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Intrusive thoughts that I could harm people or even young children...

Also intrusive thinking that often felt like it might not be my own thinking..

Quite disturbing and frightening to be honest...
 

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Also intrusive thinking that often felt like it might not be my own thinking..
If you really introspect your thinking a little, you'll notice that nothing you think is your own thinking. You don't dictate your train of thought; it just appears, like someone else is giving you your thoughts.

Think. Analyze your next thought. Where did that thought come from? You didn't author that thought even if it at glance felt like you did.
 

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My existential thoughts are about time, being fixated and terrified of the fact nothing exists outside our vision. Events that just happened are gone and now nothing, same with words just spoken, my mind finds the dynamics of time complex and scary. I say my mind because it's not me. I dont give 2 shits about time, I want to live and be normal, but dr broke my psyche and i cant help it. 24/7 existential hell
 

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So like I know everything's real and I am , I just don't know why and that's always the question on my mind. I also have weird thoughts like who made up the words we say on a daily basis ? But at the same time they just sound so right. But I think about like why're there only two genders , who made up the names of the months , and just a bunch of other shit. Like obviously words are just made up but at the same time it all makes sense. It's just the huge "Why" question game. Soooo annoying.

Also I think like ... if we just live on this huge rock in the middle of the universe why does anything matter ?
 

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So like I know everything's real and I am , I just don't know why and that's always the question on my mind. I also have weird thoughts like who made up the words we say on a daily basis ? But at the same time they just sound so right. But I think about like why're there only two genders , who made up the names of the months , and just a bunch of other shit. Like obviously words are just made up but at the same time it all makes sense. It's just the huge "Why" question game. Soooo annoying.

Also I think like ... if we just live on this huge rock in the middle of the universe why does anything matter ?
Lets face it life and the universe is unexplainable and beyond human comprehension...If, what, why , how, etc etc etc....

Ive discovered that none of it is even worth contemplating and what really needs to be done is to enjoy every minute of it...Simply because we are all going to die at some stage....It is the only thing that life guarantees...That one day we will die...

So as a result do the things that make you happy ALL of the time...But at the same time take care of your health...Its priceless....Everything else is useless without our health....DP sufferers above all should know this...

We are all fed the western worlds delusion that image and money and material things are what make you happy and give you a proper place in society....The irony ive constantly seen is of so many people becoming so stressed and ill as a direct result of their desire to make money and look good and have expensive things that they end up becoming ill due to the very thing that drove them for so long in the first place...GREED and MATERIAL GAIN....They end up so sick from stress etc that they cant even enjoy all the fancy things and money theyve accumalated............

The answer is to live simpler....Appreciate what you do have and stop feeling dissatisfied with what you dont have...

I always find it funny when DP sufferers say I would swap anything in the world to get rid of this condition....Would you swap places with a person who had no legs and was permanently confined to a wheelchair? .....Or someone with serious facial deformaties? .....Or someone who was seriously mentally retarded?....I sincerely doubt it......
 

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So like I know everything's real and I am , I just don't know why and that's always the question on my mind. I also have weird thoughts like who made up the words we say on a daily basis ? But at the same time they just sound so right. But I think about like why're there only two genders , who made up the names of the months , and just a bunch of other shit. Like obviously words are just made up but at the same time it all makes sense. It's just the huge "Why" question game. Soooo annoying.
Words are just our mode of communication. We could just as well communicate by singing melodies, and it would make just as much sense as you if you had evolved to communicate in that manner. They sound "right" because you've been hearing those words your entire life. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about them.

There are only two genders because that's perfectly sufficient for reproduction.
 
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Isn't the prevailing theory that consciousness has a seat in the verbal/analytical hemisphere? Have you heard of "alien hand syndrome"? If this is all true, you could say that a functioning brain contains multiple awarenesses working in unison, and at least one of them is self-aware. By 'awareness,' I don't necessarily any more awareness than a computer with a sensor has, but I suspect there's more going on there than cautious people are willing to admit.
I certainly think we're generally giving consciousness way too much credit and ignoring all the vast unconscious processing that's going on under the hood every second of our lives. And it doesn't only involve passive faculties such as perception and memory but heavily influences, and in fact dictates, our thoughts, decisions, beliefs, and such. It feels like we have unfettered agency and are free to choose and do-and even think-whatever we want. The problem, though, is that we can't choose what we want-that's entirely up to the "unconscious mind"-and we can only do what we want to do or are coerced to do (and thus want to do because we want to escape the negative consequences of not complying).

