A little more about my Tom Cruise rant

8617 Views 67 Replies 15 Participants Last post by Sojourner, Jul 19, 2005

andymania

Discussion Starter · Jul 11, 2005

I did some research about the Church of Scientology after finding out Tom Crusie was a devote member of. No wonder he denounces psychiatry since it is the Church's no.1 enemy. I stumbled upon this great site which tries to inform the public about the dangers of this Church, and that it posts many many secret documents ( including many written by hand from L.Ron Hubbard himself).

All I can say is that this religion/philosophy is just as dangerous as it claims psychology and psychiatry to be.

What a load of sci-fi crap. And off course there is some sort of a deal between the church and all these stupid celebs that are members.

Anyway, yes psychology/psychiatry has a long ways to go before it solves and solidifies any claims. However to say that psychiatry/psychology is a pseudo science is quite effrontery.

All sciences started out as hypotheses, and went through an abudant amount of trial and error before any kind of fact could be declared. This is what is going on with these Anti-depressants. There are side-effects which can be very bad for some and we truly do not know if they can cause some permanent changes. However this is the price you have to pay for science. Without mistakes there can be no progress. Yes, I understand that the pharmaceutical companies make big $$$ of these drugs and probably want people to be depressed, anxious, etc however to give such a label to all the millions of psychologists, researchers who are doing all this work just because of the few big drug companies is an insult. Im sure that there are plenty of researchers/psychologists who really are passionate about there work and want to make a difference.

There are many theories in astronomy and many facts that need to be sought out, yet we do not dare to call it a pseudo-science.

You need to start somewhere and starting with chemical imbalances starts like a good starting point,

-Andy

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41 - 60 of 68 Posts

sming

· #41 · Jul 14, 2005

The medication only masks the symptoms.

Speak for yourself, sunbeam. My thinking has changed quite radically since starting Lexapro and Buspar. I would argue that that is changing the cause, since I personally feel bad after thinking certain thoughts rather than "just feeling bad".

I'd been trying to change my thinking for 6 years via REBT, CAT and CBT with little impact. These drugs have changed my thinking. I would not call that "masking the symptoms".

Pete
p.s. where abouts in Wales you from? I'm a Bangor lad.

Welshlad

· #42 · Jul 15, 2005

ok, u guys win on this one.

Think I've been putting thinking in the same category as emotion.I could do with thinking a bit more myself sometimes.

I'm from the Rhondda, but I spend half the year in Edinburgh at Uni.

How'd u end up in NYC then?

Sojourner

· #43 · Jul 15, 2005

The field of "medicine" in its classic sense is an art, not a science.

However, the method by which substances are determined to have specific actions on other substances is "science" in its classic sense.

All I know about antidepressants is that:

- The drugs themselves were initially formulated for a very different purpose (I cannot recall what it was but I'm sure you can find it via Google) and a side effect of that original drug or drugs was that the patients reported that their moods improved.

- There's a chemical "clean-up crew" in the brain that removes neurotransmitters after a neuron "fires." The drugs do not create anything; they make the clean-up crew behave less efficiently, that is, the clean-up crew leaves serotonin behind and fails to "uptake" or "clean up" all of it.

- Technically, antidepressants are removing the symptoms not by "masking" them, that is, by covering them with some other symptom. They are stopping the clean-up crew from doing its job completely.

- Scientific studies have led many a good mind to conclude that there is a genetic disposition for depression, which means not that depression is inherited, but that the chance of a trigger igniting, so to speak, the disposition toward depression is inherited. Google for twin studies depression.

---------

Doctors are not policemen; if patients and their families are so incapable of recognizing aberrant behavior or thoughts and refuse to consult their physicians, you can never avoid the possibility that a person will go berserk. Heck, they go berserk without drugs.

If there is over-prescription of psychotropic drugs, it is a political problem that needs to be addressed by the whole society. I personally believe that only psychiatrists should prescribe psychotropic drugs in consultation with a patient's family doctor or GP. This would permit a greater level of patient review, IMO, and greater protections.

So let's be agreed that the field of medicine is an ART, not a science. It takes interpretation and knowledge to treat a person. But the substances themselves are subject to the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, and maintaining there are no grounds for their continued use is a symptom of the general ignorance of a vast portion of so-called Western civilization.

What were those Columbine monsters doing during their afternoons? Where were their parents? I think it is unconscionable to place the blame for the creation of these monsters onto the field of medicine. No, parents have screwed up really badly. I hold them responsible, and I really think they should pay for their willingly standing by and allowing the monsters to be taken completely over by Satan. That's what they did. Don't blame the doctors, please.

Sojourner

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grandma-stole-my-wheels

· #44 · Jul 15, 2005

. soon .

[rula]

· #45 · Jul 15, 2005

Sojourner said:
- The drugs themselves were initially formulated for a very different purpose

tuberculosis.

- Technically, antidepressants are removing the symptoms not by "masking" them, that is, by covering them with some other symptom.

but you are artificially increasing serotonin instead of addressing why it became low in the first place...so that is masking the problem. and no, to date there's no conclusive evidence that depression can be genetic.

They are stopping the clean-up crew from doing its job completely.

two things. no one really knows why an increase in Serotonin in the synapse sometimes improves mood. fact is AD's don't work for everyone so it seems logical to conclude that there's more to it than just increasing Serotonin levels. and no one knows what that is yet.

the other even more important issue is that resting/reuptake Serotonin is not garbage, it's not always destroyed. it's used to make Melatonin (that's why ppl on SSRI's usually have problems with insomnia) and it's also used to make 5-HIAA a Serotonin metabolite that when low can lead to all kinds of problems, like aggression, violence, suicide, etc...you can't interrupt the natural cycle and expect no consequences.

Don't blame the doctors, please.

maybe not for columbine, but I'll always blame my GP for pulling a 15 mins and a pill and no explanation...7 months later i'm still horribly addicted to that pill. :evil: :evil:

-ru

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dakotajo

· #46 · Jul 15, 2005

Hi Rula,

What drug are you addicted to?

Sojourner

· #47 · Jul 15, 2005

Rula,

Yes, I think your doctor was negligent for doing that.

With regard to the genetic disposition, my understanding is that the evidence strongly suggests that it is so. Nothing is ever "conclusive" in science because no experiment or research can cover ALL variables in one study.

Thanks for filling in some of the details.

There has to be a way to get off whatever drug you say you are addicted to. I hope you find it soon.

[rula]

· #48 · Jul 15, 2005

dakotajo said:
What drug are you addicted to?

your favorite Joe, Klonopoison. I'm tapering right now, and it's so much fun. :roll:

I'm not trying to deter anyone here from taking whatever meds they're comfortable with and feel might help. I do agree that mindset has a lot to do with how effective these meds can be. I'm not even opposed to the idea of masking symptoms as long as one is working to figure out what's causing them in the first place. But doctors who aren't even psychiatrists (not just my GP) keep prescribing meds for longer than their recommended safe usage guidlines. That's 3-4 weeks for benzos, and 6 months to a year for AD's. Use them longer and you're opening the door to a brand new set of problems.

Sajourner, I can only speak for my own brand of depression. I have 9 siblings, we all lived through the same civil war, the same constant daily fear of death/who's gonna bomb our house next? or will it be a car bomb today (i nearly died of one). we all dealt with the same alcoholic father too, but none of my siblings have ever seen a psychiatrist, been diagnosed depressed or taken an anti-anxiety med. genetic? I doubt it.

-ru

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dakotajo

· #49 · Jul 15, 2005

Hi Rula,

Im sorry to hear that. I thought I remembered you saying you were taking klonopin. Im glad to hear you are tapering slowly. Im sure you will do fine.

I was naive and I trusted doctors. I didnt do the proper research about the drug they were so willing to give me. I was warned that benzos were addictive but my doctor told me that if I truly had anxiety there was a good chance I wouldnt become dependent. Boy, does that make sense??? he didnt explain to me that benzos are physically and psychologically addicting. Nobody is immune to physical addiction. Its just so insane to me how doctors are so willing to exchange one problem(anxiety, which can be dealt with without drugs) for alot bigger one(addiction). It just sends you out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Joe

dakotajo

· #50 · Jul 15, 2005

I forgot to ask you something. When did you first experience chronic dp/dr? Was it before or after the klonopin? Ive read alot of stories of people who have picked up this symptom while on these drugs or in withdrawal and after they are off and given some time for their brain to "heal", the dp went away.

Ray Nimmo(benzo.org) told me he first experinced dp/dr in withdrawal from valium and had it 24-7 for 18 straight months. One day he said he woke up and it was gone and that was the beginning of his valium withdrawal recovery.

I still feel dp/dr is related to sertonin and Ive always wondered if benzos reduce the output of serotonin which causes thes symptoms of depression, anxiety and even dp/dr. It just takes along time for the brain to get back to its pre-drug state.

Joe

G

· #51 · Jul 15, 2005

Ray Nimmo(benzo.org) told me he first experinced dp/dr in withdrawal from valium and had it 24-7 for 18 straight months. One day he said he woke up and it was gone and that was the beginning of his valium withdrawal recovery. Ray Nimmo(benzo.org) told me he first experinced dp/dr in withdrawal from valium and had it 24-7 for 18 straight months. One day he said he woke up and it was gone and that was the beginning of his valium withdrawal recovery.

