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Depersonalization and Meditation


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#25 Guest_odysseus_*

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:02 PM

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/2191357

"From a review of the literature on meditation and depersonalization and interviews conducted with six meditators, this study concludes that: 1) meditation can cause depersonalization and derealization;

 

If it causes DP/DR, it´s not real meditation. Real meditation can help DP/DR go away for sure, I´ve tried it myself.



#26 JJ70

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:28 PM

If it causes DP/DR, it´s not real meditation. Real meditation can help DP/DR go away for sure, I´ve tried it myself.

 

Sorry Odysseus, many things can trigger DP/DR and this is definitely one of them. I won't argue over the paradox that it can help too. But it is100% one of the major triggers....maybe people do it wrong (I don't know); but it is 100% one of the things that can trigger DP/DR...a pretty common one too.   



#27 JJ70

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 04:36 PM

true recovery from DPD is rare, but very possible

 

Susto, I have so much time for you, but recovery is common and achievable.

 

and again the myth that meditation causes DPD

 

And again, I have so much respect for you as you are often the voice of reason on this forum. I don't say "meditation causes DP/DR" but is a very common trigger (possibly the third after anxiety and drugs)....I have personal experience on this one and a couple of decades talking to others. It is also one of the triggers medicine and science has a reasonable (I say reasonable compared to their poor understanding of this condition) understanding and evidence of.

 

Reply to my PM mate (I'm not full of shit honestly)



#28 Midnight

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

If it causes DP/DR, it´s not real meditation. Real meditation can help DP/DR go away for sure, I´ve tried it myself.

 

No. Sorry, but just no. 

 

If it makes it go away, then why are you posting here?

 

Meditation can mean many things, but true meditation is nothing to do with 'feeling better'. The sages of the world who sought awakening didn't seek awakening to 'feel better'. 

 

Meditation that is used by people in Western society as a health benefit is still a FORM of meditation, but it isn't 'real' in the sense that it is still just a desire to 'feel better'. 

 

Real meditation is a quest for self-realisation, not improving your breathing or getting rid of anxiety. There is a clear difference and those of you defending it likely have little experience with it. 

 

Read below for more information.

http://www.swamij.co...elf-inquiry.htm



#29 Guest_Delicate_*

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:07 PM

So it's gone now is it?

I got depersonalization through a particularly poignant session of meditation where my sense of self seemed to disappear.

Meditation is NOT healthy and should not be recommended to anyone. Anyone who says otherwise has neither the experience nor the intellect required to make such a claim.

I used to meditate, under guidance of a teacher, and it was actually one of the most wonderful activities I ever did. It removed my panic attacks from my life and I just had to thank my teacher for it, as others on the class didn't seem to click with it, yet it was a godsend for me.
So I think it's fair to say that what works for some, may not work for others, but don't forget that it works for some.

Of course I think that you *can* meditate incorrectly and then it can cause harm. When I meditated it was a combination of breathing techniques and visualisations. Pretty gentle (but wonderful) stuff.

#30 Guest_Delicate_*

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 08:18 PM

true recovery from DPD is rare, but very possible
 
and again the myth that meditation causes DPD


Where is this evidence for it being rare?

Think of all the people who have come and gone from the forum... There must be thousands of success stories in that bunch of folk alone.

#31 Midnight

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:26 PM

I can't believe that anyone would deny that meditation could cause chronic constant depersonalization. I am living fucking proof! 

 

I wasn't depersonalised.

Then I meditated deeply and had a panic attack

Now I am constantly depersonalised. 

 

Barely anyone who meditates has had panic attacks like these because barely anyone who meditates actually DOES self-inquiry and goes into DEEP meditation. 

 

If you were to actually do it, as the gurus and sages of history have instructed to do it, you would most likely experience exactly what I have experienced, depending on the kind of person you are and the kind of mind you have.



#32 JJ70

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:37 PM

I wasn't depersonalised.

Then I meditated deeply and had a panic attack

Now I am constantly depersonalised. 

 

As I said, one of the most common causes and well documented. Just because you mediate doesn't mean you will get DP/DR but it's a fairly common trigger for sufferers, many go instantly into Chronic DP/DR without any anxiety or panic. Still on the upside most I have spoken to have recovered. 



#33 Guest_Phantasm_*

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:26 PM

I can't believe that anyone would deny that meditation could cause chronic constant depersonalization. I am living fucking proof! 

 

I wasn't depersonalised.

Then I meditated deeply and had a panic attack

Now I am constantly depersonalised. 

 

Barely anyone who meditates has had panic attacks like these because barely anyone who meditates actually DOES self-inquiry and goes into DEEP meditation. 

 

If you were to actually do it, as the gurus and sages of history have instructed to do it, you would most likely experience exactly what I have experienced, depending on the kind of person you are and the kind of mind you have.

 

Midnight, I respect your view, and that it may have triggered some problems, but I'll speak frankly if you don't mind, without intention of causing offence:

 

Even just going into deep relaxation can trigger a panic attack in some people, when there is fear just below the surface. It maybe the fear of letting go. That if we relinquish control, bad things will happen -a kind of magical thinking. We have to keep a grip, a hold, or it all falls apart. A fear cycle can then begin or one we already had and touched on is reinforced. Letting go is very powerful, and can be intense when there is trapped levels of distress there, but just below those are deeper levels of peace and relief.

Doing this wasn't really any different to me, because I was so traumatised anyway, there wasn't a lot more fear could do, as I was living it anyway. I appreciate this may have given me an advantage because there wasn't often much contrast to affect me.

 

I do think that when you talk about self-inquiry and going deep you are confusing things. I suspect you meditated, started to hit a deeper state while still conscious enough to freak yourself out with conscious abstract philosophising, panicked and spent your time since trying to stay above that fear. Although not in meditation, that's kinda like what I did with reality itself. Self inquiry is a "doing" in conscious states that blocks going deep. When you go deep it's more like a happening. Things seem to unfold themselves, and I believe that's because the mind is designed to naturally unkink blocks and resolve problems, when it is allowed to do so. Deeper states, and I accept they are not always easy to access when we are troubled, it takes patience when we are doing it, can be freaky at first, like a dragon thrashing around off the chain (force of imagination/subconscious), but that is countered by the deeper state, that affects true physiological changes and protects you like a warm cocoon.

So you discern between what is real meditation and what isn't, but I say all paths lead to the same place: You. And that the difference is only on the scattered surface.

 

Confusion comes from ideas about emptiness and being nothing, but these are just ways of explaining something that a depressed mind will interpret badly. Trying to consciously force such concepts in meditation is not going to help, because another way of putting it is "clarity" "space" "peace" "awareness". The absence of disturbance not being "emptiness" but feeling completely and radiantly present.

 

So yeah, I've rambled on abit too long, but that's why I talked about meditations using imagination to deepen state and relax rather than trying to plough yourself crazy with "self-inquiry". It's an experience, not an idea.   



#34 JJ70

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

Midnight, I respect your view, and that it may have triggered some problems, but I'll speak frankly if you don't mind, without intention of causing offence:

 

Even just going into deep relaxation can trigger a panic attack in some people, when there is fear just below the surface. It maybe the fear of letting go.

 

Many people, have had their DP/DR triggered by meditation without any panic attack. I'm not saying meditation is a bad thing but their are many many cases where it has triggered DP/DR.....so have a lot other things just using smoking pot for one small example. Maybe they got the meditation wrong, I truly don't know...but the fact remains many cases of DP/DR have been triggered through meditating.

 

And for anybody reading I wouldn't spend too much time focusing on what caused your DP/DR but on recovering from it. This was one the the main things that helped my recovery and I know this is true of many others who have recovered too.



#35 Midnight

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:07 PM

As I said, one of the most common causes and well documented. Just because you mediate doesn't mean you will get DP/DR but it's a fairly common trigger for sufferers, many go instantly into Chronic DP/DR without any anxiety or panic. Still on the upside most I have spoken to have recovered. 

Indeed. So presumably I now have to pay you to find out how they did recover? :?



#36 JJ70

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:28 PM

Indeed. So presumably I now have to pay you to find out how they did recover? :?

 

 

Harsh; I never refer to any paid publications I'm associated with, of which there is one. It is also "not for profit" and includes ongoing contact via email (not to the standard we would like as this is voluntary...do the math it does not even cover expenses). Most of what is there we also give away for free, check my posts here and elsewhere. 

 

Any difficulties or issues PM me, I don't post on here or elsewhere for any other reason than to help.

 

JJ






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