[Lilymoonchild]

Does anyone ever wonder if we are somehow the enlightened ones? Like, maybe, we are the unfortunate result of evolution, a bulding block along a path that eventually will lead to a higher form of human? Or am I just a little silly?
Also, while I'm being all esoteric, I'm wondering if anyone feels sometimes like they are haunted. I am usually afraid of the dark, afraid of ghosts and monsters and all of the other things that live in the shadows that most children outgrow but I never did. There is a corner of my room that I feel has something living in it. Some sort of ghost or something, I don't know. A friend of mine theorized that it was an extension of myself that I had externalized.
Alright, at this point I'm rambling. Just wondered if anyone else knows what this feels like, or even better if they know how to fix it.

 

[Sojourner]

I agree with your friend. Psychotherapy would do you a world of good, because you seem to be quite open to talking about it all. Why not try it?

I've said elsewhere that I think DP/DR is just another point of view our consciousness can take. It's not always accompanied by fear; when it is, that's a panic attack.

Remember that DP/DR is a psychosomatic illness. Your mind and emotions are telling your body something is wrong. What's wrong is what you have to discover and experience. Then you will have no DP/DR unless you want to shift your consciousness into that state for a moment or two.

What's in the corner of your room in the shadows are your deeply repressed unconscious thoughts, desires, and feelings that scare you. The sense of haunting is the same thing. They are parts of yourself that your conscious mind is afraid of. But health cannot return unless you make your conscious mind unafraid. That's done in therapy by becoming conscious of what your unconscious mind holds that scares you so much.

You need to allow your unconscious to bubble up what needs to be gotten rid of. Do that and there will be no DP/DR.

Main Entry: psy?cho?so?mat?ic
Pronunciation: -s&-'ma-tik
Function: adjective
Etymology: International Scientific Vocabulary

1 : of, relating to, concerned with, or involving both mind and body <the psychosomatic nature of man -- Herbert Ratner>

2 : of, relating to, involving, or concerned with bodily symptoms caused by mental or emotional disturbance <psychosomatic illness> <psychosomatic medicine>
- psy?cho?so?mat?i?cal?ly /-ti-k(&-)lE/ adverb

 

[bright23]

"Does anyone ever wonder if we are somehow the enlightened ones? Like, maybe, we are the unfortunate result of evolution, a bulding block along a path that eventually will lead to a higher form of human? Or am I just a little silly?"

Oh boy Lillymoon, you probably don't want to get me started on that one. That thought slowly took me down a pretty steep slope over the past ten years... with dangerous beasts and truly beautiful sights all along the way. I'm currently back at the car in the parking lot, and apparently lost my keys somewhere back on the mountain. I'd prefer to leave my post at metaphor level at the moment.

I think its a combination of "a little silly" and "a tablespoon profound."

 

[bright23]

"I've said elsewhere that I think DP/DR is just another point of view our consciousness can take. It's not always accompanied by fear; when it is, that's a panic attack."

I'm a little unsure of your definitions Sojourner. I've had two major DPs in my lifetime, 3 years apart. They came out of nowhere (well, drug induced actually) and both lasted approx 1.5 hours. I hope to never have to experience another one again. Intense FEAR OF INSANITY was the MAJOR emotional component to these DP experiences. In between these two DPs I experienced several Panic Attacks, which while still comprising of INTENSE FEAR, did not have the element of EXPERIENCING SEEMING INSANITY.

In brief, DP and PANIC ATTACK are two clearly delineated experiences for me. The former was rare, and centered around the fear of INSANITY and, for the record involved a whole lot of uncontrollable howling, shaking, and lying fetal in as small a space I could possibly occupy. This was not "just another point of view (my) consciousness could take." This was another beast entirely. The latter was more frequent, and centered around intense fear of DEATH, and I could control myself physically during these experiences.

I have had brief flashes of DP, brief meaning a few seconds, and I suppose there wasn't enough time for the fear response to fully kick in. So I can say I have experienced DP without the fear.

I don't know if this is helpful to you, but its helpful to me to clarify.

ANY HOWLERS OUT THERE? ON THE FLOOR, FETAL AND MOANING DPrs OUT THERE? I'm quite curious... fess up please...

 

[peaceboy23]

I think it's interesting what you say about the corner of your room that is haunted. Sometimes I'll feel like someone else or other people are in the room with me, even though I'm alone. Or, i'll be at a famliy dinner or on a trip with a group, and I'll feel like someone is missing, even though everyone is there. I think, if i look at this logically, its just all my thoughts and inner "ghosts" that are there that I havent' dealt with, and they are trying to get my attention, if that makes sense. And the feeling of someone missing could be the inner parts of me that I've never brought tot the table so to speak. Ok, maybe I'm beinig a little ridiculous and far-fetched here, but it's a thought.

 

[Sojourner]

Bright,

Hmm. That doesn't sound like what I've been hearing here about DP/DR at all, as a matter of fact. People have talked about the interior phenomenon; I don't recall reading anything about howling or getting into the fetal position or fear of insanity.