Not a very reliable source

enigma

· #52 · Jul 15, 2005

rula said:
your favorite Joe, Klonopoison.

I love klonopin! Mmmmmmmmmmm......................candy!

e

[rula]

· #53 · Jul 15, 2005

dakotajo said:
I forgot to ask you something. When did you first experience chronic dp/dr? Was it before or after the klonopin?

After the klonopin for sure. but, for me I know dp is nothing more than a symptom of anxiety, and my anxiety went sky high when I goggled the word Benzo and came across the benzo forum. Then it got even worse when I tried to cold trukey after just 3 weeks, bad idea.

Ray Nimmo(benzo.org) told me he first experinced dp/dr in withdrawal from valium and had it 24-7 for 18 straight months. One day he said he woke up and it was gone and that was the beginning of his valium withdrawal recovery.

never heard of DP dissapearing over night like that. it leaves like it comes on, gradually...Grandma's DP was actually Benzo induced, and it took him around 18 months or so after the cold turkey to completely recover. right Grandma?

Ive always wondered if benzos reduce the output of serotonin which causes thes symptoms of depression, anxiety and even dp/dr.

they do. it's in the Ashton manual.

Sojourner

· #54 · Jul 16, 2005

Rula wrote:
Sajourner, I can only speak for my own brand of depression. I have 9 siblings, we all lived through the same civil war, the same constant daily fear of death/who's gonna bomb our house next? or will it be a car bomb today (i nearly died of one). we all dealt with the same alcoholic father too, but none of my siblings have ever seen a psychiatrist, been diagnosed depressed or taken an anti-anxiety med. genetic? I doubt it.

----

Where do you live -- Northern Ireland?

Your evidence is anecdotal, not scientific. The twins studies were scientific. Remember also that it's the disposition only that's thought to be genetic, and what may have been a "trigger" for you may not have been a "trigger" for your siblings.

But, of course, the bottom line is that what science may "say" today can be erased tomorrow with a new study. :roll:

[rula]

· #55 · Jul 16, 2005

Sojourner said:
Where do you live -- Northern Ireland?

LOL. cuz my father was an alcoholic? no, i was born in Lebanon, not typcially known as the land of alcoholism

Your evidence is anecdotal, not scientific. The twins studies were scientific. Remember also that it's the disposition only that's thought to be genetic, and what may have been a "trigger" for you may not have been a "trigger" for your siblings.

The point I was trying to make, and didn't make clearly, is that IF a genetic predisposition existed, and environmental factors clearly existed, and given the number of sooo many siblings, then the odds of depression being triggered should be higher than 1 in 10. I'm not even talking about a DP trigger, no 3-hour panic attack, just a depression trigger.

The scientists are now leaning towards the combo-special theory, it's genetic+environmental+organic. Personally I'm a big beleiver in the organic theory alone, as long as your diet is solid, you're rested and you exercise, your body knows how to blanace out its own chemical; doesn't matter what traumatic events come your way, your body can heal itself. Depression rates are highest in the west where really, let's face it, traumatic events/life problems relative to other parts of the world really are insignificant...but our diet sucks and our food is inorganic and lacks nutrients.

A famous psychiatrist (i believe it was Adler but I could be wrong) said and i'm paraphrasing, "One day it will be discovered that all psychological problems have their roots in something organic".

but you're right, scientist will switch gears again, and they'll decide maybe that the real cause of depression is not having used the word flotsam cleverly in a sentence, by the age of 21.

-ru

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Sojourner

· #56 · Jul 16, 2005

Ru,

"You wrote: "LOL. cuz my father was an alcoholic?"

The above thought is YOUR thought -- please do not project such evil things onto me, okay? It was never my thought. I do not participate in the inferior and immoral form of thinking involved in such stereotyping and I would prefer not to be accused of it.

I was trying to think of an English-speaking country that one could say had a "civil war" -- perhaps Zimbabwe...

But now it sounds like you live in the West, where we haven't a care in the world, so I'm more confused about where you are -- of course it doesn't really matter... but what's the point of talking at all if we don't make sense?

You also wrote: "The scientists are now leaning towards the combo-special theory, it's genetic+environmental+organic."

I thought that was what I was implying -- that it isn't JUST genetics....

Anyway, wherever you are, stay out of trouble, will 'ya????? :lol:
---

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[rula]

· #57 · Jul 16, 2005

Sojourner said:
Ru,

The above thought is YOUR thought -- please do not project such evil things onto me, okay? It was never my thought. I do not participate in the inferior and immoral form of thinking involved in such stereotyping and I would prefer not to be accused of it.

man, chill...i don't even think an irish person would call that an EVIL and immoral from of thinking. I have many Irish friends, I live on top of an Irish bar, and they think joking about their drinking is funny! exaggerated political correctness is a sickness of american society only. you should try being not so PC sometimes, it's fun.

I was trying to think of an English-speaking country that one could say had a "civil war" -- perhaps Zimbabwe...

relax! i know that's what you were thinking dude. but why assume i only speak english?

but what's the point of talking at all if we don't make sense?

not sure what part didn't make sense to you. i don't agree with the gentic argument, at all, simple enough? but i am sure of one thing, this conversation is now pointless. :lol: :lol:

enjoy ur day...

Sojourner

· #58 · Jul 17, 2005

Rula,

All I can say is that you are obviously not a student of history. It's one thing to laugh with people you know in an intimate setting when everyone knows there's nothing seriously meant by it, but far different to jump to a conclusion that someone is saying something because of a negative stereotype.

You are also ignorant, evidently, of the utterly despicable and EVIL history of the treatment of the Irish in America, the Jews in Germany, etc., and the blacks in America.

How could anyone be this dense?

That you "don't agree with the gentic (sic) argument, at all" is amusing, but meaningless. Your opinion on that is worthless to me, frankly. Anybody who thinks racial and ethnic so-called jokes are "funny" is truly among the mentally deranged in our world.

[rula]

· #59 · Jul 17, 2005

:roll: :roll: :roll:

ahem, maybe sajourner you forgot that you made the completely baseless guess that I was Irish. no wait, your lame excuse was it's cuz I speak english, that should cover just about 2/3 of the world's population. maybe you should ask yourself why the devil made you ask that question.

your knowledge of foreign cultures is about as deep as your knowledge in anything else really. I mean my name is RULA and I have 10 siblings, and you guessed Ireland?

I'm just amazed at how good christian ppl like you who often bring up things like evil and satanic forces acting in the world, actually are so far removed from having any qualities that Christ would've loved for you to have. your faith is about as shallow as your words.

But Sajourner, seriously, I can't seem to make this site stop emailing me despite turning email notifications off! so pleeeease pleeeease stop replying to this thread, wouldn't you just love this message board without me on it?? hmm?

Sojourner

· #60 · Jul 17, 2005

rula said:
ahem, maybe sajourner you forgot that you made the completely baseless guess that I was Irish. no wait, your lame excuse was it's cuz I speak english, that should cover just about 2/3 of the world's population. maybe you should ask yourself why the devil made you ask that question.

There you go again. I've told him to get lost and go look for you, and evidently he has found you.

My guess was wrong, but hardly baseless. Many people around the world who speak English do not know or use the childish abbreviations for words -- which are suitable for instant messaging, but not serious discussion -- that you do.

rula said:
your knowledge of foreign cultures is about as deep as your knowledge in anything else really. I mean my name is RULA and I have 10 siblings, and you guessed Ireland?

You have a delusion that you are God -- I see that now. You think you know what I know about "foreign cultures" but you actually know nothing about what I know. Again you are projecting your own deficits onto me, because you reveal by what you say that you cannot even see the well-known and rather fundamental connection between the idea of Catholic Irish and extremely large families. It's a factual connection based on religion. I had never heard of the "Troubles" spoken of as a civil war, which is the connection my mind came up with.

Your "name" should have told me something? :roll: You should do stand-up, you know. I hate tell you, but my name is NOT Sojourner.
:roll:

rula said:
I'm just amazed at how good christian ppl like you who often bring up things like evil and satanic forces acting in the world, actually are so far removed from having any qualities that Christ would've loved for you to have. your faith is about as shallow as your words.

You don't know whether I am good or not; that's another problem you have. You cannot see that objecting to the projection of your internal prejudices onto others is a moral act. You don't know what "good" is because you think rebuking evil is NOT good. Well, I don't believe you really think that; you just think that you meant nothing serious by it. Your lack of knowledge of "foreign cultures" is evident. You obviously have no idea how sensitive to these things Americans are. You think you are "innocent," but like with the discussion of a genetic factor in mental illnesses, you don't want to be disturbed by the facts.

Ethnic and racial alleged humor is not funny. Genocide is not funny. Accusing people of using ethnic stereotypes is as evil as having the stereotypes yourself.

Oh, yes, I am shallow for asking where you lived and for confronting you and your twisted assumption that I was applying a stereotype the way you do. I am shallow for your behavior -- for your connecting in your own mind alcoholism and Ireland and then projecting that on me -- and laughing about it as if your accusation was some kind of "gotcha"?

rula said:
But Sajourner, seriously, I can't seem to make this site stop emailing me despite turning email notifications off! so pleeeease pleeeease stop replying to this thread, wouldn't you just love this message board without me on it?? hmm?

Yes, stand-up is definitely where you will succeed, rula. Sorry, but I cannot help you with this, but you can conquer this on your own. See the little key with the word "Delete" written on it? Use it.

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