[Ben]

The recent events in London got me thinking this morning and I thought I would share my ruminations with the group. For the Moderator Nazis out there, this is about DP so don't get your panties in a curl over my words here.

I'm convinced of the fact that the human creature falls into two main categories: those who are aware they exist, and those who aren't aware they exist. This may seem like a funny, bizarre statement as most would think, "Yes, of course I exist" - but my point goes deeper than that. Ever since I was afflicted with Depersonalizatoin, I have become extremely sensitive to my existence, and after having come out of it, I have become extremely aware of the existence of others. The world seems so much more vivid to me - and, it's possible, that the experience of DP was purely a shield during the transition I had towards this more sensitive awareness of my world.

Regardless of how you look at it, there comes a point when people behave with such acts that you begin to question exactly what view they have upon the world, or exactly how aware they are that this isn't some kind of melodrama staged purely for their own interests. When someone plants a bomb in the underground of London, or when someone hurls an airliner towards a building full of thousands, you stop and wonder how they viewed their world and what, exactly, they thought about a night before they went to sleep.

I have yet to meet a person on this board who has a bad heart, or is out to hurt anyone, or is out to do anyone harm - especially to the level we saw displayed in London today. We are good people and we are sensitive, warm and generous people. Our pain is brought on by our sensitivity towards the world, our past experiences living it, and the result of our minds being, probably, a bit more in tune with the nature of nature than others. When I read the threads that flow on this group I don't see a bunch of people without hearts or minds or souls, I see wonderful folks reaching out to each other in an attempt to carry on in this place.

Be thankful it's DP. The horrid minds that performed these disgusting acts of pure insensitivity in London today are the real ones without awareness of the world, they are the ones that are without person or reality - living in a maniacal world of insane religiosity and lack of reason. These people are animals - and in light of that, I see us - the sensitive ones - as the ones that truly experience life.

Next time you feel depersonalized, ask yourself if it is you that views the world in a tilted way, or if you simply became aware of how tilted the world really is.

To all my friends in the UK - my thoughts go out to you.

 

[Guest]

I will begin my rebuttal by saying "my, I do love that Ben" (and I do)

However, I disagree here on a few points.

WHile yes, we are all decent people here (and I truly think we're well above average), we are human. And as humans, we ALL (every human, dp or not, board member or not, internet savvy or not) have HUGE amounts of rage and violence in us.

We can choose to act as we choose - to consider repurcussions, to weigh with compassion, to "Golden Rule" it, etc....but in our hearts, we are filled with ALL KINDS OF feelings and thoughts, many of them very far from pure and warm and fuzzy.

Be careful that you don't get TOO caught up in seeing yourselves as "all good of heart" - that is one of the easiest pathways to mental symptoms. When we are afraid of our own "inner terrorist" we often create obsessions and crazy thoughts or dp states of all kinds of hell for ourselves. We start to fear that IF we acknowledged our own rage, we would have to ACT on it. Not true.

It can be very important for the healing process, for all things mental, to work towards accepting that we are VERY human, and can be dear and loyal and loving and considerate AND petty and jealous and vengeful and controlling. If we are too afraid of seeing our own dark sides, we are just "bait" for symptoms.

Please don't hurt me, Ben.
grin

 

[Dreamer]

I disagree as well, my POV being that mental illness of all kinds is an "equal opportunity" scourge, as are all illlnesses. Good people and bad people get mental illness, rich and poor, educated and uneducated, intelligent and not so intelligent, etc, etc.

And I agree with Janine to an extent in that we are indeed all human beings, and as such are fallible sp?, none of us perfect.

There are people who have come and gone on this Board who have been tremndously kind, empathetic, and others who aren't.

Yes, we are unique in this miserable experience and it is excellent we can share our experiences with others -- not be alone, but I've seen all kinds of people since joining Andy's Board in 1999.

Also, I see serious social problems at the root of terrorism, it is a "gang mentality"in a sense. Those commiting this barbaraism seem to be young men, disenfranchised. This gives them a goal, a purpose, in a society where they see no future. Where they have no hope, where death seems to offer more than life. If one is raised with this mentality ... how is that "undone."

I haven't a clue.
Very sad.

Best,
D

 

[Ben]

Be careful that you don't get TOO caught up in seeing yourselves as "all good of heart" - that is one of the easiest pathways to mental symptoms. When we are afraid of our own "inner terrorist" we often create obsessions and crazy thoughts or dp states of all kinds of hell for ourselves. We start to fear that IF we acknowledged our own rage, we would have to ACT on it. Not true.

Very good points, and I'm glad you made them. I guess I'm a bit sensitive myself about what happened in London.

In the end I think I got a bit wordy, but my point is simple and direct: we have DP, but we could have it a lot worse. I'll believe that whole heartedly. I also think that people sometimes are so afraid that they feel lost, but I wanted to make point that alongside the many things people could do when they feel lost or without a direction (such as throwing an airplane into a building), we're doing the right thing which is reaching out to others on this group.

Please don't hurt me, Ben.

Oh my God Janine - please don't think I'm going after anyone on this board (especially in this part of the forum). Please read the PM I just sent to you. It has also been brought to my attention that some individuals I recently disagreed with are moderators (and were bothered by my "Moderator Nazis" comment); and let it be known that I didn't realize anyone's "status" until now (this shows you how much I really care about "Moderator" status). This wasn't meant as a re-opening of an old attack but as a jestful nudge towards the status of "Moderator" in general. A joke - read my lips: J.O.K.E.

I am more than happy to have people make return posts to me and say that they disagree with things - that's what learning and growth is all about.

 

[Lilymoonchild]

I agree that good and bad people are stricken with dp, along with all other disorders.
Last night, (actually, it was probably right about the time the attacks were happening) I was watching a program about the Congo, and how it is the most dangerous place to live and all. It made me thankful for what I have, where I am, and that I have the time to not only think about dp, but to blog about it as well.
I think dp sometimes can be accentuated by not having enough to think about besides how we feel. If we truly had other things to be more concerned with--foraging for food, where we're going to sleep, not getting killed today--I somehow think our depersonalization might not be such a problem.
A lot of times, social issues take me out of my dp for a while, because when I truly realize how insignificant it is that I feel a little out of sorts when there are people being raped and murdered in the world every day, I feel a little better (as morbid as that sounds.)

 

[mcsiegs]

"All the world is a stage, and everyone has their part"

Is that statement really true? Or is everyone just searching for the Andy Warhol's 15 minutes of fame to distinguish themselves from the rest of the world?

Whether someone is good or bad, people need to feel as though they stand for something and stand up for something. Whether it be something as major as religion, or something as small as a song (think about how defensive some people get when you hate a song they love), people need to feel their opinion matters and that other people are listening. Some people take it to the extreme, and kill people in the name of beliefs that they feel others are trying to squash.

The people who did this in London spend their lives training how to kill and how to die. They train for the 15 minutes of fame.

We, as DPers train our whole lives to hopefully one day experience 15 minutes of lack of self awareness and the outside world, let alone fame.

What I am trying to say is that the goals of all people are different. Unfortunately, some goals are good (I want to cure AIDS, I want to be the guy to cure cancer), and some are bad (I want to fly a plane for terror purposes). We will never be able to change the goals of anybody. What we can do is reach our own before it is too late.

Try and live life to it's fullest. Screw the people with bad goals. Pet a dog, Hug a cat, Feed a homeless person, take your mom to dinner, tell your sister you love her.

And if you die tomorrow from someone who had a bad goal, your life was fulfilled the last day you lived.

 

[Ben]

Try and live life to it's fullest.

Amen brother.

 

[delicateshadow]

wish I could

I guess its having an 'inner terrorist' (yes I have approached 'her' in therapy)is what can make it so hard, at least one of the things, anyway...

(living in London and trying to dissociate, but its not working so far )

Katie

 

[bright23]

Feel at a loss about todays events, it looks really grim in the "real world" presently.

My thoughts are with our friends in the U.K. Peace.

 

[person3]

hahaha

good heart...

*ahem*

I mean of course I love the little children! And the trees!

 

[Sojourner]

Okay, the soup needs something, so here goes:

http://www.scienceforpeople.com/Essays/mind_reading.htm

 

[bright23]

wow.

 

[Monkeydust]

Ben, I don't mean this in a bad way, but I don't agree at all. In fact I think this kind of attitude is probably a little "dangerous".

The minute we start saying that the people who detonate themselves, kill innocents and so on are somehow "just evil", or that somehow they are all psychopaths with warped minds intent on murder, is the minute we make the situation far worse.

The fact is that these terrorists are rational, they know exactlywhat they're doing and, importantly, they are doing it for a reason. Most of them have grievances with us beyond our status as "western infidels".

I'm not saying that we shouldn't condemn them or their activities, but we have to understand that terrorism is instigated by rational people and that they have reasons for doing so. The way to solve the issue is to work out what these reasons are, and to try and rectify the situation. Demonizing them helps nobody, and certainly won't prevent further atrocities.

 

[person3]

lilymoonchild-

I LOVE Kahlil Gibram!

Gibran?

Kalil?

I don't know if i even spelled any of it right!

oh well. you know who i mean!

 

[Sojourner]

The minute we start saying that the people who detonate themselves, kill innocents and so on are somehow "just evil", or that somehow they are all psychopaths with warped minds intent on murder, is the minute we make the situation far worse.

