[grant_r]

In light of the recent hype in the U.S. about our upcoming presidential election in Nov. 2004, I'm opening this topic to discussion of politics and the candidates. This is not only for U.S. citizens, but to everyone on the forum. I'm interested in everyone's opinions. Who do you think should win and why? This will not only affect America, but the world, too.

George W. Bush/ Dick Cheney(VP)

or John Kerry/ John Edwards(VP)

Personally, I'm for Kerry, but basically only since I hate George!

Who will you vote for?

-Grant with an "R"

 

[Guest]

Same vote.

Voting for Kerry and wildly advocating Kerry not because I like Kerry but because I despise Bush.

 

[Dreamer]

Man, the lesser of two evils is all I can say. But I will probably vote for Bush for only one reason. We are in a completely different world since 9/11. The US is forever changed, the world is forever changed.

We've gotta' go global, we can't be insular/isolationist and yet we've got to do something about our out-of-control immigration, etc., and we're sitting on the fence.

I realize the country desperately needs attention internally, but I'm afraid of changing horses (or whatever hoofed creature you'd like to call Bush) in mid-stream. Iraq is still seriously unstable, the Middle East is a mess. I think changing to a man who has no experience (not saying Bush is great, but he is the incumbent and has been in this mess from the get-go) in international relations.

At least Bush has people around him who have working relationships on one level or another with many of the troubled countries in the world. I have a bad feeling that Colin Powell is going to head for the hills though after this mess.

I vote for continuation of leadership... "stability" ... a sense that we are going to barrel ahead. I don't know how Kerry will handle this. To me he's an unknown quantity. At least we know the good, bad and ugly about Bush.

It's a scary situation. But I'm looking at the global picture and international relations.

Very tough call. No one slap me, but plenty of people thought Reagan was full of shit to call The Soviet Union's bluff, but his persistence dissolved the former Soviet Union.

Also, forgive, but Michael Moore has a lot of powerful propaganda -- and is a demon in terms of misrepresentation. I suggest reading the actual 9/11 Commission report. The history of Al Quaida. I'm still struggling through the book.

As I always say... things are not as simple as they appear.
I would never want to be the president of the United States.
Never.

Peace,
D :shock:
Only time will tell.

 

[Guest]

Im following the news of the Conventions here in Holland with much interest and much amazement. The amazement especially I have with the way the Republicans demonstrate their campaign. I sat here watching in disbelief when several spoke (Arnold Schwarzenegger, and the democratic guy, who now has switched camps, probably because he had some quarrels with Kerry and get back at him or a personal vendetta to fight).
I dont know, but it all looks so damn hypocritical and the pattriotism is sickening to me, im getting Nazi vibrations.
We in Holland dont have any of that pattriotism, we simply think its foolish.
I cant believe the level of hypocrisy and the Republican americans' blindness.

Polls say that in different European countries (France, Germany, Spain) 80% of people would vote for Kerry. I despise Bush too. I cant see the man, I cant stand the man, most hypocritical president ever, its so obvious he only cares about power and uses everything to get it. Im amazed that the republicans dont look through his politics. A child can see it.

O yes and then the 'who's First wife is more popular'-polls. I heard that Mrs Bush is more popular than Mrs Kerry. Come on, give me a fucking break!
If I could I would vote for Kerry.

HAD to get this off my chest! Hope I didnt offend any americans here.

 

[Guest]

Kerry.

Kerry seems to be much more thoughtful and calm.
Bush behaves like a brain amputated moron, and it seems he always has to get his thoughts from elsewhere but from within himself. That explains why he talks shit all the time.

 

[Dreamer]

Dear Wendy,
One thing about the media. It is biased in EVERY country. We've learned that from our OWN media and Al-Jazeera among other things. Reading various papers here in the US will give you a million different views.

What to believe?

Also, I hate the fact we have 4-year terms. I believe in the UK it's 6. This is like having a teaparty in the middle of a .... WAR, LOL. It is all pomp and circumstance, which yes, IS the US.

The reason for all the Patriotism here.... we are a country of immigrants. California for instance has an Hispanic majority, a growing Asian population (Japanese, Chinese, Korean) you name it. The reason for the flag, the patriotism is to remind a DIVERSE community that we are "ONE".

That is our way of "unifying". Having been here my whole life, I don't find it bothersome, but I'm not waving the flag myself.

I hate the race to reelection. And it's happening at a horrible time. It's crap, I agree. We may be changing a number of things in our political system including the tenure of officials. We may change our voting system from electoral college to popular vote.

