Can a MRI detect bruised/stretched nerves? - Discussion - Depersonalization Community

Jump to content


Please Read the Community Forum Guidelines Before Posting.


Photo

Can a MRI detect bruised/stretched nerves?


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 sandervanc

sandervanc

    Newbie

  • DPSH Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 28 July 2020 - 08:04 AM

I know a MRI scan makes an image of the cranial nerves of the brain.
When a nerves is split in two, it should show up.

But I am now wondering if a MRI can tell you something about the state of a nerve, apart from if it's broken or not.

A nerve can also be bruised or stretched. When this is the case, it can severely impact your quality of life/performance.

So:
- Can a MRI show bruised/stretched nerves?

- If not, what scan IS capable of detecting/imaging this? (PET/SPECT ?)


PS
I'm asking this question because I'm working on a theory on how DPDR develops and how one can get stuck in the healing process.

This theory involves the following things:
- Stress management and resilience
- Cannabis use
- HPA-axis dysfunction
- Overstimulating of the Cranial Nerves
- Neurotransmitters imbalance
- Anxiety & the brain (Neocortex, limbic system, reptilian brain)

#2 RunToMe

RunToMe

    Regular Contributor

  • DPSH Members
  • 162 posts

Posted 28 July 2020 - 10:22 AM

Hi sandervanc,

 

normally a mri shows only the anatomic structure of brain regions. So you can see tumors, aneurysma or an atrophy. To see (single) nervous cells bruised is in my opion not possible by a mri. Inbalanced or stressed cells can be more founded by detection of hormons (sympathetic nerves with high adrenaline etc)



#3 sandervanc

sandervanc

    Newbie

  • DPSH Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 28 July 2020 - 11:08 AM

@Runtome

So seeing an endocrinologist could be helpful?

What about other scans like SPECT etc. ?

#4 Mayer-Gross

Mayer-Gross

    Great Contributor

  • DPSH Members
  • 578 posts
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 28 July 2020 - 04:35 PM

Why do you not read some research into the disorder before coming with absurd theories. You don’t have any ideas of what brains scans can do and their differences.

 

There are structural brain scanner, like MRI,CT, DTI And then there are functional scanners like SPECT, PET and fMRI.

MRI and DTI are dependent on their frequency of tesla. Most are 1,5-2.tesla are can see damages in the brain after a stroke. In multiple sclerosis you have to have several attacks to been seen makings after on such a scanner. A DTI might see it prior to an attack Most hospitals will have scanners in the range of 1,5-3. Tesla. There are more recently been developed MRI scanners that have a frequency of of 6.tesla. These can see the most details and are used for research.  There are done both MRI and DTI scans in depersonalization and they are available for free on the net. What MRI and DTI studies can say is with areas in the brain a smaller or larger compared with normal group. They use sally use 10-15. patients and a similar control to reduce errors in study. You can not make a diagnosis or have an idea based scanning of a single person. MRI can see indications of how the use of the brain have in printed into the brain,- areas very active will be larger and areas not used so much will be smaller compared to the normals. A DTI scan can see the thickness of the white matter between brain regions and get an idea of networks at play.  Activity between areas will have large connections/white matter while connections between regions that are suppressed will have weak connections. If you read those studies you would have an idea what could be done and what can’t. You would also understand that DP is difficult for those who do research into it. 
 

Then you talk of SPECT and PET. These are functional scanners. They can give some ideas of have the brain works when presented to different stimuli. These scanner are not used today’s as they are very old. I have never read a SPECT in depersonalization and there  is PET done 20.years ago. Today they use functional MRI witch works with messuring brain metabolism of oxygen as indication of activity. There are powerful computers connected to them. A functional MRI with high tesla and computer power will see many details. Today there are developed functional MRI scanners 50.times faster than those fMRI studies done until recently in psychiatry. Very few of them right now. There are potentially many errors in all brains scans done do technology and interpretations of data.  Functional scanners are exclusively used for research and not for diagnostic. The chances of getting a fMRI scan done not related to research is 0%. 
 

so, you have no idea about differences in scanners, what they can do or not because you have read nothing. This then becomes the basis for your theories. 
 



