Obsessive-compulsive disorder

Statistics about BPD

BPs comprise:

2% of the general population

10% of all mental health outpatients

20% of psychiatric inpatients

75% of those diagnosed are women

75% have been physically or sexually abused

 

[enngirl5]

I know people can say, "oh well this can be anybody." and people will jump in wondering if they are borderline, but bpd is a very distinct illness, and probably often misdiagnosed in people that really don't have it. But for those that are borderline there's no mistaking it. I know people like to cry borderline b/c my best friend does, but she doesn't have it. It's one of those things you can't really understand unless you have it or know someone that does. Just like any other mental illness. Many people still claim depression and schitzophrenia and anxiety aren't real. Many claim benzo withdrawal isn't real. People just can't understand things they have never seen or witnessed before. Oh well. One of lifes little joys we have to get used to. :roll: Btw, I don't have bpd.

 

[Dreamer]

Yup, the Enneagirl has it PEGGED -- (edit, didn't mean to say she's Borderline!) but she knows what she's talking about. The DSM-IV has far better descriptions than the Merck Manual. But the Merck Manual is easily available online.

Also note the DSM-IV, the "Bible" for psychiatric diagnoses came out in 1994, and is 10 years out of date, or more if you consider how long it takes to put it together.

 

[enngirl5]

The old-fashioned term meant "on the borderline between psychosis and neurosis" -- this is found to be both innacurate and stigmatizing.

I agree. My best friend once read this which is one reason why she thinks she is borderline. She also saw "Girl Interrupted" one to many times, lol.

 

[dakotajo]

If Im not mistaken My first crazy shrink included bpd as one of my many mental diseases. The next one told I was either schizoid or bipolar. Man, did that freak me out. My current doctor tells me I dont have any of thoses diseases and I probably just have brain damage from drinking too much beer.

 

[sleepingbeauty]

From the Merck Manual of Mental Disorders which is in the links section of this site. Why am I here posting this? IT EXISTS.

"Borderline personality: Persons with this personality disorder--predominantly women--are unstable in their self-image, mood, behavior, and interpersonal relationships. This personality disorder becomes evident in early adult years, but it tends to become milder or to stabilize with age. Such persons believe they were deprived of adequate care during their childhood and consequently feel empty, angry, and entitled to nurturance. As a result, they are relentless seekers of care. This personality disorder is by far the most common type seen in psychiatric and all other types of health care services.

When persons with a borderline personality feel cared for, they appear like lonely waifs, who seek help for depression, substance abuse, eating disorders, and past mistreatments. However, when they fear the loss of the caring person, their mood shifts dramatically and is frequently expressed as inappropriate and intense anger. The shift in mood is accompanied by extreme changes in their view of the world, themselves, and others--from black to white, from hated to loved, or vice versa (see splitting in Table 191-1). Their view is never neutral. When they feel abandoned (ie, all alone), they dissociate or become desperately impulsive. At times, their concept of reality is so poor that they have brief episodes of psychotic thinking, such as paranoid ideas and hallucinations.

Such persons have far more dramatic and intense interpersonal relationships than those with cluster A personality disorders. Their thought processes are disturbed more than those of persons with an antisocial personality, and aggression is more often turned against the self. They are more angry, more impulsive, and more confused about identity than those with a histrionic personality. They tend to evoke intense, initially nurturant responses in caretakers. But after repeated crises, vague unfounded complaints, and failures to comply with therapeutic recommendations, caretakers--including the physician--often become very frustrated with them and view them as help-rejecting complainers. Splitting, acting out, hypochondriasis, and projection are common coping mechanisms (see Table 191-1)."

More in a mo.....

i can relate a little too well to this. more than id really like to admit. :? (most of what is written there is the reason my life has been biting me in the ass lately.. my moods are all over the place and im very paranoid and when i do i turn into this raving bitch out of nowhere. my moods are constantly shifting.. they can shift in mid conversation. i dunno though. wierd.)

 

[sebastian]

thanks for the info dreamer and enngirl...

i hate to be predictible, but that truly does describe me as well. I mean, i'm sooo black and white in my thinking...and with relationships...i've ended friendships and relationships over absolute trifles...i'm the prince of melodrama in that sense. I really do have a very emotionally needy side to me. I mean, if i don't feel that people are devoted to me 100% of the time, day and night, i feel hugely resentful. I constantly need attention showered on me, and i constantly need to be reassured that people love me. It's exhausting even for me, to keep up with my rapacious desire to feel loved. I'm not sure where it all stemmed from with myself, but it's such a terrible personality trait. And it really does hurt relationships. Most women i date find me irresistably charming and fabulously captivating at first...but my constant need to be the center of attention and my constant need for them to reaffirm that they care about me/love me/like me, or what have you, is enough to drive anyone away.

Now, i have a question...what is the difference between DP and BPD? I mean, obviously DP comes with a lot of extra baggage that BPD doesn't seem to have (ie. the "dreaminess" feeling, emotional deadness, etc.), but is BPD just a subsection of DP, administering our emotions?

Thanks kids,

s.

 

[Guest]

When I first heard the term boderline personality disorder...I thought,here we go.What's this?it sounds like a person that sort of has a personality but didn't quiet make it.

I decided best to check it out on the internet.I found heaps of information and support groups.
I discovered that there are several personality disorders.
Borderline
Schizoid
Anti social
Parananoid
Narcissistic
Avoidant
Dependent
Obsessive/Compulsive

There are actually a few others,I can't recall them.

What happened was whilst reading about each type,one in particular resonated rather loudly wth me.I came to see I have an avoidant personality disorder.
I think that this is the way it happens.
You will quickly recognise your particular set of traits and start nodding your head with aha,aha...........that's me!

Naturally to what degree you might have a personality disorder is like any other condition,anywhere from mild to extreme.
It appears that some of us might have two personality disorders.
For eg the people on a avoidant group also think it sometimes crosses over with schizoid personality.

One guy wrote a book claiming that all personality types are narcissitic in nature?I guess he would say that as he has a narcissistic personality.

I suppose one could claim that they have a persoanlity disorder or simply say they have certain personality traits that hinder their life and relationships with others.

Unless you are going to seek treatment for a particular personality disorder IMO it's pretty much up to the individual how much of the concept they choose to accept.
Nothing is black and white.
Just as I share dp/dr with people here,I'm still an individual in other ways,I have some things in common but certainly not all.

I can well understand that some people don't like tags or labels.
It's possible it might add to their low self esteem.
I don't have a problem with it........I figure what's one more going to hurt lol
I've found it helpful by getting to know myself and seeing the areas I could work on.
I also feel a sense of relief as people do here in identifying with others who share my afflication.

Just my opinion,cheers Shelly

 

[Guest]

If Im not mistaken My first crazy shrink included bpd as one of my many mental diseases. The next one told I was either schizoid or bipolar. Man, did that freak me out. My current doctor tells me I dont have any of thoses diseases and I probably just have brain damage from drinking too much beer.

Now I understand why you think all doctors all idiots and meds are poison and all is evil!!!!!!! A doctor finally told you all this was caused by a simple brain damage caused by too much beer, so it's not your fault, it's a brain damage. Hun? You aren't mentally disturbed, you just have neurological damage. it's so releasing, so relaxing to hear that, isn't it? It neurological, not psychological. So you aren't implied in your therapy, because it's beer who caused that. Pfew. You ARE normal. Gob bless ya. It's the third doctor who is right, 100 % right, and other are pure crazy schrinks.

Believe me I understand your thinking now. But I understand too that NO DOC have a pure and clear diagnosis, it doesn't mean it's the right one. But if you are OK with it, fine. If it cured you, fine!!!!!!!

But don't bother others who believes that maybe mental distress exists for REAL.

My apologies, I had to tell it.

Cynthia

 

[dakotajo]

Cynthia,

I dont try to bother anybody. If people here cant accept the fact that what I write is my opinion and not be bothered by it then thats too bad. I know people have mental problems. Theres no doubt about that. I just dont believe in the way they single out a certain set of mental symptoms and call it a "disease" just so they can prescribe a certain flavor pill. I also dont like they way they market their "diseases". I think the whole mental health system along with the drug companies have gotten completely out of hand.

Joe

 

[enngirl5]

Bpd is a personality disorder. Dp is a symptom that often goes along with it. Many people that have bpd were severely physically or mentally abused as children. Severely. So the only thing I can figure is the trauma causes them to develop dissociation problems. You can find a lot of info on bpd online. Dissociation (ie. dr and dp) is only one problem of the bpd. They also have extreme mood swings, black/white thinking (they love you one minute and despise you the next), money/drug/alcohol problems, they're very hard to live with because they themselves are often physically and mentally abusive to their loved ones. People with depersonalization don't necessarily have these traits unless they have another disorder. http://www.mhsanctuary.com/borderline/
Sebastian, just because you're sensitive and melodramatic, needy, "The Starving Artist", doesn't mean you have bpd. I say if things are going ok with you, quit reading about personality disorders and move on with things. Take care sebastian.