We acknowledge tremendous flaws in our government, but we aren't alone. The case is the same in ALL countries. And we aren't the worst.

I am terrifed of terrorism. The story of the Chechyn rebels in Russia who have just recently slaughtered 150 women in children -- in that school hostage business.... oh my GOD.

And I have one question... I don't know what we were supposed to do about terrorism. I don't know if we should have invaded Iraq... our country is divided on that. But not even including the invasion of Afhanistan and Iraq, what should we have done in response to 9/11?

Also, our connection with the Saudis. We are not alone in that. Every country in the world needs oil, not just the US, but that wasn't the reason for the invasion. The French, the British, many countries, our allies, wanted Hussein OUT. He was the worst of all evils in the Middle East.

We miscalculated the need for extra manpower to police the state after the collapse of his dictatorship.

I'm as confused as anyone else about all of this, my concern is still "hawkish", and I don't know if Kerry will be as powerful as an international liason with other countries. I may be wrong.

Bush doesn't come across well at all. He's a horrible public speaker. He doesn't always follow what his advisors want.

I still worry about Kerry. It's in my gut. That's how I'm voting.

Also, the US is forever changed. We will need to sacrifice a lot of liberties in order to control terrorism here. Osama Bin Laden has indeed declared a Holy War against America. What would make him happy? We should let Saudi Arabia collapse under its welfare state, hand it over to the terrorists, as well as Israel. These two countries are our strongest allies in the Middle East. Again, the lesser of any evil. That's the game of politics, and EVERYONE is in someone's back pocket.

A sorry thing.

Peace,
D :shock:

Peace,
D :shock:

 

[Dreamer]

Oh, forgot about this, but aside from looking at the Al-Jazeera website, our own news (TV/print) I also see "The National" from Canada and we get the BBC on our Public Broadcasting station. It is astounding how slanted each news story is. Completely different views of the same story. And who is right? I don't know.

Also, during the Sydney Olympics I had a Brit visiting me in L.A. He complained bitterly about our "exclusive coverage of Americans and no one else". Well, this year, I watched the Canadian coverage and the US coverage. Canadians cover Canadians, Americans cover Americans... in that sense countries, all countries have patriotism. It is part of our identity, a unifying force. And of course, why wouldn't each country be interested in their own teams? Makes sense to me.

I am NOT saying the US is "better" than ANY other country, though I'd say I'm lucky to not live in some terribly impoverished, war-torn, countries. Europeans and Americans are fortunate I think. Each country/each system has it's good and bad based on YEARS of history and interaction with other countries/peoples.

History will tell how this election pans out. I have no answers and am only voting with my gut. The country here is divided obviously. Very.

Best,
D :shock:

 

[grant_r]

Wendy, I definitely agree with you that the US is the most hypocritical nation in the world and we don't care (as a whole.)

Dreamer, I personally feel that Michael Moore is a long list of word I can't list here for many reasons. Not only is he so full of himself that he can't see past his hippy glasses and haircut, but his total bias and completely one-sided "patriotism" has led him to lie about everything in his "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 to the point of cutting video clips without letting it be known that they were spliced. One example was Charleton Heston's speech about Columbine, spliced with a clip from a year later in an NRA meeting where he said the motto of the club, "From my cold dead fingers." Apparently Moore zoomed in on Heston's face to cover up his shirt from view to not reveal that it was a different color.

I didn't actually see this, by the way, I just heard a report about it on the radio.

Here's my opinion on Bush's actions pertaining to 9/11: He was right in going to "war" with the terrorists in Afghanistan. We most certainly needed to pay attention to that part of the world more. But the time he spent there was pushing it. And then to go to Iraq to find "Weapons of mass destruction" and his plot to flaunt the "evil-doers" was just WAY too far. Though the taking down of Saddam was good, practically the only positive in the whole happening.

Now it's time for the Commander-in Chief to turn his attention to more important things, like domestic policy. And keep an eye out for terrorism and threats, not to keep an army, a navy, the marines, billions of dollars and the world's distraction out for them.

This is just part of what I believe, so don't hold me to it. I could argue for hours over it.

In politics, even though it's all opinions, there are rights and wrongs. Even though 100% of the time they're "wrong"s. I also would not want to be president, but at least the person who is should do SOMETHING right.

-Grant with an "R" (for Really un-Republican.)

 

[GavinD]

I can't comment too much on this, because my knowledge of what these two stand for is hampered by the fact that I cant watch their electioneering for more than five minutes without being shocked to the point of being sick or amused to the point of pant-wetting.

Shocked about just how ridiculously childish the whole thing seems. I'm disillusioned enough by our British political system, but this mickey mouse bullsh1t puts things into perspective. I honestly cannot believe how any intelligent american can take this nonsense seriously, I mean they're arguing about who's tougher than who...it's all soundbites and flag waving. What about policy?

The boundaries between our Labour Party and Fasc....sorry, Conservative Party may have become blurred over the past decade, but at least you know you've got a choice between a moderate left-wing party and a right-wing party. And then there's the lib dems who are like Old Labour socialists...the only party with the guts to admit they'll put up tax to fund our schools and hospitals. But what do you have to choose between there...or at least what differences are being made apparent by their electioneering conferences? Who'd win in a fight? Crikey, next they'll be comparing sizes of their manhoods....I wouldn't be surprised.

Americans....do me a favour. Make a positive choice and spoil your ballot. Your country was founded on good principles by true political idealists...now it's politics serve as nothing but good comedy for supercilious europeans like me.

g

 

[Guest]

Gavin D, where on earth do politics actually make sense?

Be it germany, france, uk, or what there is, including usa.
It's just all a big show for idiots and these idiots are the people that are governed by the morons moderating the show.

I mean voting for one's government is considered a sign of maturity, but where on hell is the maturity regarding politics. I mean it is idiotic to a point where I don't even really care anymore.....it just makes me sick.

 

[Dreamer]

Dear Grant, my son! :wink:

I think we really agree. And I agree with everyone here who says politics is a bunch o' bunk. And the thing is I can't really argue as I don't know enough to argue. As I said, from the little knowledge I have, I simply feel we should maintain some continuity in leadership right now. My gut feeling.

Problem is, get ten people in a room and you'll never get them to agree on everything. Get every country in the world interacting and, well it's amazing we're doing as well as we are, and that's pretty frightening, LOL.

I tend to believe that US government, as it was originally conceived, gives power to our leaders to um..... no memory ..... OK, control the finances of the country, control the military, and legislate at the highest levels -- Supreme Court, etc.. Oh and keep the mail going etc. What is it Executive, Legislative, and Judicial.

I believe that less government is more, basing this on the horrible failures of communism, dictatorships, etc. We make horrible mistakes everyday, and we are wrapped up in so much red tape it's impossible to see.

And here's the odd thing. In THEORY each form of government, in the IDEAL is peachy, but it never operates as it was initially conceived.

And Gavin? Who said this. I simply can't watch Bush on TV AT ALL. I read what the news says. I can't stand the guy. He makes me feel humiliated for our country. We do look like a bunch of idiots.

I don't think either Kerry or Bush have any negative ulterior motives. Bush is awkward in communicating, and Kerry the same as far as I'm concerned.

We need a domestic overhaul, but right now I believe we need to continue to focus on the Middle East, not break whatever continuity there is.

In Peace.
I don't really argue politics. I like to understand it, but to me, neurology is easier to understand!

L,
D :shock:

 

[Guest]

Prediction: Bush will win.

Know why?

I bet they catch Bin Laden shortly before the election.
Coincidence? You decide.

But mark my conspiratorial words, grin

J

 

[GavinD]

I, you are kind of right. Politics is all a show now to one degree or another wherever in the world you are. There's too much spin and too much style over substance. But that doesn't mean I dislike or distrust all politicians. After all, we're all politicians in one way or another, because politics permeates almost every aspect of life, we just don't get paid for making our political views known. And I believe that there are many politicians in the house of commons who are still conviction politicians rather than career politicians. David Blunkett, Charles Kennedy, Robin Cook...even Tony Blair. And on the other side....err, this is hard....Anne Widicombe, even though I strongly oppose everything she stands for. And I'm sure there's many on Capitol Hill too. It's just there's too much spin and soundbites and hollow promises made just for the purpose of staying in power. Sometimes these people forget that their purpose is to serve their country first and their party second.

