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All it is is OCD?


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#1 jstandard18

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 07:31 AM

I think Ive come to the conclusion, at least for myself that all it is ocd for me. Constantly analyzing everything and making myself believe that it's all fake and I'm not real. I'm sure there's so DP in my brain obviously but a majority of it is just really bad interception and ocd. Is this possible?

#2 asdfyoyoyo

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 09:59 AM

could be possible, of course. My OCD is really pissing me off, too, it has heavy influence on my DP/DR shit and on my life in general.



#3 *Dreamer*

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Posted 26 September 2014 - 11:44 AM

I must clarify this again.
What is now called Depersonalization/Derealization Disorder is under the category of Dissociative Disorders.  I feel it should be under the category of Anxiety Disorder.

OCD is a completely seperate disorder know best for intrusive thoughts that cause anxiety, where an individual feels COMPELLED to engage in an action (over and over and over) to relieve the anxiety.  This could be fear of contamination (most well known) where the individual washes his/her hands until they bleed and still does not feel they are clean.  Comedian Howie Mandel has this -- he cannot shake hands with others, and has other "RITUALS" re: contamination.

Others may have "scrupulosity" -- which is the old term -- having to do with intrusive blasphemous religious thoughts.  To calm the anxiety, they might cross themselves HUNDREDDS of times a day, pray over and over and over under their breath for hours -- at work, etc.

Some one with OCD could have panic which leads to episodes of transient DP.  Someone could in theory have DP/DR episodes WITH the OCD, but this is in the clearest terms completely different.

No mental illnesss comes in a vacuum, hence the overlap -- two or three disorders at the same time. But NO, DP/DR itself is NOT OCD.  Many with OCD do not know what DP/DR is.

Yes, we obsess over things, but that is not the bottom line definition of OCD.  Note people are on a spectrum of severity.  As a child I had some OC TRAITS -- mainly perfectionism, which I have mostly controlled over time.  But I do NOT have OCD.

 

For SOME with OCD, DP/DR could be "co-morbid" -- existing alongside, coming WITH, or a lovely little secondary symptom that follows along.

I have had DP/DR, anxiety and depression for most of my life -- chronic DP/DR -- that is the worst and I am diagnosed with Depersonalization Disorder.  I'd say it is highly connected with my anxiety.  I do not have OCD.  I know folks with OCD ... the  criteria for that does not include DP/DR unless they come with severe anxiety associated with the panic that can come with it.

This is very simplified.


Edited by *Dreamer*, 26 September 2014 - 11:49 AM.


#4 valdezz

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 07:57 PM

Well said Dreamer its important not to perpetuate the anxiety over ones health through the misconseption of what we think this disorder might really be. I recall a similar reply was made by you over the fact that having DP/DR does not mean you're schizophrenic. The criteria for these disorders are pretty specific regardless of some symptoms overlapping with other disorders.



#5 Guest_Selig_*

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 08:08 PM

Thoughts associated with 'pure o' OCD are common with DPD.

#6 flat

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 09:50 PM

I dunno. I think maybe dp starts out as an entity all by itself. But if you have ocd tendencies, maybe we latch onto this feeling of dp as an obsession. Dp is so "shocking" that we can't let go of it because it has become a danger...like having germs on our skin for some people.



#7 seafoamneon

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Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:10 PM

Don't look too hard into it. As soon as I stopped giving self-diagnosing myself with OCD most of my intrusive thoughts and obsessions went away.



#8 *Dreamer*

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 01:20 PM

Thoughts associated with 'pure o' OCD are common with DPD.

I am not sure this is correct.  I have just done some research on this.  I cannot find the diagnosis of "Pure O" in Pubmed ... a medical article resource.  I am not clear that this is an official diagnosis in the ICD or DSM.

Dr. Sierra in his medical textbook on DP has one small paragraph discussing the possiblity of a correlation between OCD or obsessive traits.

I think many here see OCD as PART of DP/DR and it is not part of the diagnostic criteria.

Also, in looking up "Primary OCD" which people here are calling "Pure O" -- the intrusive thoughts are violent.  There are no compulsions per se (such as checking, handwashing, going back to see if someone has run over a body, constant prayer, etc.)

Wikipedia is not the greatest source, but as I said, I can find no specific medical reference to DP/DR being a TYPE of OCD, or "Primary OCD" ... DP/DR is a syndrome unto itself which may or may not be SECONDARY or existing beside DP/DR.  As I have said, in reading about those even with "Pure O" they do not describe DP.  I have a number of friends with pretty severe OCD who do not understand what my DP is ... at all.  Some may have it briefly with a panic attack, but it then fades.

It is possible that we RUMINATE excessively over our existence, over our symptoms.  We may have some OC traits, but this is not OCD, or even "Primary OCD"

I dont' think there is enough research into this.  This isn't to say I don't believe many here HAVE BOTH OCD, or "Primary OCD" AND DP/DR.  How close the connection is at this time is unclear.  The same problem exists with the concept of "Complex PTSD" ...
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Primarily Obsessional Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (also commonly called Purely Obsessional OCD, Pure-O, OCD without overt compulsions or with covert compulsions)[1] is a lesser-known form or manifestation of OCD. For people with primarily obsessional OCD, there are fewer observable compulsions, compared to those commonly seen with the typical form of OCD (checking, counting, hand-washing etc.). While ritualizing and neutralizing behaviors do take place, they are mostly cognitive in nature, involving mental avoidance and excessive rumination.[2] Primarily obsessional OCD often takes the form of horrific intrusive thoughts of a distressing or violent nature.


Primarily obsessional OCD has been called "one of the most distressing and challenging forms of OCD."[3] People with this form of OCD have "distressing and unwanted thoughts pop into [their] head frequently", and the thoughts "typically center on a fear that you may do something totally uncharacteristic of yourself, something ...potentially fatal...to yourself or others."[4] The thoughts "quite likely, are of an aggressive or sexual nature."[5]

Common intrusive thoughts/obsessions include themes of:
    •    Responsibility: with an excessive concern over someone's well-being marked specifically by guilt over believing they have harmed or might harm someone, either on purpose or inadvertently.[9]
    •    Sexuality: including recurrent doubt over one's sexual orientation (also called HOCD or "homosexual OCD"). People with this theme display a very different set of symptoms than those actually experiencing an actual crisis in sexuality. One major difference is that people who have HOCD report being attracted sexually towards the opposite sex prior to the onset of HOCD, while homosexual people whether in the closet or repressed have always had such same sex attractions for lifelong.[10] The question "Am I gay" takes on a pathological form. Many people with this type of obsession are in healthy and fulfilling romantic relationships, either with members of the opposite sex, or the same sex (in which case their fear would be "Am I straight?").[6][11][12]
    •    Violence: which involves a constant fear of violently harming oneself or loved ones or persistent worry that one is a pedophile and might harm a child.[11][13] Subjects who are fearful they might be pedophiles often incorrectly refer to themselves with the term "POCD" to mean "pedophile-OCD."
    •    Religiosity: manifesting as intrusive thoughts or impulses revolving around blasphemous and sacrilegious themes.[13][14]
    •    Health: including consistent fears of having or contracting a disease (different from hypochondriasis) through seemingly impossible means (for example, touching an object that has just been touched by someone with a disease) or mistrust of a diagnostic test.[13][14]
    •    Relationship obsessions (ROCD): in which someone in a romantic relationship endlessly tried to ascertain the justification for being or remaining in that relationship. It includes obsessive thoughts to the tune of "How do I know this is real love?" "How do I know he/she is the one?" "Am I attracted enough to this person?" or "Am I in love with this person, or is it just love?" "Does he/she really love me?" and/or obsessive preoccupation with the perceived flaws of the intimate partner. [15][16] The agony of attempting to arrive at certainty leads to an intense and endless cycle of anxiety because it is impossible to arrive at a definite answer.[17]

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Please correct me if anyone finds a clear connection between OCD, Primary OCD and DP/DR.  I have not been able to find it in reputable sources.  Searches come back with self-diagnosis (actually some from this site) and actual stories of those with Primary OCD who do not mention DP/DR.
Yes, we obsess, we ruminate, but that is not either of these diagnoses though BOTH can occur certainly in one person.  I have DP/DR, many types of anxiety, and depression.  Each of these disorders is distinct.  One can have one without the other.  I would say the closest correlation is anxiety -- and panic.
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People are driving themselves up the wall trying to figure out if they have one disorder or another. DP/DR are perceptual distortions -- their true cause is NOT understood.  I believe it is related to a fight/flight response, high anxiety, fear of abandonment, etc.  In my case, I believe abuse contributed significantly -- I was afraid and alone since a little girl.  My anxiety was constantly high ... constant high anxiety causes changes in one's brain, changes in how one thinks.  Children who are abused in various ways are at high risk for a number of mental disorders including depression and anxiety.
Those with a bad rec drug experience seem to have a panic attack that leads to this.

I also see too much self-diagnosis. Over some 40+ years I have never been diagnosed with OCD.  I have seen ever sort of MH professional from M.D., psychoanalyst, ACSW, Ph.D., medical residents whom I education (they turn over each year).

IMHO, YMMV
 


Edited by *Dreamer*, 01 October 2014 - 01:44 PM.


#9 *Dreamer*

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 01:51 PM

I am finding articles DEBATING "Primary OCD" -- I don't know if it's in the DSM-5 as I haven't been able to read it yet -- too expensive and I can't get a copy out of the Med Libary -- they are all out.  Also, DP/DR are not mentioned as part of OCD and vice versa.
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Depress Anxiety. 2011 Jun;28(6):495-500. doi: 10.1002/da.20820. Epub 2011 Apr 20.

Myth of the pure obsessional type in obsessive--compulsive disorder.

Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Several studies have identified discrete symptom dimensions in obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), derived from factor analyses of the individual items or symptom categories of the Yale-Brown Obsessive-Compulsive Scale Symptom Checklist (YBOCS-SC). This study aims to extend previous work on the relationship between obsessions and compulsions by specifically including mental compulsions and reassurance-seeking. Because these compulsions have traditionally been omitted from prior factor analytic studies, their association to what have been called "pure obsessions" may have been overlooked.

METHOD:

Participants (N = 201) were recruited from two multi-site randomized clinical treatment trials for OCD. The YBOCS-SC was used to assess OCD symptoms, as it includes a comprehensive list of obsessions and compulsions, arranged by content category. Each category was given a score based on whether symptoms were present and if the symptom was a primary target of clinical concern, and a factor analysis was conducted. Mental compulsions and reassurance-seeking were considered separate categories for the analysis.

RESULTS:

Using an orthogonal geomin rotation of 16 YBOCS-SC categories/items, we found a five-factor solution that explained 67% of the total variance. Inspection of items that composed each factor suggests five familiar constructs, with mental compulsions and reassurance-seeking included with sexual, aggressive, and religious obsessions (unacceptable/taboo thoughts).

CONCLUSIONS:

This study suggests that the concept of the "pure obsessional" (e.g., patients with unacceptable/taboo thoughts yet no compulsions) may be a misnomer, as these obsessions were factorially associated with mental compulsions and reassurance-seeking in these samples. These findings may have implications for DSM-5 diagnostic criteria.

-----------------------

[Misnomer meaning "wrong or inaccurate use of a name or term"

© 2011 Wiley-Liss, Inc.


Edited by *Dreamer*, 01 October 2014 - 01:54 PM.


#10 Guest_Selig_*

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:11 PM

It's anecdotal, I don't know of any studies conducted to show a link between depersonalization and OCD. 

 

I do, however, know that many people with DPD can develop intrusive thoughts that are distressing in nature, including violence. These appear to reflect the thoughts that can arise in 'pure-o.' It also seems like the inability to regulate thoughts as before would be indicative of obsessiveness, such as not being able to get rid of a thought and rumination. 

 

There's definitely an obsessive nature of DPD, I wonder if it is observable in the brain like OCD?

 

Thanks for the links. 



#11 *Dreamer*

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:37 PM

It's anecdotal, I don't know of any studies conducted to show a link between depersonalization and OCD. 

 

I do, however, know that many people with DPD can develop intrusive thoughts that are distressing in nature, including violence. These appear to reflect the thoughts that can arise in 'pure-o.' It also seems like the inability to regulate thoughts as before would be indicative of obsessiveness, such as not being able to get rid of a thought and rumination. 

 

There's definitely an obsessive nature of DPD, I wonder if it is observable in the brain like OCD?

 

Thanks for the links. 

No problem.  I like trying to sort this out.
My question is as you say it is anecdotal how do you know "that many people w/DPD develop said intrusive thoughts?"
I think a good number of people have "bad thoughts" they don't act upon.  I have thought, literally, what would it be like to kill someone.  But that thought never occupied every waking moment.  I have also never FEARED I would act on that.  It was just something I rolled around in my mind.

IDK. More research needs to be done on this.  Interesting topic though.



#12 *Dreamer*

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Posted 01 October 2014 - 02:39 PM

Oh, am I procrastinating today, LOL.






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