#5 RunToMe

RunToMe

    Regular Contributor

  • DPSH Members
  • 162 posts

Posted 29 July 2020 - 07:39 AM

the proability, that nerve cells get damaged through stress is less, because for example the autonomic nerve system is made for that (for example sympathetic nerve system is made for adrenalin, parasympathetic for noradrenalin).

 

maybe in permanent stress organs can makes problems in functioning.

 

theories or studies for example state out that after a trauma the hippocampus can get atrophed to 30 % (but a good chance to rebuild) and the the dorsal part of nervus vagues can get deactivated.

 

after long stress it is possible that a inbalance of hormons can starting. so  you can detect the hormons (serotononin, noradrenalin, dopamin, testosteron, endorphine etc) by an endocrionologist, but the values are not really specific or excactly. in many countries you have to pay for that private.

 

in a quantic EEG you can get hints of brain functioning (over/underactivation) based on average values from thousands other brains in a database. this outcomes are not for sure and fixed, but can give tendencies which areas in your brain working normal or impairing.

 

i am not a specialist and its only my opion or my restricted knowing. but what is for sure in such a complex human body...



#6 RunToMe

RunToMe

    Regular Contributor

  • DPSH Members
  • 162 posts

Posted 29 July 2020 - 09:51 AM

You can try additionally the heart rate variability (HRV). It is not a real scientific method, but it can give you an overview about your stress or trauma index. Normally its quite cheap.



#7 sandervanc

sandervanc

    Newbie

  • DPSH Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 29 July 2020 - 10:34 AM

@Runtome thanks for your reply!

#8 sandervanc

sandervanc

    Newbie

  • DPSH Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 29 July 2020 - 11:24 AM

@Mayer-Gross

The functions of a MRI-scan isn't the basis of my theory.
I thought it could play a role in proving my theory.

A part of my theory is about the overstimulation of the cranial nerves. Because of is this overstimulation the cranial nerves can't function like they used to.

Then i thought about a way to proof this overstimulation. How can you proof that nerves are indeed bruised/stretched. Brain scans came to mind. I saw that MRI's focus on the cranial nerves but only detect damage and not the condition of the nerves; if it's bruised or not.
Then i read posts of people that got MRI's done and alot of the scans came back normal. These people still experience DPDR symptoms but it's not seen in these scans.


The first things I noticed when my DPDR started 5 years ago, was that my senses seemed numbed and I felt pressure all over my head. See overstimulation of cranial nerves:

1. Cranial nerve I (olfactory) -> loss of smell
2. Cranial nerve II (optic) -> blurry vision/ HPPD?
3. Cranial nerve X (vagus nerve) -> detachment mind and body connection -> HPA-axis dysfunction

When I stumbled upon the cranial nerves, I finally understood why i experienced all these weird symptoms. It gave me a peaceful feeling, finally understood what's happening.
I think if people could read about this in the first stages of depersonalization, they would understand that what they're experiencing is caused by overstimulation of the nervous system and of course the cranial nerves. And that their main goal should be to calm and heal the nerves.

I'm realizing that the brain is a much more complex part of the human body.
But I think that curing DPDR is mainly done by healing and taking care of the nervous system. When your nerves are nurtured and calmed, the rest of the body will heal. When you feel safe, you'll heal.

I think DPDR therefore is primarily a nervous system disorder.

But then again it might be much more complicated than just the nervous system. Who knows.

If you have the answer to this horrible disorder, I'm all ears!

#9 Mayer-Gross

Mayer-Gross

    Great Contributor

  • DPSH Members
  • 578 posts
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 29 July 2020 - 03:23 PM

Look. I read everything related to research into depersonalization and more to that. I have never come across the idea that it is related  to cranial nerves. The cranial nerves origins is the brain. A damaged cranial nerve can not make significant difference inside that brain. There have been some interest in the vagus nerve and Stephen Porges who originally came up with the idea of the polyvagel theory thought that dissociation or immobilizing response was a parasympathetic defense response related to the vagus nerve. This response should be a” bottom up” from body to the brain. This have recently also been corrected by those who have an interest in this theory -including Stephen Porges. It is more likely be a “top down” from the brain to the body.

 

If you have read research prior to you theories you would have come across two publications from around 2012-2014. One have looked at the parasympathetic system, heart rate variability and the other at both the parasympathetic and sympathetic system in depersonalization. Both found disruptions but also wrote that these changes where centrally mediate, meaning that the changes seen in the systems did nor have a origin in the system. So, it came from outside,- likely the brain. So, it is not a “bottom up” from body to the brain but “top down” from brain to the body.

 

In many brains scan in depersonalization many point towards the left and right side of the medial prefrontal cortex. This region have for 5.decades been suspected for having the ability to inhibit fear and anxiety. Much research points towards it role in making immobilization. When people scanned when presented to a predator  that is coming closer and closer the medial prefrontal cortex becomes more active. So, the brain evaluates if a fight and flight response can taken or if it is to late and a immobilization response should be taken. There are many connections from the medial prefrontal cortex to the amygdala to suppress fear and likely make a numbing state. The medial prefrontal cortex like also have connections to a old structure in midbrain called “Periaqueductal gray”. This is the structure that regulates flight/flight and immobilization. It is very innervated by the opioid system and regulates pain. In patient suffering from PTSD with dissociation a fMRI study found the ventral part was active in the dissociative PTSD and not in normal PTSD. Is is thought that the Periagueductal gray releases many opiopates particularly dynorphins and the effect from this is sensory disintegration-derealization.
 

https://en.wikipedia...aqueductal_gray

The medial prefrontal cortex can regulate both the sympathetic and parasympathetic system. When the right is active the symphatic system is suppressed and when the left is active the parasympathetic system is stimulated. The medial prefrontal cortex is also active when we sleep. Here is a model with a cartoon illustration you might could understand.

 

https://jmvfh.utpjou...jmvfh.2019-0031
yes. I agree we have to understand more but I can not see that you are contributing to anything in that directions.



#10 sandervanc

sandervanc

    Newbie

  • DPSH Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 02 August 2020 - 11:24 AM

@Mayer-Gross

Look into myelin sheaths man.

#11 Mayer-Gross

Mayer-Gross

    Great Contributor

  • DPSH Members
  • 578 posts
  • LocationDenmark

Posted 02 August 2020 - 12:11 PM

@Mayer-Gross

Look into myelin sheaths man.

Look into retardation man. My mother suffered from multiple sclerosis for 40.years and died totally paralysed from it. Don’t you think I know what myelins sheaths does and damages does? There is a German DTI from 2018,- man!, that have looked into the white matter changes in depersonalization and there are no changes found like you see in multiple sclerosis or schizophrenia, -man.

https://www.ncbi.nlm...les/PMC6158023/

work on with your theories based on you do not read research into the disorder before coming with a theory, - man



#12 sandervanc

sandervanc

    Newbie

  • DPSH Members
  • Pip
  • 9 posts

Posted 02 August 2020 - 02:54 PM

I'm sorry to head that about your mom, that must've been tough.

I understand my reply isn't thoughtful, now that I see where you're coming from. Didn't mean to offend you.

Now, back on the topic; I understand that MS and Schizophrenia are neurodegenarative diseases in which the brain isn't able to repair itself.
Could DPDR then also be a neurodegenarative diseases, but that it seperates itself from MS/Schizophrenia because the DPDR brain is not broken (White matter -> myelin sheaths) but stuck.
A person with DPDR has torn up myelin sheaths comparable with people that have burnout syndrome. If you then focus on rebuilding these sheaths with supplements, meditation and perhaps yoga, you can slowly repair it. There are tons of recovery stories like this.

But if a person with DPDR has torn up myelin sheaths it should show in the brain scans, like in the article you shared.
Apparently that's not the case. Could that be because of the fact that there is nothing broken in DPDR mind but just bruised/stressed out. And that that's why it doesn't show up in these brain scans?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users