I guess I disagree with Dreamer when she says less government is more. But that's because I don't begrudge the size of our government when I receive my incapacity benefit or when I go to hospital for tests and don't have to worry about picking up the tab. If I didn't have these safety nets that the government supplies then God knows what state I'd be in now.
I know it's the American way that people are supposed to stand on their own two feet and are free from government interference...but in my opinion that can only create freedom for those with the means. For those who are born poor or who suffer some cruel stroke of fate like a nervous breakdown or being laid off (look at all those poor bastards in Ohio who are having to scrounge for food handouts like people in a 3rd world country) then that kind of freedom is not THEIR freedom....it's the rich's freedom from responsibility to the welfare of their fellow countrymen. That kind of freedom is the poor's slavery. Only 'inteference' from the government can be the lifeline for people like them (and like me for that matter). And if the price I pay for it is filling in endless forms to hand to countless overpaid bureaucrats who run these organs of the government, then so be it. I'd rather be driven crazy by them every once in a while than driven hungry and destitute.

g

 

[dalailama15]

And I have one question... I don't know what we were supposed to do about terrorism. I don't know if we should have invaded Iraq... our country is divided on that. But not even including the invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, what should we have done in response to 9/11?

Ah, dreamer, sweetheart.

I can speculate on what should have been done. A massive police action with all the full force and might of American strength and intelligence, in conjunction and cooperation with the full force, strength, and brain-power of the rest of the world (especially our European Allies?all equally vulnerable to this kind of atrocity) all directed at the people who actually did this horrible crime?Radical Islamic Fundamentalists (Bin Ladin and Al Quaida and similar organizations) and the people who funded them (Saudis) and harbored them (Afghanistan and Talaban)

What we got was an attack on Iraq.

Whatever you say about them, Iraqis, before the war, had not killed any Americans, had never voiced any desire to kill Americans, and Hussain?s government had no sympathy for Islamic fundamentalism.

How many Westerners had their heads chopped off in front of video cameras in Iraq before this war?

Attacking Iraq as a response to 9-11 makes the same sense as attacking Mexico as a response to Pearl Harbor.

The deaths of tens of thousands of people, the stirring up of more radical hatred of the U.S., the mobilizing of the religious fundamentalists (who were always the villain in this, not ever the secular despots like Sadam Hussain), needs a better rationale than ? we had to do something.

I would think anyone leaning toward Bush would have to have something that makes sense to them about why this war took place. The Bush team can not be let off the hook with excuses or explanations. If there are no solid reasons for something as serious as an unprovoked war, then the best explanation is that they manipulated the truth to get support for a war that had nothing to do with the terrorists who attacked the U.S.

If this explanation is not true, then there must be some other real, intellectually honest reasons. (That Iraq might have developted WMD, and then might have forged an alliqnce with the islamic fundamdntalists, then might have given them these weapons -- is not too strong or convincing) If these reasons aren't there then the Bush team must be taken out of power.

I have more but want to be slow and careful. Trying to persuade people (who are not already radical true-believers )who think they will vote for Bush to not vote for Bush is, to me now, the most important cause so far in my life.

 

[dalailama15]

But mark my conspiratorial words, grin

J

J I fear worse. Bush has said that God wanted him to be president, and this could make him extraordinarily reckless -- they are talking now about WMD and Iran; they are warning about more immanent attacks.

peter

 

[dalailama15]

Not only is he so full of himself that he can't see past his hippy glasses and haircut, but his total bias and completely one-sided "patriotism" has led him to lie about everything in his "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 to the point of cutting video clips without letting it be known that they were spliced.

And Grant, Moore is no hippy but a muckraker of working class origins. And Fahrenheit 9/11 was checked for factual error by the best fact-checking team in the world, the staff at the New Yorker. I would think that to discredit the film one would have to pick some specific data and show that it is wrong -- and there are lots and lots of hard claims here to work with. Moore's interperetations, his own theories, can be debated, but these are not presented as fact. Anyway,

peter

 

[Dreamer]

Peter and Grant, et al.
Per the Michael Moore debate, I have an excellent reference to a site which point by point discusses the manipulations in Moore's "documentary". I consider his work to be strictly propaganda.

If anyone's interested have a look at Fifty-nine Deceits in Farenheit 911 by David Kopel. He has a 4 page, point by point summary, and a 49 page PDF.

I suggest a far finer documentary, that DOCUMENTS, and doesn't have a personal agenda ... wonderful .... recommended by Janine -- "Capturing The Feinsteins". A dysfunctional family, and the pedophile witch-hunts of the 1980s. Compare the two and you will further understand the heavy left-wing bent of the Hollywood community. Also, many French found the Palm D'Or win embarrassing. (See articles in Le Monde, etc.)

http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

I love these discussions, but we need to be talking with each other. So difficult to "have a coversation" on the internet. Ticks me off.

Peace,
D :shock:

Not only is he so full of himself that he can't see past his hippy glasses and haircut, but his total bias and completely one-sided "patriotism" has led him to lie about everything in his "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 to the point of cutting video clips without letting it be known that they were spliced.

And Grant, Moore is no hippy but a muckraker of working class origins. And Fahrenheit 9/11 was checked for factual error by the best fact-checking team in the world, the staff at the New Yorker. I would think that to discredit the film one would have to pick some specific data and show that it is wrong -- and there are lots and lots of hard claims here to work with. Moore's interperetations, his own theories, can be debated, but these are not presented as fact. Anyway,

peter

 

[Dreamer]

PS, my God, there ARE social programs that I need, and will need in the future. That's the strange thing. I'm not 100% Conservative or 100% Liberal. No one can be. And no party can be everything to all people.

I could use socialized medicine, but I also see how it can be a very poor system. I hear complaints from you Brits and Canooks Also, our Health Maintenance Organizations, based on the same system, provide the worst healthcare. As the saying goes, "You get what you pay for", and "Nothing is free." We pay income tax, ya'll have ridiculous taxes on commodities, everything, and that value added tax thing in Canada.

I'm mostly conservative, but I am pro-choice, I'm for gay civil unions, I'd like to know if I'll have any social support when I'm older, Rx medication may be unaffordable, etc., etc.

And then I see the world and think, well, that won't matter if we're blown up tomorrow.

Forgive if I come across too "Republican" ... part of it was I was raised in a very conservative community. That stays with you, how you were raised. "We may be through with the past, but the past ain't through with us." And I was brought up by the endless rantings of my successful, mother/doctor/shrink -- "Just pull yourself up by the goddamned bootstraps and shut up." Ah, the American Way? Yes, and no. We need a little kindness as children to be strong adults.
Peace,
D :shock:

 

[Guest]

I don't get the "god" thing in politics.
The dollar note says "in god we trust" but what has god to do with money?
Bush often stresses religious faith in his speeches and is still confident of the war in iraq.

Bush's hypocritical religious faith is nothing but religious rape and the foreign policy or even the whole government under bush reminds me of europe in the middle ages when church and state weren't separate. Sometimes I think bush and the army is not a bit better than the radical islamis. America's government attacks iraq in the name of a christian god, the other side attacks america in the name of their non- christian god.

The only thing that makes the above equation untrue is the fact that americans don't handle their faith so radically.
Thank god!

I hope kerry isn't such a moron and gets elected and keeps religion out of governing a country, god damn!

 

[Dreamer]

Ooops, as Janine reminded me, I NEVER remember the name of the cool documentary, CRAP!, sorry, it's ...

"Capturing the Friedmans"

Also, religion is always part of culture, in a general sense. Even countries like France which consider themselves "secular" still have members of numerous practicing religions. Their recent bid to rid everyone of their religious trappings in public only infuriated most religious people, but Muslims in particular -- that move was political, and not for the benefit of maintaining a secular "image." Calling a country "secular" is window dressing. The US attempts to separate Church and State, yes, but that is VERY difficult, and is so in other countries which do the same.

Also, I hate to say this, but Osama Bin Laden declared a Holy War in the name of Allah against all Americans and wants us all dead. And George Bush, in the history of U.S. Presidents, speaks no more about God than some of our past Presidents. (I'll get references for that.)

Ronald Reagan and Jimmy Carter come to mind as very religious individuals.

It is so strange to say why do we have "In God We Trust" on our money, or why do we say "One nation, under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance. Those things are part of our HISTORY, they weren't invented yesterday.

We're still wasting time debating over such issues. There's a huge debate about taking a cross or something off of the California State flag as it represents part of the critical history of the state by Junipero Serra, who set up missions along the coast.

That is so "Politically Correct". ACH. I'm not a religious person, and never once did I think about this. We have enough other problems in the world.

But why does everyone forget that the Muslim Fundamentalists (this is NOT the belief of the average Muslim at all) have declared a what, fatois, or a jihad, or whatever it's called.... a Holy War in the name of Allah against Americans and their friends? And this "Holy War" was declared back in the 1980s if I'm not mistaken. This is OLD news.

Ah, and here's food for thought... should we eliminate the Olympic torch relay and destroy the Olympic flag? Many of the pomp and circumstance of the Olympics was established by Adolf Hitler. I'm not lying, I'll find a reference for that if anyone wants it.

Life is not a sound bite. Politics/diplomacy is not simple. NOTHING is simple in this world. I hate Presidential campaigning, etc., but that history is old as the hills as well.

Not trying to sound cranky or mean. Please don't take it that way, I can't even remember the name of the one good bit of filmmaking I've seen in the last year, LOL. :roll:

Peace,
D :shock: