[Guest]

Many psychotherapists and psychoanalysts categorize anxiety in one of two ways.

There is Signal Anxiety which is what most people think of when they hear the ?A? word. Signal Anxiety has to do with danger, real or imagined. It?s what we experience in reaction to SOME potential threat out there in the external world ? something that is dangerous to our sense of physical safety or emotional security. The generally agreed upon basic fears usually center around (i) fear of injury, death; (ii) fear of loss of love, or (iii) fear of abandonment (literal loss of some important other person through death, rejection, etc.).

Then there is the OTHER kind of anxiety, and it?s been my experience that this is the one most of us here (with DP) are experiencing. It?s Annihilation Anxiety, and it isn?t covered in the Signal Anxiety category. It?s not about some real danger, but about a near-traumatic terror of losing Self, or Identity or what they call ?Self-Cohesion.? The experience of the fear is almost pre-verbal. There is not an identifable danger or threat, but an inner impending disaster that belies description.

A very good psychoanalytic writer named Marvin Hurvich writes a lot about Annihilation Anxiety (and its connection to nightmares and to altered states of consciousness). Part of his definition is ?an imminent fear of being overwhelmed, of falling apart, dissolving, suffocating, going crazy, losing total control?? and he came up with an Inventory (called the HEI, standing for Hurvich Experience Inventory) that is a very basic, rough measurement tool for assessing someone?s potential level of Annihilation Anxiety.

Thought you guys might enjoy (or maybe that?s the wrong word, lol). There are specific ways of scoring it, etc. but I do not have permission to post the entire thing, so I?m only going to paste some of his basic questions here ? I want you to see how MUCH you?ll recognize yourselves here (even though you might not relate to more generic phobias/anxiety symptoms). My point here is not for you to say ?oh, no..I?ve ?GOT? annihilation anxiety!? lol. It?s just to notice that there are very different FORMS of fear/anxiety states ? and when dealing with something as bizarre as DP, often we have to look at much more Regressive types of mental states than ?regular anxiety? refers to.

(test takers are supposed to ?rate? these according to frequency, but I?m just posting the actual questions as an excerpt).

from the Hurvich Experience Inventory:

1. I feel I could shatter into bits.
2. I am very afraid of fear.
3. I am not sure who I really am.
4. I worry about my survival.
5. I feel like I am destroyed as a person.
6. Experiencing strong emotions frightens me.
7. I am afraid of getting emotionally close to others.
8. I feel terror and panic.
9. My body feels like it doesn?t belong to me.
10. I think the world is coming to an end.
11. I had frightening nightmares as a child.
12. I feel the dread of dying at any moment.
13. I feel I have more than one self.
14. I feel intruded on, mentally or physically.
15. I keep searching for an identity I don?t quite have.
16. I have a fear of catastrophe.
17. I need someone to reassure me when I become afraid.
18. I worry about my physical health.
19. I feel I can?t pull myself together.
20. I am frightening dreams.
21. Even as a child I was afraid of dying.
22. I have a fear of falling in space.
23. I feel anxious when I?m left alone.
24. It?s hard to get over something that makes me nervous.
25. I feel like I?m being overwhelmed.
26. I fear getting swept up and lost in another person.
27. I fear loss of control of myself.
28. I fear being unable to think or act.
29. I feel I can?t cope with things.
30. I fear being abandoned.
[excepted from the Hurvich Experience Inventory]

Can anyone relate?
(they were ALL me, lol?I?m not kidding)
Peace,
Janine

 

[Da'Burgh]

Yes, annihilation is me, I suppose.

 

[ShyTiger]

You know i have been getting help for my anxiety for as long as i can remember and no one has mentioned this to me-Thankyou Janine! This explains alot. Question- are the ways of treating this the same as for signall anxiety? Is there any books or places i can learn more about this?
I relate to almost all the above. Thanx for this great post.

 

[Guest]

i feel a number of those, i think one of the best ways i can describe it is that i feel out of this life. Its like i'm peeping into life through an ajar door, and any second now that door could shut and i'd be locked out.

 

[Sunshine Spirit]

Thanks for posting that, Janine.

I was only taught how Anxiety worked, by going into detail about the flight or fight response...the rush of adrenalin to all muscles...etc..

However, once I realised 'why' and 'how' my mind and body were reacting, I immediately started my recovery, never again having an attack as bad as one I'd suffered prior to my comprehension of it.

Obviously, my fear of 'the unknown' had made my anxiety that much worse.

 

[Martinelv]

Ah, what would we do without categories. It'd be mayhem on the streets.

I yearn for annihilation. To be less than dust. Beautiful.

 

[Isobel]

Thank you Janine

It feels a relief just to be able to put a name to it

(at leat i can identify with something now, lol) ha ha

does everyone have it, or just 'dp'ers' ?

fear of inner collapse, yep thats me, always has been

ive wobbled in the past, but never collapsed unitl dp kicked in

 

[Guest]

Yes, Janine, I can relate. I had 21 on 30 answers.

And others?

A.

 

[Guest]

Remember, like evil Martin pointed out, "Categories" are only man-made concepts - it's not that different KINDS of anxiety mean you have or do not "have" something (like a disease), it's just ways of trying to better understand the SPECIFICS of the ideas and thoughts that are sourcing the mental pain.

Most "cure your anxiety" treatments are aimed at Signal Anxiety - as someone above said, the "fight or flight" concept. Annihilation Anxiety is not the same fear - it's not a question of fighting or fleeing - no one to fight but Self and nothing to FLEE from but Self. We're frozen. In fear.

The only practical use for knowing Annihilation Anxiety versus Signal Anxiety might be in what kind of therapy approach to seek, but that is different for each person. For ME, the psychoanalytic model is the only one that addressed states like Dp and self-annihilation fears, etc. ("deeper" concepts, symptoms that are very regressive in nature, rather than panic attacks or phobias, etc.). But not everyone likes analysis, and it's very time consuming, takes a long time, etc....

I think I posted this just to be sure you guys realize that the KIND of fears we have are not the same as "fight or flight" anxiety. I always felt "left out' of the general anxiety descriptions - and yet I would still describe myself to doctors as "very anxious' etc....giving them no real clue about what TYPES of fears I had.

We need to be very specific when we seek treatment. You can't just say "I get very anxious all day" and expect anyone to really understand. A GOOD doctor will keep asking you to tell him more, but most will not. They'll THINK they know what you mean, or they'll think you don't even know what you mean either....and then they say "try an ssri - it's for anxiety" and there you are.

Fear and sadness make up anxiety depression. But how YOU in particular feel fear and sadness will be the keys to help you unlock the mind set that did this to you. Be very specific about the kinds of thoughts and ideas you have - they tell about YOU, rather than just "I have anxious thoughts" See my point here?

 

[agentcooper]

hmmm...i have had some of these...i think a lot of people experience many of these in their lives but i suppose someone with dp would experience them to an unreasonable degree.

the numbers i can identify with: 11,15,17,22,27,28

hmmm i guess more than a few, eh?

 

[Guest]

Yeah, the key to whether or not the questions point to ANnihiation Anxiety is the (i) severity of the experiences, and (ii) the frequency.

For me, over half of them were crippling - I'd think about those fears DAILy and often more than once or twice a day. I'd DO things depending on how fearful I felt, I'd be at the EFFECT of those thoughts and ideas.

I think deep down we all KNOW if we're plagued by thoughts, or just entertain them casually. The tricky part is that we pretend we're not - we act like 'oh, yeah, well..but I can handle that stuff..it's just the DP that I can't handle"

They're all related.

You can't treat ONLY dp, without dealing with the underlying parts of our thinking and personalities that GOT us that way.

Naturally, that's not true for everyone. Not everybody has dp as a result of psychological issues. But.....trust me, more do than think they do.

We say to ourselves "well, okay...but I was ALWAYS that way, and I wasn't nutty before - it's only the DP that is doing this to me, not my silly little thinknig, etc." Got news for you. You may have ALWAYS done and thought a certain kind of way - but once DP hits, once a breakdown rears its head, we need to clean house. The jig is up, and whatever we were "getting away" with before is long gone as an option.

Peace,
Janine

 

[CECIL]

Clarification on number 10: Is this talking about the feeling that the world is about to end in the next 10 minutes, or wild and crazy philosophies that the world may be ending, say, December 23 2012? Or both?

 

[Sunshine Spirit]

29 out of the list of 30 applied to me. The one I didn't think applied to me, was number 10: I think the world is coming to an end.

I'd be interested to know (from this list) what other DP sufferer's worst fear was/is and also what the most frequent fear/symptom was/is. I found the latter extremely difficult, as it took me 20 minutes to decide between five of the questions. Anyway, mine are as follows;-

Worst Fear: I fear loss of control of myself (Number 27).

Most frequently thought about fear/symptom: I feel intruded on, mentally and physically. (Number 14).

 

[Dreamer]

No eyepoking, just an observation. I see a number of these symptoms in myself, but a good number not at all.
:shock: 8)
Much of what I identify with is the symptoms of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and over the years, my fears have subsided -- the existential ones. It's only when I have a BIG increase in the DP/DR do I feel essentially -- terror, and a fear that I will be completely incapacitated. Also my fears of abandonment come from reality. Abandonment occurred in my childhood, and was constantly threatened by my mother.

I think this is a subtype that applies to SOME not all DP sufferers and even some of the statements, I can't say they occur as an adult, even though I have chronic DP/DR, and they subsided with time, therapy, medication.

My mantra is still, and is most comforting, when I say -- "This is an illness. I may have to live with it. I can't believe I will be disabled or I will give up. The bad episodes will pass, PLEASE GOD, LOL."

I see DP/DR as part and parcel of the fight/flight response and my GAD. Also DP/DR occurs in so many other mental illnesses. I see it as a perceptual/cognitive disruption.

End of eyepoking, just my two cents.

In the spirit of healthy debate :mrgreen:
Peace,
D

Oh, these are what I identify with. I don't connect with the more delusional symptoms. I connect with trigger anxiety (which we discussed at length in DBT/CBT).... again the fight or flight response in extreme and having become chronic. I also really never had panic attacks.

8. I feel terror and panic. (Only when seriously DP/DR)

9. My body feels like it doesn?t belong to me. (DP/DR)

11. I had frightening nightmares as a child. (A few, more as an adult which have been related to my crazy relationship with my mother)

16. I have a fear of catastrophe. (GAD symptom)

17. I need someone to reassure me when I become afraid. (Helps calm me down. Many normal people feel this way)

18. I worry about my physical health. (GAD/hypochondriasis)

19. I feel I can?t pull myself together. (Fear of disability)

20. I have frightening dreams. (More as a child, some as adult, wax and wane)

21. Even as a child I was afraid of dying. (GAD worry symptom)

23. I feel anxious when I?m left alone. (Sometimes. More again as a child. Abandonment fears. Fear of exacerbation of symptoms without support nearby)

24. It?s hard to get over something that makes me nervous. (GAD)

25. I feel like I?m being overwhelmed. (GAD)

28. I fear being unable to think or act. (Serious DP/DR)

29. I feel I can?t cope with things. (Serious DP/DR... feeling lousy over being chronically ill)

30. I fear being abandoned. (Realistic, based on dysfunctional childhood where this actually happened and was threatened.)

A fascinating theory though, but I find there are several subsets mixed in here -- some separate disorders mixed together.

 

[Dreamer]

Some of these symptoms I really never connected with. They do fit with "annhilation" SP! But they seem to come from other illnesses, not specificially GAD or DP/DR for me.

The symptoms below sound more delusional, even moving towards the psychotic. Not saying anyone here is psychotic! But these symptoms seem to be again in another category.

EDIT: trying to explain why I don't connect with these

1. I feel I could shatter into bits. (Just a fear of "disappearing" - vision is more "fragmented" in DR)
2. I am very afraid of fear. (I'm afraid of feeling my symptoms increase)
3. I am not sure who I really am. (DID?)
5. I feel like I am destroyed as a person. (More than DP/DR)
6. Experiencing strong emotions frightens me. (Nope)
7. I am afraid of getting emotionally close to others. (? Narcissistic?)
10. I think the world is coming to an end. (Well GAD I guess)
12. I feel the dread of dying at any moment. (Nope)
13. I feel I have more than one self. (DID? Psychotic as written? Am I misinterpreting the description?)
14. I feel intruded on, mentally or physically. (Unclear. Literally, or in a more psychotic way? Different from boudnary violations?)
15. I keep searching for an identity I don?t quite have. (DID?/other)
26. I fear getting swept up and lost in another person. (More delusional/psychotic?)

EDIT: I realized just now, that some of these statements can be interpreted in more than one way. But I express a variety of emotions (sometimes in an innapropriate manner - Borderline).

I have always had a solid sense of "Dreamer", my goals in life, what I wanted to do with my life. I always had/have an "identity". More than one self moves into the DID category.

Emotional closeness -- )always have done that as best I could under the DP/DR circumstances -- this would be a narcissistic trait?, inability to trust, love, etc. I have some trust problems, but have had many close friends and intimate relationships, screwed up as they've been. I crave emotional closeness. Seek it out.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
These in particular I don't connect with. And Janine, not saying you didn't experience this, but I feel you had a different experience.

We are all unique.
I'm afraid this is an eyepoke, and it isn't intended to be. :shock:
8)
Peace,
The Hairball of Generalized Anxiety and chronic IDIOTIC miserable DP/DR. No friggin' letup. But GAD is with me all the time, and recently more disabling. Constant worry of catastrophes in my life. "Everything will not happen as I need thigns to, want them to, I will fail, etc."

 

[Dreamer]

PPPS! Forgive, and I keep getting kicked offline again. Thank heavens for "notepad"

... some of the points I identify with, can vary. I have gone through several years of serious nightmares over my mother. Fighting with her. Like so many lists (reminds me of the MMPI for instance) -- I can't answer "Yes" or "No" without elaborating.

My explanations for the above don't really explain my overall functioning.

And for whatever it's worth, I was far more frightened as an adolescent when the DP hit full force, though I was always anxious and depressed. I know how to deal with the chronicity better. I can function on certain levels very well, others poorly.

I can't respond to all of those points (where I describe GAD) very well.

Janine you know me. I am essentially a Hairball of Anxiety.
Oh HELL all I do is explain, LOL
I'm done now! 8)
I just see two different problems lumped into one category there. One more "neruotic", one more towards the "psychotic" or "delusional" and others having to do with yes, narcissism!!! 8) and with me, some having to do with Borderline traits, I think.

 

[Guest]

Dear Hairball, I just wish you'd RESPOND to my posts.

grin

Actually, those are some excellent observations (as usual). And I totally agree that each person is different. I also think STRONGLY that many (not all) of the dp/dr sufferers have fears sourced in strong annihilation fears. Many have schizoid (NOT schizophrenia, people, lol) disturbances and many have deeper narcissistic states that freak them out when those fantasies are not building them up (that was me)

But yes, it's NOT all dp people. And that needs to be said.

HOwever....grin grin.....IF I were to try to connect your responses to this theory, I would wonder how much you use Obsessiveness as a guard against fears of self-annihilation. Maybe the personality you developed (higher level than many, more neurotic than narcissistic) relies on the obsessional traits - and they stand you in good stead.

But this is just a questionnaire developed by a psychoanalyst with lots of experience treating patients like myself. It's THEORY, not empirical truth. You tickle me because you approach things from such a scientist viewpoint (evidence? grin) and I KNOW there are no clear cut answers. This kind of questionnaire is a guideline, not a diagnostic. And truth be told, I'd say that the vast majority of all mental states inquirey serves best as a guideline. It's not nuts and bolts science; it's theoretical science.

At any rate, love your responses. Love your posts. Moved yet? Missed you on here.
Peace,
Janine

 

[Monkeydust]

As soon as I saw the words "schizoid disturbances" I just had to go all hypochoncdiac on you.

I've come back from exploring the whole run of personality disorders to come to the conclusion that I've probably got a bit of both narcissistic and schizoid (or avoidant) personality traits - if that's possible to have.

However I absolutely resent the term "personality disorder". It makes me want to be sick. Whilst certain traits might be somewhat maladaptive, I don't feel that there are objectively "good" or "bad" personalities in the way that the term suggests. I think I'll just call them "traits" or "features" instead.

Another question: is it possible to "treat" these personality issues, or are you just stuck with them?

Also, if it is possible to "treat" them, is it possible that if you're aware you've got them you can work on the problem as you recognize it and overcome it without in-depth therapy?

 

[enigma]

I was diagnosed as schizoid back in '94 (I try to do myself in, and they decide I'm avoidant).

e

 

[Dreamer]

But this is just a questionnaire developed by a psychoanalyst with lots of experience treating patients like myself. It's THEORY, not empirical truth. You tickle me because you approach things from such a scientist viewpoint (evidence? grin) and I KNOW there are no clear cut answers. This kind of questionnaire is a guideline, not a diagnostic. And truth be told, I'd say that the vast majority of all mental states inquirey serves best as a guideline. It's not nuts and bolts science; it's theoretical science.

Yup, agreed. Theoretical vs. my CSI evidence collecting 8) They ARE different.

I will say, I need to be in control ... because I fear things, all things, will go out of control. In real life they have -- "As Dreamer's World Turns" -- and my worrywort mindset and catastrophizing is SO conditioned into me.

The thing is I KNOW that I cannot be in control of anything. That again goes back to the DBT and Buddhist Mindfulness. It is SO difficult for me. It may? be that my need for control is a postivie thing, yet it causes me SO much anxiety. I sweat every detail. It really hinders me. In that sense I am confused how this helps hold me together. I seem to think I need it to hold myself together but I'd rather not be on Red Alert all the time.

I realize in the past month I have had very little joy, or sense of relaxation. Ever vigilent. Too much shit hitting the proverbial fan, LOL.

And I NEED to be a scientist. In a sense I need the tangible. And again, I guess I can't escape the fact that I grew up in a family of two doctors. DOCTORS WERE GODS. SCIENCE RULED.

It's part of me. It really is.

I really wish I'd gone into forensics. I'd be so damned happy as a CSI, and even happier solving a case with my diligent evidence collecting, LOL.

The Ramseys are innocent woman! :mrgreen:
"Quid pro quo, Clarice .... " 8)
Peace,
D