They have talked about seeing things in a fog, seeing objects but not really knowing their purpose, losing the normal sense of conventions that we usually don't think about, the arbitrariness of our bodies, and so forth.

But maybe I just missed any other discussions that were about what you just described.

Now, were you howling and curled up because nothing seemed real, or for some other reason?

 

[Sojourner]

Peaceboy,

I came from a large family - five girls and two parents - and we would all share that sense of "Who's missing?" and laugh and laugh because we were all there!

 

[Sojourner]

"Does anyone ever wonder if we are somehow the enlightened ones? Like, maybe, we are the unfortunate result of evolution, a bulding block along a path that eventually will lead to a higher form of human? Or am I just a little silly?"

---------------

Funny you should ask that. This experience is not dissimilar to the transcendent experience of mystic union with God (St. John of the Cross, for example), which is totally blissful. Many of the same features exist, but they are tinged with love and beauty, not fear. There are negative aspects, but they are the suffering of the realization of one's not deserving to stand so close to God, and are not fear.

But the main features -- the overall sense -- are indeed similar. It *is* a form of enlightenment. In a sense, DPers are given a view that without fear is usually only attained by people who pray a great deal and meditate (Christian meditation, not Eastern). That is what prayer actually is -- contact with God and a different sort of knowledge about reality -- but totally without fear. Only bliss, joy, ecstacy, hopefulness, gratitude, and love.

So, I think you have seen a glimpse of that perhaps, even in the DP. Yes?

 

[bright23]

Sojourner ? Maybe I'm just insane!!!

"Now, were you howling and curled up because nothing seemed real, or for some other reason?"

Stop, you're KILLING ME.

I was howling and curled up because I was experiencing an ACUTE EXISTENTIAL PANIC involving the instantaneous perception that EVERYTHING I HAVE EVER KNOWN ABOUT THIS UNIVERSE IS A COMPLETE LIE.

DP came on like a light switch for me. Literally, it just appeared, 15 minutes after experiencing my first ever Panic Attack, which is another type of experience entirely, though OBVIOUSLY directly related, causative you might say of the DP state.

There was no "getting into the fetal position" because I fell to the floor and screamed... a sound came out of the depths of myself that I never heard before. I was making the sound a baby makes when its terribly distressed, but I was an adult at this point, 21 years old in fact. So I guess I sounded like a deranged, wounded animal. YUP! That was me, hard to believe it looking back at it now.

Maybe this FORUM is not for me. Maybe there's a forum for ACUTE EXISTENTIAL PANIC with a side order of FETAL HOWLING. Perhaps.

Or maybe there's a lot of variations to this experience, no CLEAR DISTINCTIONS or ready pat DEFINITIONS.

Come on guys, I know there's at least one howler out there. Don't be shy now, or you'll make me feel all superior like I've been WAY more DPd than you! NYA-NYA-NYA!

"They have talked about seeing things in a fog, seeing objects but not really knowing their purpose, losing the normal sense of conventions that we usually don't think about, the arbitrariness of our bodies, and so forth."

My understanding is that these above symptoms are largely DR, with some DP in there on closer examination "seeing objects but not really knowing their purpose..." that to me is a DP effect

What are your symptoms Sojourner? I don't recall them off hand.

 

[Sojourner]

Bright,

I'm sorry, but I started laughing halfway through your post!!!

My "DP/DR" was a feature of my panic attack only. Never had a panic attack until May 20 or so. The DP kind of reminded me of a few fleeting moments in therapy when I would zone out to a place for a little while and tell my therapist that it seemed I was both myself and an outside observer of myself and that it was an odd perception. It would just be remarked on and then stop. So it wasn't a problem.

But with the panic attacks, before I knew what they were, the word "depersonalization" came to me. I have no idea where I heard it, but that's what I typed into Google and how I found this site.

I don't have any DP/DR unless I have a panic attack. In fact, the two symptoms of intense fear of death and things seeming unreal are equal for me in a panic attack. So for me they are connected.

I only howl when I'm depressed, like I was yesterday. But I can't howl too loudly or my neighbors might start wondering what kind of pets I have in here.

What you describe -- nothing you know is true -- is what I feel in a panic attack along with my imminent demise. So, your DP is my panic attack. You've managed to refine the experience (how talented you are!) into two separate ones, but for me it's just one and it sux. Now, at the first nanosecond of a twinge that one's coming, I eat an Ativan. Had one last night and one tonight.

Talked to my doc today and we agreed that my body might have been saying 250 is too much, so I'm taking 200 mg Zoloft. I had a great day. ; ) We'll see how I am by Friday.

I'm one of those few who see DP/DR and panic attacks as being on a single spectrum.

It's really hard to think that our bodies are trying to help us, isn't it, when it is so scary -- scarier than any possible horror movie or fiction that can be imagined. It's inexplicable, but I know are all talking about the identical awfulness. We say enough words and each of us goes, "Holy spit, man, this joy is universal!!!"

 

[Sojourner]

But I do know what you mean by the fear of insanity -- that's what a panic attack is for me, along with the fear of imminent death. The feelings are so alien that I certainly did feel I was going insane.

Oh, and another thing. Last October 29, I *did* have a panic attack -- that was the first. And I went to the emergency room and I said "Please help me, please help me over and over and over." I was terrified and thought I was losing my mind.

They said to me, "You're just a little anxious." Did EKG etc.

Gave me a shot of ativan and in 20 minutes I was walking home feeling as good as new.

Yes, insanity seems to be what I was IN, not that it was pursuing me, but I was THERE already.

This should be how we execute murderers, don't you think?

 

[Martinelv]

Don't get me started on this. I'm feeling very ill today so I'll keep it brief....... :evil: :evil: :evil:

No, we are not enlightened. End of story.

 

[falling_free]

I'm wondering if anyone feels sometimes like they are haunted. I am usually afraid of the dark, afraid of ghosts and monsters and all of the other things that live in the shadows that most children outgrow but I never did.

Yes , but only by my repressed uncouniocus lah blah blah blah you get my drift

 

[Guest]

All human beings are living a lie. We all entertain a subjective truth that we accept as Universal Truth because to do otherwise is too threatening to our sense of importance. But that does NOT mean that the Einsteinian structure of real time and space is an illusion. It is the very real "house" upon which our subjective wallpaper and decorations color our individual views.

All human beings are being governed by some OTHER force. But it's not magic and it's not supernatural. It's their own Unconscious.

When highly precarious defense structures (like some of us here have) create personality types who INSIST on believing they are in control of themselves 24/7 100 per cent....those two truths above are traumatic.

The Trauma is SO threatening that many of us run from the two SIMPLE facts above: (i) that much more is subjective than we like to admit and that (ii) we are not really in control of our own actions and motives because we're run by our Unconscious more often than not.

IN RUNNING we invent bizarre delusions and false magical beliefs that are a thousand times MORE scary than those two simple truths, but we somehow find that wackiness preferable in our regressed states.

We create SyMBOLS for those two truths such as:
Nothing is what I thought it was in reality;
I do not really exist at all;
I am not in control of my own mind;
I am not livnig in a real world.

Those DELUSIONS of being special or enlightened (or likewise, haunted or possessed) are COMPENSATORY fantasies that distract us from the two very simple truths above that we are loathe to face.

We start to sense that much of what runs us is OLD stuff, memories, re-enactments from the past, things that look like they are current, but are really just old news. All the power and forthrightness we THOUGHT we exerted daily is really just a bad re-run being channeled by the Unconscious? How humiliating, so we invent "The Matrix" delusions that we are not living in the REAL reality, and instead are at the effect of a sinister Universal conspiracy. Get it?

Notice, please that all these false and magical beliefs always revolve around US being VERY very important. Either I am the ultimate victim of something evil, or I am the ultimate KNOWER who has been granted special insight. Again, that is compensatory narcissism - none of us ever have delusions that we're just not too important in the big picture but still real, lol
Don't fall for the fancy and terrifying fantasies your mind makes up in the name of refusing to face the reality that is too challenging to your ego to swallow.

Reality is bearable, guys...we're just insulted by it.

Peace,
J

 

[Kelson12]

Shit...if this is enlightenment....then I no longer want to be enlightened!

 

[bright23]

Janine ?

Is this a chapter out of your new book? If not it should be. All of us should make a hard copy of the this entry and read it every day for a year until we fully get it. You might be able to "cure" a few of the less stubborn of us with this entry.

Thanks for your clear insight.

 

[Lilymoonchild]

Ok, not that I think I'm the next Buddha or anything, but really, for those of you who say this is not an enlightened state, think about it for a second.
The Matrix, for example. There were those who live happily in the Matrix for their entire lives, and never question it. Then there were those who knew, with every fiber of their beings, that the Matrix was wrong, and they fought like hell to get out of it. And some of those who fought to get out of it, ended up fighting to get back in. No, I'm not saying I believe the Matrix to be real, but who here can honestly say they didn't sort of wonder for a while after seeing the movie?
I feel like the Matrix kind of shows my struggles with religion, though. My entire life, I tried to mold myself into what religion wanted me to be, because I was told my entire life that the religion was reality. When the religion didn't feel right, I didn't question the religion, I questioned what was wrong with me. I fought like hell to be what religion/reality said I should be. I finally figured out that I wasn't the problem, religion was. It took me 6 years to get to where I was ok not being a part of the religion. Occassionally I still wish I could go back and not know what I know now.
Enlightenment isn't happiness. It isn't even necessarily peace. It is simply knowledge of a truth that others don't have, or knowing that the truth that is presented isn't, in fact, truth.
I think DP is a truth that the rest of the world doesn't have. I just don't know what that truth is.

 

[Lilymoonchild]

K, I totally barely skimmed Janine's reply before I said the one above. She pretty well asnwered to everything I just said before I said it.

 

[Milan]

Before DP/DR chop wood carry water. After DP/DR chop wood carry water :wink: