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#619404 Real vs not real

Posted by PerfectFifth on Today, 09:22 AM in Discussion

Before i read this i actually came to the same conclusion about myself existing. I know i have to exist. The other part is like what if awareness can pick up on things that are impossible too? Like that they appear too as impossibilities and i wouldnt know it? So far the only thing ive proved is I (as in just my awareness) exists but idk about anything else. This questioning does sound very irrational i know, but it freaks me out enough to consider it.

Yeah, it's quite irrational. Something being "impossible" is more or less just a tautology for something not existing, so you're back to square one. How can thing X be impossible if it's there for you to sense and clearly has a form? Clearly it *is* there and exists in some sense. If I'm not entirely mistaken, you're probably talking about those objects being illusory in some way, as in their essence is somehow different from how you perceive them (or how they seem to exist in this reality), or that they're "fake".


I haven't dropped my go-to response to these threads yet, so here we go: why does it matter? Why does any of this matter? I couldn't care less whether this is actual, fundamental reality or not, whether my existence is solipsistic, etc. It makes absolutely no difference, and I can't prove it one way or another. It's little more than a waste of time to even think of this. It gets you nowhere. It's an intellectual dead end. 


Whether a table "really exists" is ultimately irrelevant to me. Why? Because it exists to me, and everyone else in this existence, in practice. I can utilize it. It exists to me in this reality, whatever the fundamental nature of said reality. I'm in this "container", and all that matters to me is what takes place in the container and how it operates, how the laws within the container work. The ultimate realness or whatever of the stuff inside the container is irrelevant. And besides, I have no reason to assume it isn't fundamental reality. 


Okay, everything may be fake and so on. Now, tell me why this matters to you. This life is what it is, and it's going to keep going like it has been since you were born, until your death, whatever the fundamental nature of it.


This pondering would be worthwhile if it was at all possible to even investigate. But no, it's not. It's impossible to prove or disprove. 

#619352 Real vs not real

Posted by PerfectFifth on Yesterday, 02:17 AM in Discussion

How can your awareness not exist if you're aware? Seems like a logical contradiction.

It all started with me thinking what if i can perceive only things that dont exist, including myself.

This makes no sense to me. If they didn't exist, would it not follow that there should be nothing to perceive at all? Something that doesn't exist surely should be unavailable to our sensory experience. It shouldn't have any form at all because, by definition, if something doesn't exist, it is nothing, or rather it isn't anything. If there is something to perceive, then something must exist.


Because you're aware, your awareness must exist in some sense. If your awareness didn't exist, you would be dead, in a fully vegetative state, or you simply would never have existed. 

#619298 What is it like to have dp/dr for decades?

Posted by PerfectFifth on 07 July 2020 - 06:57 AM in Discussion

It's not so bad after some years. You get used to it. 

#619190 back to this site

Posted by PerfectFifth on 03 July 2020 - 03:10 PM in Introduce Yourself

A special love, for me is someone who can take your dp away forever. Now I'm married with anoter person, and I'm married an very happy about it. I will tell more about myself later.

I was very much in love, and it did nothing for my DP. Was my love not "special" enough? Did one of us not have DP?


Also, you've now said "I will tell more about myself later" three times. When is it happening? I'm losing faith here. 

#619086 back to this site

Posted by PerfectFifth on 30 June 2020 - 01:46 PM in Introduce Yourself

What's a "special love"?

#619068 So scared.

Posted by PerfectFifth on 29 June 2020 - 08:02 AM in The Daily Forum

I was acting silly with my girlfriend and we were in a small fight through text and she asked me if I drank anything. I started panicking because it wasn’t really me to act silly

Whatever you do is you. Maybe you just don't know yourself all that well. 

#618786 psychological model of a cognitive or mental human process in normal and dysf...

Posted by PerfectFifth on 18 June 2020 - 07:01 PM in Treatment Options

 :All which have a driver license, may remember the first hour of learning driving and to shift gears, knows how laborious and how much consciousness is necessary for that. Already after a few repetitions you get caught that you are in a high gear without knowing how you have done it, because it was fast automated respective slipped into the subconscious. And it goes so quick because you had the belief "i can do it" unwritten.


That's nowhere near analogous. Learning motor tasks and changing beliefs about oneself aren't even in the same ballpark. 


It's as if you think that we have complete control over our beliefs and emotions. That's not the case. I, for example, couldn't decide to become sincerely religious, no matter how many times I told myself that God exists and painted every single wall with the text "God is real". That's because there are deterministic factors, completely beyond my control, that dictate that through the "unconscious mind".  


I'm skeptical about positive affirmations in general. Say, someone has a deep conviction that they're ugly. What do you think saying "I'm beautiful" will actually accomplish? I don't think it will accomplish anything at all because they don't actually *believe* it. At worst, it just reminds them of how ugly they actually think they are.


Finally, do you have any sources for this post? There are a lot of bold claims here. 


So the process of automation is a fact, it only works slowly or quicker (depends from your positive belief; unfortunalety you are now in force of strong worrying and anxiety, whereby your positive beliefs at first is less), but it works and your worrying and anxiety will fade out.

Fact, really? Last time I checked, the efficacy of positive affirmations was in severe doubt or even debunked. 

#618728 A question about personality disorders

Posted by PerfectFifth on 17 June 2020 - 09:41 AM in Mental & Physical Health

I'm just amazed how it can be said in a very short amount of time like 15min, without any investigation or looking at any facts. 

Welcome to psychiatry/mental health. You won't find any empirical evidence of anything. 

#618684 Pressure anxiety sensations

Posted by PerfectFifth on 13 June 2020 - 07:37 PM in Discussion


Have a look at this link smile.png

That is certainly interesting, but at least as far as I understood it, all the research did seem to establish is that there's some sort of interaction between the cerebral cortex and the adrenal medulla, not that core exercise definitively reduces stress or anything of the sort. Still, core exercise of course can't hurt, and this research shows that there may be a benefit to stress. 


This is an example of common sense not always being a good guide, this time on my part. This seems to make no sense from a common sense perspective, but research shows that there is a connection of some sort. 

#618676 Pressure anxiety sensations

Posted by PerfectFifth on 13 June 2020 - 05:26 PM in Discussion

Thank you both for your replies smile.png I will give the exercises some try! Why is it that work on the core and lower part of the body wil help with these anxiety sensations? Or is it pure to be in the moment?

Yeah, I don't see it either. He also suggested deep breathing. Yeah, that may help with anxiety, and as far as I know it has been scientifically proven to do so. But core strength training exercise? Why on earth would that help with anxiety at all? Where's the connection? Does squatting help? What about lifting weights? Where's the logic? Again, as far as I know, exercise in general may help, anything that gets your heart rate up, but why does it have to be a core workout specifically? That seems totally arbitrary to me. 

#618664 Fucked up mean disorder

Posted by PerfectFifth on 13 June 2020 - 05:44 AM in Discussion

Why do you litter the forum with so many pointless threads like this? No one ever replies to most of them, so all they do is clutter the place and stand in the way of actual active, fruitful threads. This thread basically has no topic at all. It's just an empty complaint. 


It's an established pattern by now. I often know what thread is by you before even opening it, especially when I see a barrage of them in the "Latest Posts" section. 

#618652 Fear all my thoughts are determined? By God or someone that’s not me.

Posted by PerfectFifth on 12 June 2020 - 08:56 AM in Discussion

I think everyone's thought generator works similarly.  Great minds think in parallel, and all that.  I think it is important to recognize that the thought generating process is temperamental, and can be disturbed

by "mental" illness,  Mentally ill minds also think in parallel, which is why the DSM-V categorizes the parallel universe of the mentally ill into specific diagnosis. I've been there.  My mind was like an upset stomach,

burping and farting inappropriate thoughts and suggestions for the intellectual chairman's  review.  

I think we have to be careful about drawing direct analogies to "physical illnesses" (quotes because even mental illnesses are ultimately physical!) because the causation mechanism is often not analogous.


This is my view of the matter: most (probably not all) mental illness is not caused by anything abnormal occurring in the body. They're simply normal responses to an adverse environment. To say, then, that "mental illness" is like the flu would be incorrect as in the case of the flu, there's an external viral agent; there's a clear abnormality that isn't part of the body's normal functioning. I suppose mental illness would arguably be more analogous to something like diabetes as that is more like a response to an unhealthy environment. You stuff the body with too much of a negative external factor, and its systems break down due to excessive stress. You could argue that mental illness works the same way: you expose the brain to too many external stressors, and its function and therefore the psyche of the person suffers for it. 


Nothing abnormal, no endogenous pathology, is actually occurring; it's just that the natural, normal threshold for a certain external factor has been crossed. 


So, in a nutshell, my point is that the machine is working as intended, exactly as designed. The machine, even though it seems that way on the surface, is not malfunctioning. It's just reacting normally to the inputs given by the environment. The machine's design could be said to be incompatible with the inputs it's receiving from its surroundings, and that's how its "illness" results in. 


But you could object that "So what, coronary artery disease is caused by atherosclerosis, which is primarily caused by poor diet. That doesn't make it any less of a disease. It's normal and expected of the body to react this way". And yeah, that is correct. I guess drawing analogies to non-mental illnesses can be perfectly valid, at least it seems that way to me. But "depression is like the flu" seems incorrect as it's due to a virus, a clear external agent, not due to a slow build up of adverse external factors.


I think in mental illness, the biggest problem is where to draw the line between illness and normality as there is no clear empirical biomarker. Filling questionnaires and rating your mood on a scale from 1 to 5 only goes so far. It's pretty arbitrary. How do you distinguish between ordinary bouts of mental difficulty and "mental illness"? 


Well, from this ramble, one thing is clear: I haven't thought this through properly. 

#618650 Fear all my thoughts are determined? By God or someone that’s not me.

Posted by PerfectFifth on 12 June 2020 - 08:29 AM in Discussion

Btw, below is a philosophical theory about consciousness I've found really interesting.

Yeah, that was interesting. I was already familiar with it, and I believe I've read a paper written by the same person (?) about the same topic before, but it was still an interesting watch. The first time you realize this, it's quite the revelation. Our unexamined intuition is that we see reality exactly as it is, as an accurate, objective 1:1 representation. That's completely false. 

#618640 Fear all my thoughts are determined? By God or someone that’s not me.

Posted by PerfectFifth on 12 June 2020 - 05:48 AM in Discussion


Hey Andrxs,
I thought I'll post a reply because I suffer from your basic problem as well.
My tormentor is a little different. I think that everyone knows I'm crazy or mentally ill and I'm the only one that's unaware of it.
The reason I'm posting is I sincerely wanted to give you some advice.
I can't stop these tormenting thoughts from coming to my head, sometimes I can't easily release myself from them to do something else.
So my problem is an ongoing one and I have to deal with it often.
However I advice you to never try to use reason or logic with these kinds of thoughts.
If I keep thinking about these thoughts it would be like scratching a wound or struggling in quicksand.
So I try my best to "stop thiinking". I try to find something else to do other than thinking about this shit.
This condition I'm suffering from is also called "overthinking". I'm literally suffering from it because I can't completely stop it from happening.
Anyways I hope this helps.
Thanks for posting your problem. I don't wish for you to suffer, but it's good to know I'm not alone in this.


Well, I have a similar kind of thing sometimes. I get these kind of aggressive, nasty thoughts. For example, when I do in fact like something, I get thoughts like "that's complete trash" or if it's a person, I may get very harsh thoughts about them that are complete contrary to what my opinion of them actually is. It's weird, but I just shrug it off. 


But to OP, about thoughts being determined by external factors, imagine if they weren't. How could you function at all? The reason we can be so efficient is because we don't have to engage with every little detail and step in our functioning. Our (unconscious) intuition and its heuristics take care of most of the work. It's not that often that we have to exert conscious effort. If our thoughts weren't determined, it would mean that we would have to consciously think every single thought from nothing. We'd be sluggish and useless. You would even have to decide what you like and what you don't because otherwise it would be determined by things outside of your influence.


The whole thing seems absurd, in fact. We, as conscious agents, simply don't have the capacity to summon up a thought from nothing in the first place. I can't even imagine how that would work. 


I recommend this book, as it illuminates the divide between unconscious, "system 1" operations and conscious, "system 2", operations. It's a real eye-opener: It showed me, or rather expanded my knowledge, that the "you" that you experience to be is really not running the show like it thinks it is. 

#618628 Fear all my thoughts are determined? By God or someone that’s not me.

Posted by PerfectFifth on 11 June 2020 - 11:02 AM in Discussion

So in this case you’re saying I kind of have to be lucky right? I have to hope that whatever power there is, or that my brain, decides for me whether I’ll live a full life or go down into more suffering?

No, you decide. You are your brain, or what "you" is is part of the electro-chemical activity of the brain. It's just that what you decide you are not the ultimate author of. 


There is not you AND the brain. You and the brain are one and the same. Hence, "your brain" doesn't decide anything for you. You aren't some ghost that is steering the brain and body with a remote control.


You decide, but what you decide is rooted in things that don't ultimately depend on you, history and genes. These are the "ingredients" that make up your thoughts and decisions. That was my point. That's what you asked after all, if your thoughts are determined by something that's not you. I hope I was clear enough. 

#618622 Fear all my thoughts are determined? By God or someone that’s not me.

Posted by PerfectFifth on 11 June 2020 - 07:38 AM in Discussion

Depends on how you define "you". If "you" is only the conscious part of your cognition, then your thoughts are certainly not authored by you in almost any sense—though at the end of my post I will show why I maintain that they're not ultimately authored by you in any sense even if you include unconscious (aka subconscious) cognition. If you introspect a little, you can easily notice that you're not actually deciding your next thought; it just appears. 


Think of three different car brands. Done? Did you decide which brands to think about, or did they just pop into your mind? It was the result of unconscious processes retrieving them. These were probably the three brands you're the most familiar with due to past exposure. 


What you have conscious access to is only a tiny part of what's going on in the brain. 


And finally: yes, your thoughts are determined, probably by the deterministic laws of (macroscopic) physics. At the very least they're determined by your personality, i.e life experience (environment) and genetics. That's inescapable unless you posit magic, a soul. Even then you still have to contend with the fact that you're not able to explain why your soul is the way it is. Did you create your soul? No? Then you're not the ultimate author. 

#618574 emotionally abusing yourself

Posted by PerfectFifth on 10 June 2020 - 05:53 AM in Discussion

Thank you. You live and you learn

That's a great attitude. I was in no way insulting you or trying to be condescending, and you took my post exactly as it was intended, as nothing more than friendly advice. 

#618536 emotionally abusing yourself

Posted by PerfectFifth on 09 June 2020 - 05:16 AM in Discussion

Helpful tip: use paragraphs. Almost nobody is going to read your post because it's a nightmare to do so. The effort it takes to read your post outweighs the desire someone has to read it in 99/100 cases. 


A readable version of this post:



I think we have to find a balance between moving on with life and trying to figure out how to get out of this mess. It dissociates us from life. And always thinking about our past can further and the cause can further dissociate us from life. I need to relax. I need to feel safe. This is what we need I think. I think it is very hard to be present in a social situation if we have no feeling of self. The problem for me was a feeling of always having to think about if I was being myself is this how I would act is this what I would say, why do I feel so weird. So I could not really focus on what was going on.


My brain has not allowed me to get in touch with myself for so long. I have had a constant inner voice that does not feel normal at all and it is making me think about everything and not about what I should be thinking about. Today I cried so much and it felt so good. I finally felt that my mind could calm down when I started feeling the emotional pain of having lived like this for almost two years. It is very hard. My finally made me have access to a portion of myself it felt like. I remember before my depersonalization started I think I caused abused on myself in some way because I was ashamed of being the person I was in front of some of my friends. I did things just to prove I was as confident as my friends.


I would go up to strangers and do stupid shit just so that people would see me as a very confident person. And what surprised me was that when I walked up to a stranger and talked with them I felt very comfortable. But I felt comfortable because I was not being myself. I was not being myself so it was very easy. I did not have to deal with my anxiety, my insecurities. I talked in a different way. I behaved in a different way. Acted silly but I felt very comfortable and confident. I did the same when I had to read in front of the class. I read with a different accent. I embarrassed myself intentionally but I managed to at least deal with the situation. I knew that if I had to read as myself I would not be able to. It was much easier depersonalizing in some way in a state of mind where I was not depersonalized.


What happened was that people started to see me as a confident person. I was able to go up to strangers and say stupid shit. My friends were impressed. Man was I a stupid teenager. I was able to read with a different voice not caring about what the teacher said. But in reality I was completely different from the person I portrayed myself as. I felt the need to even further be hyper-aware and controlling so that no one would in fact find out who I was. So I always had to think, control, be hyper-aware around people so that my ego would remain intact and so that people around me would continue to think what I wanted them to think. And making sure that things would make sense for them and for me. With all of these stupid dysfunctional thinking patterns it was hard for me to just be comfortable in the world. I cried in front of my mom, opened myself up to my sister.


Showing who I really am and what I struggle with is making reality a much more peaceful place. Allowing myself to just relax in the world and be myself and admitting my insecurities and darkest secrets. It brings me so much shame in admitting all of this but I think it is very healthy. When my dp started and read that the main cause is anxiety and stress I did not accept it. How could I dare to do walk up to a stranger and do stupid shit and struggle with anxiety. I thought that it was impossible. How could a confident person like me struggle with anxiety. I had a very distorted sense of self. I think coming back to yourself means coming back to a lot of shit but it is so fucking worth it. And for me at least I am so ready to come back to reality. And if that means dealing with painful emotions, and things about myself that I really hate, I will. Trying to see where the problem lies is very difficult but it is so much easier if you really feel safe I think. I think maybe talking about my experience in some way will help people. I still struggle with a very weird feeling of self. But it seems like my brain is doing progress. 

#618504 Do you feel traumatized

Posted by PerfectFifth on 07 June 2020 - 01:36 PM in Discussion


#618494 This is what I think depersonalization is

Posted by PerfectFifth on 07 June 2020 - 03:31 AM in Discussion

Wow, it's been a while since I've read so much text that isn't based on anything. It's like they took every possible New Age crank idea and put them all together. 


Here, let me tell you what DPDR is caused by: it's caused by your consciousness being out of tune with the Vibrations of the universe. These Vibrations are kind of like the heartbeat of the universe. You have to free your Mind and reinforce the connection to your soul through meditation to become one with the universe's Vibrations again. That's the only way you can be cured of DPDR. 


See how I just DECIDED based on NOTHING what DPDR is? Yeah, that's what the author of the site did. Exactly that. There's no evidence basis for either their claim or my claim. 


I do understand the appeal in these concepts. That's the reason they're so popular. They appear to make sense intuitively. It's a fictional framework that puts the world in a neat box where everything is explained somehow. But that's all it is. And it's comforting. For example, reincarnation assuages our fear of the unknown, death; the concept of there being a soul comforts us because it makes us feel special with something permanent instead of us seeing ourselves as merely evolved primates with only a transient existence; the universe being a conscious entity and caring about us, again, comforts us because we feel like there's some kind of daddy-figure that always watches our back; and so on. Problems arise, however, when you try to apply these to actual, practical life. When you apply something that amounts to nothing but wishful thinking to practical matters, you're not going to get results. There's a reason we moved on from superstitious medicine to secular medicine, you know, actually curing illnesses. Attributing a neurological problem like DPDR to some superstitious nonsense is not going to help whatsoever, just like attributing your headache to God being mad at you isn't going to help either. 


It makes sense to me


So it makes intuitive sense to you. Is that sufficient for determining its truthfulness? Would you want to live in a world where we base our knowledge on "it makes sense to me"? I wouldn't because in that case we'd still be living on a flat earth where diseases are cured by exorcising evil spirits. 

#618456 DP Recovery Programme:

Posted by PerfectFifth on 05 June 2020 - 08:25 AM in Discussion

I smell a hefty dose of BS here. This is what he claims: "The information in this program can not be found anywhere else on the internet". Can't be found anywhere else on the Internet? Then that also means it can't be found in any published studies, which means that it's probably based on nothing but his own anecdotes. 

#618450 my sense of self is a mess

Posted by PerfectFifth on 05 June 2020 - 03:23 AM in Discussion

My sense of self is a mess. 

Okay, and?

#618376 Can't stop thinking

Posted by PerfectFifth on 03 June 2020 - 06:22 AM in The Daily Forum

I cant stop thinking.....

No one can. Thinking 24/7 is part of the human condition. Not even the best meditators can think of literally nothing. If you're not thinking, then you're dead or deeply unconscious. You're "thinking" even when you're asleep. 

#618354 "Living in a Dream | Laura Weinstein | [email protected]"

Posted by PerfectFifth on 02 June 2020 - 12:42 PM in Depersonalization & Media

“Only 2% of the population will suffer from depersonalization disorder chronically.”

Two percent is a hell of a lot of people to be referred to as “only”, and I highly doubt the number who experience it is that high. After all if it were, it would most certainly get much much more attention than idly currently does.

Yep, 2% is a huge number. Two people out of every hundred chronically DP'd? Yeah, no way. Like you said, there would be high awareness of it. 

#618326 Feeling like i was just born again every time i wake up ?

Posted by PerfectFifth on 01 June 2020 - 06:53 AM in Discussion

No, and even if I did have such sensations, I would know that they have nothing to do with what actually is, reality, so I would never find myself in this situation. It's all just part of your brain function.