This lack of control is tied to what I meant when I said "nothing you think is your own thinking" if you consider the conscious part of your brain activity, or what we as observers usually perceive as the self, as you. The only difference between a thought and an intrusive thought is that the intrusive thought is a disturbing, unwanted thought that the subject perhaps experiences as being incongruent with their character. It arises the exact same way as a "normal", i.e a welcomed, thought does. It is only the fact that the thought is unwanted or seemingly out of character that makes it at all remarkable and separates it from the rest of the person's thoughts. These "normal" thoughts are no more under the control of the thinker than the "intrusive" thoughts are, and so it wouldn't be entirely wrong to say that they aren't his either, depending on where we draw the boundary of the self.
 

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I know depersonalization can make it so that our thoughts and actions feel totally separate or alien. Thankfully, that symptom seems to affect me less now.
I've only had this a couple of times. It's a pretty disturbing feeling, like your hands aren't a part of you.

Determinism on the grand scale is challenging to me, how we're mostly participants in life and can't determine the outcome. The universe determines itself, so whether you try your hardest or don't try at all, life still involves a lot of passively watching events unfold.
Not mostly but entirely. That doesn't mean we are passive bystanders, though. We still act and function as determinants, contributing to the causal chain as any other element in nature does. Whether you try your hardest or not at all is also determined by antecedent causes.

I think the unconscious inner workings that lead to our thoughts and our preferences are part of what makes us "us."
Yes, of course. They are what defines us. They relay all the motivations to the conscious part of the person which then carries out the actions dictated by those unconscious causes. The notion of the conscious self is really no more you than the underlying unconscious processes are. It's all part of the same neurophysiology.

Of course, I think we should all be less like bystanders and take more control over life in general. I'm just saying that once we do all we can, we can't do anymore, and then the outcome happens. Then, after we spent so much time working on things in life we can affect, some super rare occurrence will blindside us.
We do what we are determined to do and won't do any more or less. "Should" implies that we can affect that somehow, unless I misconstrued your point. But yes, of course there's "chance" on top of that-"chance" being some unforeseen occurrence that we have no bearing on, even from a free will point of view.

I'm not sure if I grasp the focal point of your post or your stance. Do you subscribe to determinism or not?
 

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Yeah, I think I'm a determinist. I just replied because I'm bored. I was trying to say that I don't think determinism negates the fact that we make choices and affect outcomes, and I don't feel like it has to challenge anyone's sense of self.
Oh, you're absolutely right. We still make choices and all that. It's only a matter of where those choices come from and whether we can be held morally responsible, any more than weather patterns can be blamed for bringing us rain.

Determinism reminds me of the revelation that life is inherently meaningless. What is "inherent meaning," and how could it exist? I feel the same way about determinism. Is a non-deterministic existence even possible? We all know that one event precedes the next. So, maybe everyone should be a determinist, as long as they don't misinterpret it as a reason to be apathetic or detached.
Yep, there is no such inherent meaning. The fact that we were born here as sentient organisms is just part of the natural cycle of the universe and part of a long course of evolution over billions of years. A subjectively non-deterministic existence is possible, but it can only be attained through delusions such as religion or just plain ignorance. Modern religion (at least Christianity) is pretty much predicated on the belief of free will-though historically there has been controversy over this between Christian denominations-so it's something they must cling on to. Part of why the free will delusion is so pervasive is because it's always been a problem for religion: if humans acted deterministically, it would mean that God is a source of evil because He created man. This obviously is unacceptable from a religious standpoint because God can't represent evil in any shape or form.

But yeah, for us to have free will, it would require self-causation. Suggesting that something can cause itself is a complete absurdity. It's logically impossible because if something is caused by our will, it can't be self-caused; it's caused by our will. Furthermore, if anything we ever do is done for any reason at all, then it's not self-caused. Also, suggesting that free will is both caused and uncaused at the same time is also a logical absurdity because it violates the law of noncontradiction: A can't be A and not A at the same time. And uncaused free will could at best output completely random behavior because it couldn't by definition be linked to anything existing prior. Else it would be caused by it.

A widespread acceptance of the lack of free will is going to take a long time to spread because it's one of those inconvenient truths that most would rather push away and even go to great lengths to try and deny, no matter how logically ludicrous and fantastical the attempted justification. The most common argument, though, is that we must have it because we feel like we have it. That's as much proof for free will's existence as an optical illusion is for the objectivity of what we see.
 

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Thanks for responding to all of my posts. You've given a really thought-provoking take.
My pleasure. The same to you.

I never thought of the "free will delusion" as particularly harmful, but it sounds harmful by how you described it. Maybe the idea of free will does perpetuate unfair practices in our justice system, and promotes conservative delusions about people who are supposedly entirely self-made.
This is what it inevitably leads to, us sentencing criminals unfairly on emotional grounds, motivated by a thirst for revenge, instead of foremost on reformative and reasonable grounds. It also leads to arrogant pride, entitlement, destructive self-blame, and celebration of inequality. If someone is living in destitution, it's only fair, after all, because they could've done otherwise and avoided that fate. "If I was him, I would've lived a completely different life and would be well off". Nope, if you were him, you'd be him, and you would've done exactly as he did.

As Schopenhauer said: "Man can do as he wills, but he can't determine what he wills."

It's harmful and tremendously important because it impacts more or less every decision we make. It's the most important debate in my opinion.
 

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When it comes to serious crimes with real victims, it's hard to find the line between rational condemnation and an emotional desire to punish someone.
Only if you look at it through the lens of free will. If you acknowledge that free will doesn't exist, then you can give much more room for reason and largely push emotions aside. You wouldn't condemn a snake for biting you either. It did it because it's a snake, and that's what snakes do. Well, we're fundamentally no different than that snake, or a fruit fly, or a bacterium, when it comes to free will. We're more intelligent but no more responsible for what we are and thus what we do. Simply evolving further than those other lifeforms hasn't given us supernatural powers.

If the perpetrator was not in control of their behavior, then there are no grounds for condemning them. We could hypothetically put anyone in their place, and they would've done the same because they'd have had the exact same history of nature and nurture. That's because the "you" is entirely tied to the person's physical makeup. The "you" is in essence an illusion itself, in that it's just a function of the physical brain.

This reminded me of another sense in which free will makes absolutely no sense: evolutionary biology. Let's pretend for a minute that free will is a coherent concept and somehow possible in this world. I'm pretty sure no one would argue that a primitive unicellular organism like an amoeba has free will. A corollary of that is that free will must've evolved. Why would the free will gene ever have been chosen by natural selection? It's just about the *last* one to ever have been chosen. What good would it be for the preservation of our genes, which is the goal of any organism, to let us do whatever we want to-or rather free our wants? It would've entirely jeopardized us as a species. It makes no sense whatsoever. Free will would've set us completely free of the evolutionary programming that has ensured our survival up to this point and continues to do so (until we probably self-destruct in the near future due to being too efficient at doing what we do).
 

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If a perpetrator is a conduit for behavior that kills or seriously harms people, then they need to be condemned or at least presented with some kind of consequence. It's just common sense and totally stands whether or not you believe in free will.

If a snake were let loose unexpectedly in my house, I'd condemn that. I'd also condemn a bomb being in my house, or a machine that malfunctions and hurts people. I condemn cats, because they're disgusting, invasive, and people like to collect their shit in boxes. I condemn the idea of keeping chimps as pets, because they have a propensity to maim and kill and are much stronger than humans.

Like I was saying before, free will or not, we still play a role in the world that matters. There should still be a system of rewards and punishments for certain actions.

There's also a mental process called personal choice, which is not the same as free will. If I present you with a set of options, you will most likely go into a kind of choice-assessment mode where you decide which option to take, and things that I do can have an effect on your choice-making. It's my job as a cooperative member of society to tell you to choose the life potion and not the poison one. If you were to say, "I'm going to choose the so-called poison one because I think that you're lying," then it's my job to intervene.

What the "no free will" argument practically does is give us an opportunity to assess why we make certain choices, and to contemplate the inevitability of some occurrences, especially things which have already occurred. This can lead to us being more compassionate towards people who have made mistakes, but it definitely doesn't mean we should stop creating negative consequences for those who hurt others.

Every situation is unique. If you have a child who misbehaves, sometimes you need to respond with compassion and kindness. If a grown person throws acid on someone, then you might want to employ some kind of negative consequence.
I agree with you 100%. I think that the only reason we seemingly disagree here is a semantic one: it has to do with the word "condemn". I failed to explain myself adequately. We actually don't disagree about anything here.

When I say condemn, I mean it from an emotional, retributive standpoint, as in abhorring those who "chose wrong". You're absolutely right that criminal behavior needs to be deterred through punishment and reward. I'm not suggesting that we let everyone wreak havoc with impunity just because they aren't morally responsible. Yes, we absolutely need to keep punishing criminals. The difference is that the punishment is more "sorry, but I'm going to have to lock you up to correct your unwanted behavior; hopefully you can reform" than "burn in hell, you wicked subhuman monster!"
 

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Anyway, I need to stop talking about random shit on here.
Nah, you made good points. This thread is without a clear topic anyway. I mean, look at the topic: there is no official topic. Bwahaha.
 
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