[Guest]

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[Guest]

I call it "emptiness". And I agree, it is a place beyond lonely.
A place so empty, that I'm not even there myself.

 

[Guest]

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[Guest]

Yep, that's what I think of as the "deeper" level of DP. And it does indeed feel like there is NOBODY in there, inside the Self.

We feel like we know what to say and do, as if we know the things this person WOULD say and do if she/he was still inside us. So we retain WHO the person is, knowledge-wise. What's missing is the self's SENSE of self, the ability to FEEL one's own identity.

It sounds so ridiculous because a normal person in a normal state has NO concept of what "feeling my own identity" FEELS LIKE. The ability to experience it rules out the ability to "assess" it.

It's like a Figure/Ground drawing - you can see EITHER the two faces in profile, OR the vase, but you cannot "see" both at the same time. They're both "there" - but one recedes as the other "comes forward" in the image's perspective.

That's what's at work in this level of dp. We can't stop looking FOR the sense of self, and we can't "FIND" the sense of self while we're still looking.

When the altered state of consciousness "happened" (i.e., when the dp hit us) we "went to" a vantage point that CANNOT "experience the self's identity". If we could just MOVE OUT OF that vantage point, we'd be okay. But we are so "dumbstruck" by the anomaly of being able "To Be" without being able "To Be Aware of the IDentity of Being" that we keep ourselves in the state for fear that there is somethign WORSE (this was bad enough, for God's sake..and we no longer trust our own minds anymore)

We feel we're already at "the ledge" of self-annihilation. IF we move one step away from our current state, we might "fall off" into total oblivion.

Truth is, we're on the ground floor, and there is nowhere to fall TO. But we can't know that and we don't believe that.

All I can tell you is that your SELF is still "in there" and has always been "in there" - your Perceptor of the self is lost, not the Self.

Janine

 

[Guest]

I want my Perceptor back, darn it.

 

[lone wolf]

I tried to describe it to my therapist as standing in the desert, as a small child, all alone, with no life there, calling out if there is anyone there. And then I call, and there is noone there.

Wow, you described exactly my deepest fear regarding the chance of becoming DR-free. I feel in that case, if the icy wall melted completely away, I would have nobody to talk to how good I would feel, finally being alive again.

I may feel like this because nobody I have ever met and connected with has never experienced this isolating icy wall for many years and then got rid of it, or that's how I have figured it out (I may be wrong). So deep inside I prefer this icy wall, instead of getting rid of it. And what is sad in this situation - in this way I make my life much more desolate compared to how it could be... It is like I prefer living in a cage or a glass cube and only watching the life through my eyes, instead of really living and feeling the life around me.

My psyche is weird, as I feel my greatest fear is really being alone in the world (I don't mean this in a philosophical sense, but rather in the sense of interacting with other people), and cuz of my fear I isolate myself from other people with DR, for not to feel completely alone. This fear is totally irrational, and although I try to tell myself that the hypothetical disappearance of DR won't make myself feeling alone, but possibly more in touch with my loved ones and other people, I still prefer staying in my icy cube of DR.

My fear in nutshell is that I am scared of nobody welcoming me back to life, if the icy wall of DR once melted away... And what is crazy: it is mostly this fear that keeps the icy walls of DR alive in me, and DR makes my interaction with other people always detached in some way or other. It is a 'safety blanket' for this fear of being totally alone - it feels like I would be alone in the empty desert my eyes closed, as I don't want to know being all alone and DR makes it bearable (eyes closed). At least this is how I have figured it out.

And at the same time, rationally thinking I know I am not alone, I am not living in a desert but among other people... I know many people have already noticed that this fear is useless, also here in this message board. But my rational thinking never reaches the fear deep inside...

 

[Guest]

Ninnu, I was thinking, when I wrote about being in the desert.
What would happen if there was someone to hear my call?
Would I accept it? Would I accept the other person's help or, as in your case, the welcome back to life?

I think for me, and I know this is true, I wont accept it, and go back to (or stay in) the desert.
So the question is, if its ok to ask: what would happen with you Really (or what do you expect to happen with you) if you actually DO get the welcome?

 

[Guest]

I prefer this icy wall, instead of getting rid of it.

Reminds me of the Shawshank quote 'institutionalized'. I have moments of total isolation, but most of the time I feel surrounded by people who care...and there is a connection. We really need to stop believing we are the only ones who feel this way. All of my friends are lonely to a certain extent and we need to share the humanity with them.

At times I consider myself to be some sort of martyre (sp?) where I must become some soldiering, stoic type and fight through this life alone...pretty much just get it over with, but this truly neglects the fact that we need to share this common experience with our fellow man. DPDR does not make us any more or less human. It is no excuse to separate ourselves from our species.

 

[maria]

I feel most lonely when I'm around other people. Basically it feels that I've become so depressed, empty and silent that no one should want to hang around with me. Which is fine because I can be alone. At the same time I know I'm still there somewhere, I still may have a chance to have a happy life, and I shouldn't whine anyway because there are worst things in the world. This I can say because I don't feel anxiety, panic, or anything like that, they can be hell.

 

[lone wolf]

What would happen if there was someone to hear my call?
Would I accept it? -- So the question is, if its ok to ask: what would happen with you Really (or what do you expect to happen with you) if you actually DO get the welcome?

Hi Wendy, I really am not sure about it... I have sometimes thought about one imaginary situation: me standing in the edge of a cliff, and someone asking me to grab her/his hand. If I choose to accept the call and the welcome back to life, my DR would disappear and I would be alive again, but if I don't, I have to jump off the cliff and die.

I realized that I would rather die than accept the welcome, if the person cannot fathom how deep the change in my consciousness really would be in that moment. And after I realized this, I thought it is crazy, as noone can ever expect that much understanding from someone else, to really know my feelings before and after derealization. So I wish to experience something that is never possible...

As a 4-year-old child I had a friend, when I lived in Norway with my parents. She was somehow exactly "in the same wave-lenghts" with me, and though I spoke Finnish to her and she spoke Norwegian to me, we understood perfectly each other. I knew when she wanted to draw or go to the kiosk buying sweets or to play at keeping shop in the garden. When we returned back to Finland after a year, I used to write letters with my Norwegian friend, until for some reason we stopped being pen pals when we became teenagers.

Maybe I expect some kind of connection to happen, which I experienced as a small child in Norway, but at the same time I know it just isn't possible. I have a loving boyfriend, a couple of very good friends and loving parents and little siblings, so I should feel at ease with them. But still I am afraid of being alone in the world - deep inside I fear most of feeling alone with other people, especially with the loved ones...

I realize this fear is crazy, but what to do for it? It is so easy to live my life derealized, as I have got used to living in this state, but at the same time I hope some miracle to happen someday in the future - that for some reason or another my fear of being alone would stop. I wish I someday would find enough self-esteem (or whatever it is I need) that I would start feeling I can handle the experience of becoming DR-free without expecting my boyfriend to become supernaturally sensitive, so he could welcome me back to life.

I don't know, but I think perhaps this fear inside needs just time and active headwork to diminish - maybe if I somehow would be able to tell myself I needn't fear feeling alone, my DR would disappear someday...? All in all - I'm sure it will take many years for it to happen. Let's see...

 

[Guest]

Janine wrote:

We feel like we know what to say and do, as if we know the things this person WOULD say and do if she/he was still inside us. So we retain WHO the person is, knowledge-wise. What's missing is the self's SENSE of self, the ability to FEEL one's own identity.

And that is exactly why talk therapy is bullshit.

Talking and thinking about it makes the sense of self even more rational and therefore drives people deeper into the pathological form of only thinking or knowing oneself without feeling it.

Maybe that is why the associative process helped you, janine. Because it meant spontaneous thinking instead of planned thinking (forcing) one's self back.

 

[Guest]

Ninnu I have sent you a PM.