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Hi everyone. Sorry I havent been able to answer all of my PMs and emails this summer. Its been a really horrendous year. Just wanted to get some of it out into the cyberworld to vent. If anyone has any constructive feedback, hit me with it. That includes everyone but Martin. Just kidding.

So I've been pretty ill this year. Actually this year and a half. Had to cut down my classes in Pittsburgh to almost nothing. Cold sweats, headaches, pains shooting up my sides and down my legs. Swelling all over. I'd been diagnosed with DP at 18, and I just turned 24. Hadnt got along with Mom and Dad since then. And of course, any time I have a problem with their attitudes towards people in general and me in particular, its always " Your just sick. If you were thinking clearly, you'd realize we're doing whats best." Ah, would that be disowning me? Well, it always makes you wonder whether you really ARE thinking clearly. But this year, while I was stretched out on a hospital bed in first the regular hospital, and then in the psych ward when the doctors couldnt figure it out, I realized that there was no way in hell that a family could truly love you and not beleive that you are finally physically ill. Not come visit you. Tell the doctors that its just your mental illness acting up. I think this year I had an epiphany.

When I was released last winter, I went back to classes. I was on the accelerated bachelors/med school track. But now I could only take 2 classes in the winter, one in the spring. Pushed my doctors, did hours of research at Scaife medical library. I found that rare disease, Porphyria, and got tested for it. I was positive. Told my parents. They didnt care. Even some of my roommates didnt. Its funny how denial affects people. My parents didnt want to care because they didnt want a defective child. Some of my roommates didnt understand, because porphyria makes you sensitive to chemicals. Try asking college guys not to wear cologne. Not cool. I started to notice that every time I walked from classes past the gas station near our house, I would break out in a cold sweat. Every time I was in the smog near our college, I got faint. I had to get out of Pittsburgh.

So I went home in May. It was my birthday. I was born on Mother's day. I spent about four days with my parents. I asked my dad if we could patch up our father son relationship with him helping me to finally get my license, since I was going to move back to Ohio. No dice. He didnt want me moving back. He didnt want me moving away at first either. So my grandfather let me use his car, until my parents got to him. And then my parents let me know that I wasnt welcome at their house if I was going to pursue returning to the state. I hate when they try manipulating me by making things impossibly hard. So I walked a mile down to the Franciscan monastery where I had served Mass as a boy, explained my dilemma to Father Vit, and was allowed to stay at the retreat house. Alone. Man I hate my family. Someone they had pissed off at church, a bit of a "crazy church lady" was now the office secretary. She gave me the use of her car, and I got my license. I returned to Pittsburgh, some of my faith in humanity restored.

I needed money, and I needed alot fast. I was going to need a car if I returned to Ohio. Not real good public transportation. A friend of mine returned to our house with a flyer. " Political activists needed. Good pay. Commission". Just what I needed. We went door to door discussing issues with people, soliciting donations. The more you got, the more you were paid. I liked it, people liked me, my commission rose. I got to travel a bit and use some of my acting chops. I went back to Ohio, this time in a company car. I needed three things. An apartment, a car, and roommates. My buddy Tim had just been diagnosed with Bi-polar disorder, and his parents were treating him like many parents treat their kids when they have a mental disorder - very, very badly. He had a freind who was an engineer, also bad parent situation. Only his Mom was the one with Bi-polar. Cool. Balance the house out. So we looked for apartments. One night I had to sleep in my truck. My family just wouldnt let me stay over. Most of the nights, my uncle let me stay with him. My father hasnt talked with him in years. My dad doesnt think my uncle is "religious" enough. Ah, the irony. Anyways, looking for an aparment when your chemically sensitive is alot like trying to escape hayfever in a feild of goldenrod. Landlords and previous tenants just really arent looking out your best interest. It took two trips back to the state, but finally we found a place. Near my relatives, but not too close. Surrounded by trees and grass, good security, new building. Clean. Now all I needed was a car. The campaign was winding down in Pittsburgh, and I couldnt use their rented Fords forever.

My old roommates in Pittsburgh had chosen a new place to live. It wasnt a real wise choice. Near a ghetto, in a renovated crack house. Not great for the chemically sensitive, or those sensitve to burglaries, evidently. Two days before I left, a druggie had broken into my roommate's room, ransacked it, taking his wallet, ID, credit card, house keys, and CDs- all while he slept. He waltzed out the back door in Kevin's room, out into the alleyway, and rang up 274 dollars on his credit card. I was ten feet away from Kevin's room, sleeping in the hallway. We were lucky. I had been told by the guys that I would have free rent for the month, since I had such bad luck with my family. And after all, I had started the group. But I know that college kids are fickle. Sure enough, the day before I was to move, they demanded rent money as payment for helping me load the Uhaul. Sorry guys, I hadnt planned on that. I had used my last dime to purchase a car. Now I didnt have anyone to help me load the UHaul. I called some old Navy ROTC buddies of mine, and we loaded everything and left that day before one of the most adamant roommates had returned. I want us all to remain friends, so hopefully I can mail them something soon.

I'm here now. I saw my parents at church last Sunday. They walked over to my pew afterwards, put their arms on my shoulders, and inquired about how my move had gone and where I was staying. It had gone great Mom and Dad. Like a summer in hell great. And couldnt I stop over to see them. I almost burst out laughing. Two days later, I stopped over to pick up some of my stuff stil at home. It was nine at night. I knocked for 10 minutes. Every light was on in the house, and I heard people inside. Thats it. I grabbed my roommate's cell phone, and called from outside on the porch. My brother picked up. Come back between nine to five. Nine to five ?!

I went downtown to get my Medicaid in order at Social Security. I couldnt find the building. I saw a well dressed black gentleman walking downtonwand said "Excuse me sir, do you know where the Social Security building is located?" "Sure. That orange brick building there. I just went there myself. So what do you do in town young man?" " I'm applying for a position at the Health Department, " I said, taken aback. " What do YOU do?" I queried back. "I own 21 McDonald's franchises and the Youngstown Steelhounds. " Thats the new town hockey team. Sweet. So evidently, his office may be looking for a guy with my skill set. Tim is friends with the Board of Health Commissioner, Dr. Neil Altman. I'll be going in to see him tommorrow and I've already dropped off my resume at the Steelhounds. Honestly, though, I think they'll just ignore it. So here I am. My porphyria is calming down. I dont wake up every morning with my liver feeling like its going to burst. But what should I do for a job? I'm young, and honestly, I just feel burnt out. Maybe I should get back to classes with other young people as soon as possible, and finish that bachelors, head back to med school in a less smoggy city. I'm not sure, because for the first time I can remember, I feel depressed. Like physically depressed and numb. I just feel like my youth isnt working out how its supposed to, and I'd like to be around young people AND use my talents. Anyways, I hear through the grapevine that my parents are pretty surprised and maybe a little ashamed even, that I made it back and am feeling a little better. I wont be talking to them for a while, though. I think they should be held accountable for their actions. In a way, I feel like I need to stop focusing on me, and get in a relationship or something. Maybe I just feel lonely, having to go through so much without anyone's support. Maybe I need to travel Europe or something. What do you guys think of this mess?


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What do you guys think of this mess?
So damned sad. For whatever it's worth, I think it's criminal for parents to screw around with their children.

And for whatever it's worth, I think it's horrible to feel you're unloved, or suspect you're unloved, or know you're unloved.

Been there. Know that feeling. And it's there with you always.

But you're strong. You manage to keep taking care of yourself. Don't try to answer all of the questions at once. I know easier said than done, but one thing at a time.

It's sort of terrifying how parts of your story sound exactly like mine.

As Richard Rhodes wrote, "Surviving childhood should not dpend on luck."

You're in my thoughts,

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:cry: Despite our differences, I wish you no ill Homeskooled. I doubt that you believe it, but I'm not kidding either.

A sad tale, with a theme that seems to be increasingly common on this board. I can't comment on your parents behaviour, and won't, as I too am tempted (daily) to bemoan my own parents attitude towards me (I truely honestly believe they talk to me, treat me, and think of me like a lump of shite) even though they let me stay with them, support me, etc. It's bizarre. I'm a 34 year old man and I've only just learned not to moan and whimper about how my parents are treating me. That's why I can't comment on your situation, because I can't even get my own situation straight in my head. I sometimes have to restrain myself when I see people coming on here moaning about their parents. Parents are too much of an easy target and sometimes I feel that a lot of people here aren't taking responsibility for their own lives. Yet I know that parents, for some people, can be a cause of suffering. Er, so, er, I did comment after all. With no conclusions of course. Despite the gulf that exists between almost everything we say or think, our situations are pretty similar. Nasty physical illness, nagging psychological problems, living with parents...etc. That certainly is ironic. The atheist and the religio dancing hand in hand. I'd laugh if it wasn't so tragic.

Sorry to hear about your Porphyria. Sounds nasty. Do you think it has any relation to your DR/DP? Is it something treatable?

And it isn't a mess. It's just life. It's a struggle. While some things don't have any answers, there is always hope, always a way out of the mire. It's finding your path, your route, that's the trick. Saying that, I think that my life has no path, so I try and content myself with being buffeted by misery while occassionally trying to squeeze some enjoyment out of life. Maybe if we didn't try so hard to be happy, to conquer our xyz, it might come naturally. Dunno.

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Every so and a while, I read something like this, to remind to myself that there are people with real problems.

Allow me to say something (gentle I hope) about family: they are just people who have their opinions and problems.

A notice: carbon gets into diamond under great pressure.

Do you think you can continue your life in Europe?

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Martin said:
I sometimes have to restrain myself when I see people coming on here moaning about their parents. Parents are too much of an easy target and sometimes I feel that a lot of people here aren't taking responsibility for their own lives. Yet I know that parents, for some people, can be a cause of suffering.
Martin, I respect you a lot, but this gets my goat.

One can be treated like shit by one's parents and still take responsibility for one's own life. Expressing frustration, sadness at not being loved, does not preclude "growing up" if it needs to be by one's self.

I don't think anyone here is seeking to "blame" thier parents.
There are some of us, and I include myself, who can attribute some
of their psychological issues at minimum to what is tantamount to
neglect if not verbal abuse or physical abuse.

I see my problems as twofold; I have physical symptoms -- DP/DR,
anxiety, and mood dysregulation (I prefer that to Borderline
traits). I also have psychological issues which interfere with my
interpersonal relationships. Even if I had no symptoms, I'd
probably still have sought psychological counseling to work out
some crap.

My mother was known by everyone around her to be a vicious woman.
She didn't treat me with disdain, she treated every other person in
her life in the same manner -- including her own patients whom she looked down upon like dirt. My father literally told his best
friend "she emasculated me." She threw him out of the house when I
was very little. She was abusive to our housekeeper. She was
paranoid of the neighbors. She suspected any of my friends of
stealing the valuables in the house, and many of my friends
preferred to have me over than visit my mother's house.

My mother was probably high functioning borderline. My father had
OCD. I can't "blame" them for being ill. But I can say that their
inability to love me, to give me coping skills, to see me as
"genetic garbage" -- my mother's words certainly didn't help me
deal with this illness or with other things in life.

And in one sentence, my mother was a psychiatrist, a doctor, who
believed she was God. My father was a surgeon who believed doctors
were Gods as well, though he felt like a total failure and gambled
away all of his money.

Ah, Hell, you can read my story on my website, or you've heard it a billion times already.
It is not there to complain or blame. It is there to try to
understand the Nature/Nurture cause of my illness.

I believe that mental illness is neurological, but no one knows the
balance of Nature/Nurture's effects.

I always find myself between a rock and a hard place on this board.
1. I have NO rec drug onset for my DP/DR
2. I however have a biological model of mental illness
3. I was also verbally and mentally abused by my mother and
abandoned by my father who were both old enough to be my
grandparents -- I never knew any extended family save my mother's sister and her kids who were 15 years older than I was. I also had no siblings.

My mother's idiot attorney, at her death said, "Hmm, your mother never had any friends did she?" DOH!

So when I speak of the biological nature of my illness, I am told I
am not examining my repressed memories of my abusive childhood. If
I acknowledge them, express them, examine them here, as Homeskooled
has about his own childhood/current situation, I am told I am
blaming my parents.

There are "good enough parents", there are really good parents (I
know quite a few -- and no one is perfect), and there are vicious
parents. There are those who simply don't know what the Hell
they're doing.

At any rate, as we have said here many times:

1. You can't measure the joy of another or the suffering of
2. You can never walk in someone else's shoes.
3. We cannot compare who has suffered more or less. What type of
suffering is worse.

At any rate, my two cents.
Some of us here have no rec drug onset and NO family abuse. Others
here have no rec drug onset and abuse or trauma in the past. There
are a million combinations. Some people have all three.

I just hate that word "blame." Although, I know my mother didn't
love me. And at my father's funeral some friends of my parents
said as much in a delicate way. Someone said that my father wished
he'd had a son, not a daughter.

I don't know to this day if I love either of my parents. And I don't think I was such a bad kid. I was a "good girl" who went to private school. Never got in trouble (save struggling in school), but I have a B.A. and an M.A. That wasn't enough for my mother. None of my successes meant anything to her.
et parenting is the really the most important job in this world.

I can say honestly, I envy the fact that your parents allow you to
stay at home. My mother threw me out of the house to "see how it
is to live with your father" -- which was miserable (he was a
hoarder/clutterer), and said, I should be out of the house by 17,
seeing as that was considered adulthood.

After I left for college, I was no longer a member of her "family".
I was a guest in the house. She made me toss all of my personal
belongings when I moved to L.A. after graduation.

I couldn't go home. And I didn't want to, it was Hell.
The worst part, my mother knew I had anxiety and depression when I
was a child. She only made fun of me. She also knew what DP/DR
were. She wouldn't allow me to see a psychiatrist until I begged
her. She felt "it was shameful for a psychiatrist's daughter to
see a psychiatrist" -- she must have felt some "guilt"?

Ah, she also sent me to a psychiatrist who specialized in drug
abuse. I found out later she told him I took drugs.

OK, end of rant.
I still respect you Martin a great deal -- I respect how you keep fighting all the crap that comes your way. I fight too, my own battles, I'm not blaming anyone for who I am. Yes, I feel terrible grief, I do feel abandoned.

Also, if you've read Janine's book, you know she had a truly... awful childhood. She has overcome it, but certainly her telling the story wasn't an acting of placing blame. Is any autobiography that includes the reality of abuse a complaint?

But this "blame" business gets my goat.

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I noted here that "friends of my parents" actually told me how sorry they were at how my mother treated me, AND my father. They were friends of my FATHER. They were doctor couples, colleagues of my parents, peers. My mother literally had no friends and despised her own family.

She didn't treat JUST me like a piece of shit, she treated EVERYONE that way.

This is statement of fact. Not blame. And I try to understand it in terms of my DP. Some continue to tell me that this is the cause of my DP. Idon't believe it is. I believe I have a neurological disorder. However, I am taking responsibility for my life.

My God, I simply don't seem to "fit in" properly here. I get more PMs from people saying, "It's Nurture!" "It's Nature!" "It's Nurture!" etc., etc.,

what if it's both? Why is that not a possibility? How is that completely eliminated? How can it be that this is "only psychological" -- only in our heads? WE ARE WHAT IS IN OUR HEADS. We are animals, human animals of instinct with a sense of our own mortality. We are extremely comlex, full of instinct and intellect. It's amazing we do as well as we do.

Sorry for the rant.

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Dear Guys,
Martin, there isnt as much of a gulf between us as we pretend. I think both of us are full of alot of hot air, and we're just two sides of the same coin. I know what you mean when you say that you cant figure out how to view your parents . They do that to you. They get in your head. They taught you whats right. How do you convince yourself that they're wrong?

Well, I think I've convinced myself. Really, I didnt have to. It just kind of hit me that if I took their advice or let their stonewalling control me, I would die. Not figuratively. Literally. I had to come to my conclusion. My conclusion is that I have parents who react exceptionally different to me and to life's situations than anyone I know, freind or family. And this doesnt mean that my DP was caused by my messed up parents ( I dont currently have it). I still think that nature wins (at least in my case) over nurture. But I know who I got my genes from. My father sounds like a carbon copy of Dreamer's mother. An obsessive paranoid about religion and people. My theory is that whenever nature is the cause of mental illness, of course it screws up the nurturing. You are being nurtured by people with skewed minds. So they take YOUR genetically skewed mind, and make it ten times more confused. But I think I'm out of the thicket now. I can see the forest for the trees. My parents had a responsiblity, and they shunned it. Its not a hard responsibility to take on, but its vital. I've taken in freinds with mental illness and physical harships, and I've gone to their doctor appointments with them and I've given them food and shelter. These are things I'd appreciate my family doing for me. I will show every kindness to others that my parents did not show to me, and when the time comes, to my children. These are not options - we have a moral obligation to do unto others what we would have them do unto us. My parents know that I'm like this. I've told them they've screwed up, and they're going to have to come to terms with me and with themselves. I'm not disappearing.

Dreamer, thanks. I'm not sure what I'll do next. I just stopped down at the mayoral campaign headquarters. I'll be doing a bit of volunteering for the next six weeks, while I'm job hunting. Everybody I talked to today said that they expect things to work out just fine for me in the long run. I hope so. The porphyria is treatable, but it is a complicated disease to get worked up. Thanks brainsilence. Yeah, I could get pretty good porphyria treatment in Europe. They use heme arginate, the best injection for it, and it isnt available in the states. I'd at least like to travel around there sometime, meeting up with people from this site or something. Alright, I have to go to put in an application. Talk soon.


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Hi homeskooled.Im interested in your angle on dp/dr,that its a result of brain imballances that inflence the personality as opposed to the other way round.Have you gone to hospital and got scanned?If so,what were the results and advice given?does your personality change/conscious process change if you go thru neurological surgery?How does it differ?does your health system cover the costs of such investigations?Have you totally dismissed the cause-effect theory of freudian based psychology as a reason for dp?Im totally sinscere,Ive had this thing since childhood off and on and looked in2 all angles from the luck of the draw to demonic possesion.Used to get horrific nightmares as a child,wasnt a victom of abuse,for that reason I havent dismissed 'hyperactive' neurological activity in causing this.

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Dear widescreen,
Yes, I had my brain scanned. I had a SPECT study done, and no, insurance companies usually wont pay for it. I payed for mine myself, and with help from my grandparents. Your thoughts CAN change after neurologic surgery, but if they are done properly, hopefully not. You dont need to have surgery for DP, or even for TLE. My findings were hypo and hyper perfusion of my temporal and parietal lobes. Yes, I've completely discarded the use of Freudian based cause-effect psychology or any kind of psychotherapy permanently curing a person with primary drug or non-drug induced DP. If it isnt primary DP, and the anxiety causes rather than stems from the DP, then I can see it helping. But if the chicken comes before the egg, if the feelings of alienation from self or skewed vision occur first, then no, I beleive that no conscious or unconscious thought process is at work. I think its neurologic dysfunction. As more and more studies are conducted, I think that anticonvulsant therapies will become the therapy of choice for people with DP, including most people with drug-induced. Honestly, I expect there to be an accepted medication therapy for it in my life-time.


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thanks for your reply.anticonvulsant therapies sounds like treatment for epilepsy,a condition of neurological misfiring very similar to dp/dr.I know a man with epilepsy and used to go out with a girl with it,both spoke of a feeling of deja vu and a sence of familiar lucidity just before an attack.they were describing Dr really,except following an attack,they'd be back to girlfriend used to talk of deja vu when she was with me and then had her first attack in 7 years after meeting me.The law of similars or what!!!!Found a site that downloads brainwave generators,sounds played at a particular frequency that enduces sleep,alertness,calmness,medatative states etc.Type in the search term and see what you think.It could be a gr8 way to start the day or play before going to bed with stereo headphones.might only be a quick fix but a small bit of peace is better than none,peace you certainly deserve.Religious leaders,mystics etc are thought to have hyper temporal lobe/octal lobe activity which leads me to the issue of the afterlife,basically dissatisfaction and uncertainty about the nature of reality.Sound like Dr?Ive been carrying this can for years and although ive learned to live with it,its an obstacle to productive functioning Im planning on dropping totally and utterly.We in Ireland can get PET scans on our insurance so may go down that road soon.mental health is a huge government issue because of the dramatic rise in suicides here in recent years.Keep posting your research,keep up your patience and stoicism.i hope your folks come back to help you,i know youre not using this thing to look for attention.peace to you pal.

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Dreamer - please refer to the following, the bit you didn't highlight in bold:

Yet I know that parents, for some people, can be a cause of suffering.
For gods sake woman, I know that your parents were bastards!!!!!!! :twisted: Surely we've known each other long enough for you to know that I recognize that, and that I regognize that their behaviour has had a major impact on your DR/DP. I strangle thee!! And I wasn't for a moment saying that you don't take responsibility for your life, or Homeskookeld for that matter, - jesus wept, I admire you both immensely for still making a success of your lives in spite of your problems. In comparison to you two, my parents are angels. Yet still, I'm tempted to blame them for some of my more unsavoury personality traits.

I was just pointing out that there is a danger for people to immediately blame their parents for their problems. It's so easy. And while, as an adult, we are reponsible for our actions (I am ENTIRELY responsible for my actions as an adult), I know that our psychological make up is influenced by our childhood. The difference, however, is intent. I am the way I am because of, possibly, the way my parents brought me up, but there was no deliberate intent on their part to screw me up. So I don't blame them in the slightest. My neurological make-up is inherited from my parents, but I don't blame them for that either, it's the same thing. And as a 34 year old man I'm not going to rush off to a therapist and ring my hands and whine about my mummy. This is what I mean about taking responsibility for your life.

I agree, absolutely, with everything else in your post. Entirely.

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Homeskooled, I have great respect for you.
You're insightful, intelligent and a very gifted individual.
I wish you all the best and every success in whatever you
And if ever you're in Sydney Australia, i don't see there being
any problem with me providing for you free accomodation.



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The difference, however, is intent. I am the way I am because of, possibly, the way my parents brought me up, but there was no deliberate intent on their part to screw me up. So I don't blame them in the slightest. My neurological make-up is inherited from my parents, but I don't blame them for that either, it's the same thing. And as a 34 year old man I'm not going to rush off to a therapist and ring my hands and whine about my mummy. This is what I mean about taking responsibility for your life.
Dear Martin,
I understand what you're saying. Truce? But I also believe what Homeskooled said, that parents should be held accountable for their actions.

My mother's actions (not my father's) were frequently deliberate. She had an agenda. I found this later in life. She wanted me weak so that in the end I would "come back, need her, her money" and take care of her. That became abundantly clear when she became elderly and frightened of being alone.

She suddenly befriended her sister's children (in their 50s at the time) as well, even though she had treated them like crap and looked down on them.

I agree with what you're saying overall. But I also don't see going in for therapy as "wringing one's hands over mummy" LOL. I have gotten a great deal of insight in therapy. And I didn't go to crab about my mother, it was more, "Why did she do this to me?" "Why didn't she love me?" And I found, yes, she couldn't help it.

As Homeskooled said, in such situations there is a literal brainwashing if you will that needs to be dealt with.

I also believe I inherited my anxiety/depression etc. from my parents. I can forgive my father, but not my mother.

The irony again was she was a psychiatrist, and her specialty? -- child abuse. She knew how to manipulate people and did it very well.

OK, enuf! And I know you know my story. And yup, it is difficult to know how much "control" my mother had over her actions. So many people though who knew her felt she had a good deal of insight into them. I will never know.

I can indeed forgive my father, though I feel no love for him, and can't say I felt appropriate grief when he died. I felt MORE grief for my mother, perhaps because the "family" was just the two of us. For better or worse.

And she was my mother.

I've got what you're saying. But I still feel therapy in such cases helps tremendously ... not whining ... but to gain perspective. As I always say, I bought my mother's "party line" from the beginning. I had to have an objective 3rd party help me see that. I have needed therapy for that, and to learning coping skills that I never got.

Also, I know I need validation. I crave it. It is probably my biggest issue. I believe it is indeed an endless search for my mother's love. I acknowledge that. I acknowledge I'll never get it. As time goes on, I have to behaviorally (CBT has helped) stop that. It is very difficult. I often need the help of my group therapy for that, and perspective from a therapist once a month.

Absolute Truce here. 8)
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