Poppycock! We will hunt them down and wipe them out -- them and their evil supporters, enablers, and defenders.

The fact is that these terrorists are rational, they know exactlywhat they're doing and, importantly, they are doing it for a reason. Most of them have grievances with us beyond our status as "western infidels".

Balderdash! When the allegedly sane think insanity is rational, we have increased the ranks of the insane.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't condemn them or their activities, but we have to understand that terrorism is instigated by rational people and that they have reasons for doing so.

Horse twaddle! Irrational crapola! The world is beginning to understand that the defenders of these murderers are just as guilty as they are. And you'd better believe that they are going to be treated accordingly. Sane people do not condemn the activities of "rational" people.

The way to solve the issue is to work out what these reasons are, and to try and rectify the situation. Demonizing them helps nobody, and certainly won't prevent further atrocities.

The supporters of these crazy people -- just as much as the crazy people themselves -- need to be pointed out as the demons they are.

 

[Monkeydust]

Poppycock! We will hunt them down and wipe them out -- them and their evil supporters, enablers, and defenders.

This is exactly the kind of message that doesn't help matters whatsoever, and in fact makes them worse.

But let's suppose your plan is the right thing to do for the minute: where would you find them? How would you "wipe them out"? Do you propose to destroy ideas with bullets and bombs? Do you really think that would work?

If you think the best idea to solve the issue would be to invade another country, perhaps you need reminding that the statement allegedly made by the terrorists on their website stated explicitly that their motive for the attacks was the West's invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

I personally don't see how a "gung-ho" attitude to the matter can solve the problem.

Balderdash! When the allegedly sane think insanity is rational, we have increased the ranks of the insane.

You might like to put it down to "insanity". But, by all evidence, it is not.

In fact most of the Al-qaeda figures I've read about seem to be very intelligent, well-educated people. Muhhamed Atta, for instance, the main perpetrator of 9/11, had a top degree from a German University - I think it might have been Hamburg.

We may call these people "bad" or "evil". They are not, however, insane in the least.

Horse twaddle! Irrational crapola! The world is beginning to understand that the defenders of these murderers are just as guilty as they are. And you'd better believe that they are going to be treated accordingly. Sane people do not condemn the activities of "rational" people.

You seem to be confusing matters unnecessarily.

I am not saying that what these people are doing is permissible, not in the least; I'm just saying that they are not nutcases.

It's perfectly possible to be rational and evil. I don't see where your problem here is. In fact it seems to me that the vast majority of "evil" people - at least the more famous ones - have been rational and "sane".

The supporters of these crazy people -- just as much as the crazy people themselves -- need to be pointed out as the demons they are.

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

I have no problem with calling them "demons" per se. It's when we say they are just demons - that they're mindless, evil, irrational, inexplicable folk - that we lose are way.

 

[Sojourner]

M-dust wrote:
I am not saying that what these people are doing is permissible, not in the least; I'm just saying that they are not nutcases.

----

And I am saying that you may want to rethink your definition of the meaning of the word.

M-dust further wrote:
I have no problem with calling them "demons" per se. It's when we say they are just demons - that they're mindless, evil, irrational, inexplicable folk - that we lose are way.

----

It is wholly irrational to believe that evil can bring about good. It is wholly irrational to believe that by killing your family I will make you love and respect me.

Evil is not a thing. It is the absence of the good.

Being evil has nothing to do with being intelligent. Adolf Hitler was intelligent. Ted Bundy was intelligent. Satan is intelligent. Many evil throughout history have had brilliant minds. But they were crazy nutcases.

The perversion of good to evil is the definition of nutcase.

 

[Sojourner]

Soj wrote:
And I am saying that you may want to rethink your definition of the meaning of the word.

When she meant:

And I am saying that you may want to rethink your definition of nutcase.

 

[Sojourner]

Hm. Tried saying so long to Mike, but was told the forum is "locked." Now his message has disappeared...

 

[g-funk]

I think the underlying theme here is that 'insane' isn't as simple as just a diagnosis from your psych. It's a socially constructed term. These people don't hear voices/see demons driving them to do the things they do, they are driven by very real reasons, but these reasons are so far removed from anything anyone of us can comprehend that in our society, it IS delusional. To us. And probably to most of the rest of the world.

Think about if you had grown up, indoctrinated with this shit, you knew nothing else other than your 'cause' in life, I personally don't think this makes you insane to act on this. It's an interesting thing I've often wondered, a bit like Fred and Rose West, they had such screwed up childhoods, how accountable are they for their actions? They weren't mad, they could rationalise.

However, my more human and gut reaction is to stick them on a bonfire.